Rules for 10 December 2004

Your Rules for Friday, December 10, 2004

Shosuro infiltrator and "original personality"

Hi all, This has been asked before a few times but never answered. Who exactly does the "original personality" on the card refer to if the infiltrator has been attached and discarded repeatedly during a single battle?

A: The very first personality it was attached to this turn

B: The very first surviving personality it was attached to this turn

C: The very last personality it was attached to prior to the end of the battle

D: The very last surviving personality it was attached to prior to the end of the battle

E: Any personality it was ever attached to till the end of the battle (player's choice)

F: Any surviving personality it was ever attached to till the end of the battle (player's choice)

G: Someone else that I left out...

Battle: Discard this card: If this card is attached to a Scorpion Clan Personality, create a 3F/1C Scorpion Clan Samurai Personality card in his army. After the battle ends, remove the created Personality from the game, then return this card to play attached to its original Personality.

H: The Personality it was attached to when you discarded it. If that Personality is not in play, the final effect does not occur and Shosuro Infiltrator doesn't return to play.

Regions; Fortifications; token cards

Only for curiosity. The statement that Regions are considered in the battlefield whenever are battles in the Provinces they are attached to, is supported by:

1.A Ruling made by Jeff on 29 Nov 2004 1.B DE Rulebook 1.C Old Ruling or precedent. Please, could you show it?

Battles used to be explained as taking place at the Province. Then the term "battlefield" was invented to try and make the Province, Battlefield, and Battle all distinct terms.

"Battlefield" did not exist as a term until recently, so you won't find it in a rulebook. Jeff's ruling is all you need for now.

2.- Fortifications

What about Fortifications. Are Fortifications considered in the battlefield whenever are battles in the Provinces they are attached to?

This is the same circumstance as with the Regions. They are considered to be at the Battlefield associated with the Province they are on.

3.- Token cards

In the WoE Rulesheet I can read "Things that count as both tokens and cards follow the rules of cards."

My opponnet plays Stern Reprimand on my Seruma. She has one Ashigaru Follower token. I don't want to dishonor Seruma, and choose the "sends the card back to its owner’s hand" path. What happens?

3.1 The Ashigaru Follower token is removed from the game (as per DE Rulebook: Tokens) 3.2 The Ashigaru Follower token goes to my hand (as per WoE Rulesheet: Tokens) I have to use a proxy for it, backed exactly as the rest of my Fate cards. 3.3 Other. Please, explain.

According to Jeff in email:

"As a general rule, tokens leaving the game if they leave play does not stop the original method of leaving play from occurring or being successful. I'm pretty sure this is a reversal of at least one ruling I've made."

In light of that, I'd think you successfully move the Token from play to your hand and then remove it from the game immediately.

Rules Team Answers - Duel Resolution and Multiple Simultaneous Destruction

The Rules Team has been hashing out we wanted to deal with the issue of multiple effects killing the same things at the same time, and also the ordering of effects that are the result of duels.

First, addressing multiple destruction effects resolving simultaneously against the same card:

While dealing with this is generally to be avoided because of response effects, Jeff's decided that it is more important to respect the fact that the two effects themselves (ignoring outside effects) don't conflict with eachother. In the interests of keeping the rule as simple and intuitive as possible, - BOTH - effects are fully considered to have destroyed the same card at the same time.

Avoiding conflicts caused by such a circumstance will just have to be focused on in the writing of cards.

Second, addressing effects on Duel Resolution, Jeff recommended this:

"Multiple results apply in the order they're written.

If there is no explicit result for losing, "destroy the loser" occurs after the results of winning (if any).

If another result of winning or losing is added, it is appended to the ones that already exist (if any).

If multiple results are added at the same time, the active player decides which order they're added in. Each one added is still added after all existing results."

So, for example, if you used Show Me Your Stance w/ Uso Sensei the following would happen on Duel Resolution:

"1. The winner gains 2 Honor. 2. Dishonor the loser. 3. Move the loser home bowed. 4. Destroy the loser."

And if Hida Daizu loses a Steel on Steel involving Uso Sensei, this happens:

1. Daizu is Destroyed (original effect of the duel). - Daizu can come back to life with his trait. 2. Daizu is Destroyed (additional effect of the duel thanks to Uso Sensei). - If Daizu did not return to play, this effect fails.

Thanks folks, - Marty Lund Deputy Rules Monkey

Reconciling Kakita with Mirumoto [RULES]

Hey folks,

I got the confirmation I needed from Jeff on this one.

Kakita's "must focus at least once in able" trait roughly translates into "can not opt to Strike unless you've already Focused once or can not Focus."

Thanks, - Marty Lund Deputy Rules Monkey

Marty, Zen, Anyone

Comments Below:

I'm trying to explain to some folks what happens when an action is canceled for becoming illegal and I can't find the sections to quote in the Rulebook or the Rules Archive.

[MARTY] I think you're looking for too general of a term. You're not looking for "becoming illegal." You're looking for the particular problem that screws up the play.

Can someone please help me out in fiding those sections?

Normally, if an action card is canceled by another player's card effect, the action card does not go back into your hand. For instance, if I play a Kolat Assassin on your bowed Koto and you drop a Balance in Nothingness, I don't get the Kolat Assassin back to play again later.

[MARTY] Yes. That's covered on page 72 of the Diamond Edition Rulebook under Canceling Actions and Negating Effects.

If I play Tribute To Your House and follow up with asecond Tribute To Your House while Naga Storm Mirumoto Mountain is in effect, though, the second province's destruction will be negated by Naga Storm and the action will be canceled *because costs were not paid*, thus making it an illegal action. If an action is canceled because it became illegal between the beginning of the targeting step and the end of the paying costs step, the action stops and the action card returns to your hand.

...but I can't find that in the Rulebook or in the Rules Archive.

[MARTY] "If all or part of the cost of using an action or bringing a card into play is prevented, the player trying to take the action or play the card may either use further resources to complete the payment, or allow the attempt to be canceled. If canceled, the player returns the card to where it came from and does not receive a refund on any remainign costs, Gold or otherwise, already paid." (Diamond Edition Rulebook, page 72, paragraph 3)

- Marty Lund Deputy Rules monkey

Marty, Zen, Anyone

[MARTY] "If all or part of the cost of using an action or bringing a card into play is prevented, the player trying to take the action or play the card may either use further resources to complete the payment, or allow the attempt to be canceled. If canceled, the player returns the card to where it came from and does not receive a refund on any remainign costs, Gold or otherwise, already paid." (Diamond Edition Rulebook, page 72, paragraph 3)

Just adding something quick here: there is no limit to how many times you can re-try to pay a cost. After Naga Storms... negates the Province destruction, you are still in the "pay costs" step of Tribute and may try to destroy the Province again, if you wish, to make the action succeed.

Tsuruchi's Retreat

Normally, when something lets you put something into play ignoring costs and/or ignoring entering play effects, it says so.

Tsuruchi's Retreat does not say that you ignore costs. Do you have to pay the gold cost of a holding that you're stealing with Tsuruchi's Retreat in addition to the 2 gold cost for using the ability?

Yes. If it does not waive / ignore / pay for the cost of the card, then you must pay the cost of your card.

No Hiding Place vs. cancelling

Can an action be cancelled by, for example, Kyuuden Ikoma, if its RA effect has been modified by 'No Hiding Place'?

Yes. "No Hiding Place" is timed well before the timing required for Kyuden Ikoma. It happens during the Targeting of an Action, and Kyuden Ikoma happens before the Effects of the Action would resolve.

Is this in harmony with the Ruling "Reactions played in response to an action (e.g., Faith In My Clan, Kyuden Ikoma) must be played before the action produces any effects (e.g., Fear, a Ranged Attack) or has one of its effects modified (e.g., The Face of Fear, Arrows From the Woods). [JA, 8 December 2003, ZF, 10 December 2003]"?

Yes. That's a timing Ruling about Reactions to Actions that don't otherwise specify when you play them. It means that you play Actions like Faith in My Clan before any Effects of the Action resolve (and could therefore be responded to).

No Hiding Place doesn't modify any Effect - it modifies a Targeting Instruction of the Action. Costs, targeting instructions, Reaction triggers, "even if bowed," etc. - none of those are among the Action's Effects.

That should cover everything for Friday. If I missed your question, please repost it with the flag [RULES] as part of your Clear and Distinct subject line. I'll get back to you at the first opportunity.