Rules for 21 October 2004

The Rules for Thursday, October 21, 2004

- Musume Mura and targeting

"Limited: Bow Musume Mura to discard a card from one of your Provinces and fill it face-up with a discarded (not dead) Personality from your discard pile."

Since you don't "search" but instead you "fill" with a discarded Personality, does this action target the Personality from your discard pile?

Yes. Some times you may have to choose between more than one Personality in the Discard Pile. Since you sometimes have to choose you must ALWAYS target.

Can the Personality be the same card you discarded from your Province?

No. Discarding the card is part of the Effect. You must choose a legal target (a personality in your Discard Pile) BEFORE any effects resolve. So, when you have to target, the Personality is still in your Province, and thusly can not be chosen.

Nobumoto Exp - Naval/Calvary

Nobumoto Exp Open: Once per turn, Nobumoto gains the Cavalry trait and loses the Naval trait.

I use Chizuko to remove Naval from my opponents Nobumoto. He then tries to give Nobumoto Calvary. I think that is an illegal action. There is no cost:effect with this action or it would be obvious, such as, Remove Naval:Gain Calvary. Does Nobumoto need to have Naval in order to use this action?

Not at all. As you said, there is no cost vs. effect on the card. Both instructions (gain Cavalry, lose Naval) are effects. Having some or all of the effects of an action be Negated / Fail does not make an Action illegal. As long as you have a valid target, pay all costs, and abide play restrictions (like "Once Per Turn" on this ability, or Presence and Relevance for Battle Actions) you shouldn't have any legality problems taking an Action.

So, the fact that Nobumoto has no Naval to lose doesn't hinder his ability one bit.

Musume Mura/Shrine of Fu Leng

I hope that this kind of ruling will be resolved with the templating changes. You are using two very similarly worded cards (minus the search part) to do the exact same thing, only one is targeted one is not. It's like having your cake and eating it too. Shrine should be targetted if Mura is targetted, Mura should be search if Shrine is search, there is no fundamental difference in the way the cards work minus 1 word difference, which I assume was simply because it was "intent".

Shrine of Fu Leng is an anomaly. There is no good reason for it to use the term "search" in regards to the discard pile, and it was not used intentionally. However, it WAS used, and because it was used, different rules apply to it and it doesn't function the way similar cards that don't use that term function. That is the way it is going to stay, because although it is dissimilar, there is still a definitive way in which it works, and there are no power level issues with that working.

Rules for 5 October 2004

See this is my whole point. If Bonds of Fate never enters play and I never control it and it is never “my card”, how can it be “my card effect”?

Because it is "your card effect," and not "an effect of your card."

The distinction is important.

Is it my card effect even though it is NOT“my card”?

"Card effects" are effects that happen to be from cards. "Your effects" are effects that you are responsible for.

Is it indeed my card effect because I own the card? What about card played that I do Not own, such as a Bonds of fate I stole with the Tck Tck Warrens?

It has nothing to do with ownership. If has to do with being responsible for the effect taking place - controlling a card with effect-producing traits, resolving a card, or taking an action are the most common examples that come to mind. These are all effects that when they say, "you," or give instructions that are for an unspecified player always refer to you.

The following are all examples of "your card effects":

1 - The on-going Effects of a Trait on a card you control

2 - The Effects of an Event you resolve

3 - The Effects of an Action you play

#3 is important. Even an Action from a card that you don't control are "your Action" when you play them - such as the Action on Gifts and Favors or even your use of your opponent's "Jester" card's Action which says any player may use its ability. Such Actions are "your Actions" and their effects are "your effects." If they happen to be Actions on cards, then their effects are "your card effects."

You - played - the Action on Bond's of Fate, so it is - your action - and its effects are - your effects -. It happens to be a card, so they are also card effects. Hence, "Your card effects."

Jigoku Sensei Question

Jigoku Sensei specifices that you must discard a Shugenja as part of the cost of bringing an Oni into play. Where are you discarding that Shugenja from? Does it have to be a Shugenja in play, or can it be a Personality card in a Province or a Follower card in hand?

It must be a Shugenja you control, since it says, "discard one of your Shugenja." You only control Shugenja when they are in play, so discarding a Shugenja from a Province or Hand would not meet the cost as they would not be "your shugenja."

It is a little confusing, but Jigoku Sensei says "discard" as opposed to "destroy" so that death-avoidance effects like Pit of Blood or Feign Death can't be used to circumvent its cost.

That should cover all the rules questions for Thursday. If I missed your question unrelated to Dawn of the Empire, please repost it with the flag [RULES] as part of your Clear and Distinct subject line. I'll get back to you at the first opportunity.