Rules for 16 June 2004

Your Rules for Wednesday, June 16, 2004

Rules Question - Becoming Unable to Perform in mid-Action

Hello again, folks.

I'm forwarding you this answer from Jeff, about Performing Actions, just for the sake of clarity.

In short, the requirements that a bowed Personality not Perform Actions that issue Challenges is only applied when initially selecting the Performing Personality (targeting).

After that, he or she can bow during the course of the Action without any sort of complications. I think most everyone played it that way anyway, but I wanted to get something down in print from the horse's mouth so there wasn't a nebulous gap in the rules.

What happens with Taneji? Is the Action canceled due violating page 54's demand that he not Perform such an Action in a bowed state? Or does that rule only apply when first selecting targets?

It's only used to determine whether he is allowed to start the action. This does not fall under the category of one of the action's targets becoming illegal.

And here is my general reply to the debate / question thread about the use of the word "while" in the text of many effects.

"while"

See, here the crux of the matter is that effects end when their duration expires. That makes some things harder to pull off with Actions than it would be with cards that stay in play.

When you "renew" or "get back" what was lost in expiration, it is actually the result of a new effect applied to the card in question, not the old one somehow getting "resurrected" or "restored."

That's why you can get around "In Search of the Future" by by having Kan'ok'ticheck nonexp or Yoritomo Kumiko xp. move out of and back into a battle. The first bonus ends when they leave and a new bonus begins when they enter. In Search only worked on the first bonus, which is gone.

Now, this is all fine and dandy for Personalities like Kumiko and strongholds like Kenson Gakka. They stay around all the time and their traits are always actively "looking" for when they should be triggered.

This is not fine for Actions on cards like Show of Good Faith, Kharmic Vengeance, or even many Events like Time of Loyalty. These Actions and Events are one-shot occurrences. They don't stay in play and constantly produce effects by way of their traits.

So, to get the same effect with cards that don't stick around, L5R "nests" effects.

Basically, to work around the fact that Actions don't stay around in play to generate effects with traits, you need to have a long-duration effect (the "parent") that actually creates a shorter-duration effect (the "child"). Kharmic Vengeance is a pretty good example.

It has a "parent" effect with the duration "until the end of the turn." That effect creates a "child" effect, "cards in each unit must target cards in the other unit with the actions they perform" with the duration, "while these units are in the same battle."

So, during the course of a turn, with moving in and out of various battles, you could begin and end several different occurrences of "cards in each unit must target cards in the other unit with the actions they perform." And that's how you simulate the way traits work with one-shot plays like Actions and most Events.

The Daimyo's Command is the same way, it has a "parent" effect that lasts for the rest of the game. It creates "child" effects of giving Personalities a special ability, with the duration of "while they are Clan Champions."

shadowlands cost

can the shadowlands refuse kakita mia's exp ability (accept the duel or lose 4 honor) and if they cant,

They can't. Mai says that you can refuse the duel only, "by losing 4 Family Honor." The Shadowlands player is simply incapable of paying such a cost.

then(im not asking for my self but for some local players) why can they refuse the iajitsu challange and why can they bring cards into play that say lose x honor?

Well, for one thing, those Honor Losses are not Costs like the Honor Loss involved with refusing Mai's challenge.

For another, the Dishonor / Lose Honor effect of Iaijutsu Challenge is a separate effect from the challenge effect and the consequent refusal / acceptance. When you get to that part of the effects (after the challenge and duel if any), the Action looks back to see whether you refused the duel and THEN it causes you an Honor Loss with a new effect if you refused.

Fwd from Jeff: Egg of P'an Ku and the Hosue of Tao

Another piece of information from Jeff.

Using the Egg of P'an Ku on a Shadowlands Personality is not considered "bringing a Shadowlands Personality into play".

Rules Question - To Start a Dark Path, Dishonor, and Enlightenment

Here is another reply to a question I needed to punt to Jeff.

In this case, playing a Dark Ring under To Start a Dark Path to win the game, when the honor loss would make you lose the game, becomes an "Active Player Chooses" situation between "win the game" and "lose the game."

P. 55 says you lose Honor "when" (not after) you bring the Ring into play. P. 61 says when you have all the Rings in play, you win. So the drop below -19 and the win occur at the same time. P. 50 says you lose as soon as you go below -19, so the drop below -19 and the loss occur at the same time. That's how I read it.

Fwd from Jeff: Pregame effects order

Here is another answer from Jeff regarding Kyuden Hitomi and House of Tao's timing.

Hey Jeff,

I need your help on this one.

I think I have everything figured out except for Kyuden Hitomi vs. House of Tao. Do they have the same timing, or does one go before the other?

They cannot be done simultaneously out in the open for fairness reasons. We also do not yet know who is going to be the first player, so we have no non-random method of determining which player would have the right to decide which occurs first. They have to be done simultaneously in secret.

"opposing" question

Is my personality counts as opposed before start of the battle ?? (for example when another battle is currently resolved)

A card is opposed by other cards when it is in an army opposing the other army with those cards. There are armies at battles that are not the current battle, so "opposing" can be true in non-current battles.

However, Actions that refer to "opposing" in battle typically won't be legal outside of the current battle due to the rules on page 81 of the Diamond Edition Rulebook.

Oh, and Akodo Ieshige already has Errata / Clarification entries in the Archives in case he was the source of your "opposing" confusion.

That looks like everything from Wednesday that I was responsible for. If I missed your question, please repost it with the flag [RULES] inside a clear subject line and I'll get back to you at the first opportunity.