Rules for August 14th

Hi everyone!

General Rules, Faction affiliations: "'X Personality' is synonymous with 'X Clan Personality.'" [ZF, 24 May 2001]"

That ruling is from before the release of Gold Edition. The Gold Edition rulebook causes "xxx Clan" to be indivisible and treated as if the phrase were a single word attribute. Almost all Gold Edition cards have the word "Clan" added where needed. One thing this rule does is make an absolute distinction between "Dragon Clan" and "Dragon". Older unreprinted cards, of course, have to have the word Clan implicitly added as needed.

That fact doesn't overturn the earlier ruling. Gold edition cards are intentionally more consistent about templating, but there will always be occasional variances between cards. There's just too much information that needs to be covered by card text. The earlier ruling still stands, and applies to the Gold Edition Dai Tsuchi.

The Gold Edition rules (page 57) are a bit vague as to exactly when the battle ends, but implies that units return home AFTER the resolution segment. If this is so ruled, it clears up the retroactivity of Rallying Cry, but create serious problems with Counterattack. I would suggest adding an end of battle Segment, where (after reactions to the end of resolution if any) all cleanup occurs, and change Counterattack to take effect after the end of the Attack Phase.

I can see your interpretation, but that's a rather significant change, and I'll have to check upstairs to find out whether or not they want that to stick. As for adding a Cleanup segment...probably not. L5R is a complex enough game as it is, I really don't think we need to be making major changes to the foundation of the rules at this point. It might be something for the design team to keep in mind for the next major revision of the rules, but I wouldn't bet on it until then.

I'm still unsure about that :

Can SLH, Spawning Ground and SoB players use Investigation to cancel kolat, ninja and assassin actions ?

Nope. Investigation is an action that will cause an unconditional loss to another player, making it completely out of bounds for Shadowlands players.

Judgment of Toshiken - I assume that this undoes effect that make a duel use a statistic other than Chi, if the effect come from something other than the card that started the duel.

Yes.

Political Dissent - I assume you can target yourself and another player. Are multiple copies cumulative?

I don't see any reason why they wouldn't be.

Rallying Cry - Many of the problems with this card would disappear if it received the same change as Fight to the Setting Sun.

That you could only play it in a battle where you had units? That you play it at the end of the resolution segment, as opposed to after it ends? Either way, I don't think that Rallying Cry is the problem. It's a card that works intuitively with its current wording, and people have been using it with complete understanding of how it worked since Imperial. The problem is that timing rules have changed to the point where Counterattack happens off the same timing window as Rally. *That's* a problem. I think messing with Rallying Cry is the wrong way to fix it.

A Samurai's Fury - If it used to take a Terrain replacing action, and the Terrain used is an IMMEDIATE Terrain, will the effect of new Terrain take place?

Assuming that the one action you get from Samurai's Fury both destroys the terrain in play *and* plays a new one, yes, an Immediate Terrain will resolve at the point it is played. A Delayed terrain will still just sit there and do nothing.

Take the Initiative - Who goes first if 2 or more players try to play it?

The last person who plays it. You would determine normal first turn, with honor plus cut, and then the person who isn't going first has the chance to play Take. If he passes his opportunity to React, it goes back to the guy who's supposed to be going first. If the first player passes, then the game starts. If either player plays a Take, then the other player has a chance to Take back, otherwise the game starts.

To the Last Man - If you are the attacker, this is the last battle or your attack phase, the defender played counterattack, and some of his relevant Personalities and/or Followers have changes in their Forces during the extra battle phase, are the old or new values used to determine how much your opponent must destroy?

Force bonuses that last until the end of the Battle only will not be counted for To the Last Man. Force bonuses that last until the end of the turn that get played during the Counterattack *will* count for the force calculation, though.

Turtle's Shell - Does it target your card?

Absolutely.

The Celestial Pattern - Is the ruling that Avoid Fate cannot be used for the next Event still operative? That ruling was based on the assumption that the affect Event never resolves, but the Gold Edition version of TCP specifies that the next Event DOES resolve (with its effects negated).

No, that ruling no longer applies. The next Event revealed after Celestial Pattern *can* be Avoided, and it will leave the Celestial Pattern still floating, waiting for an Event to resolve.

Zokujin - I assume the MRP makes the Zokujin's unit totally unable to straighten by any means during the next turn after its ability is used.

Yes.

Forgotten Tomb - Can card with zero Force be brought into play immediately after being put under the Tomb, or must they wait a turn?

0 turns is essentialy equivalent to nothing. A 0f card can enter play immediately.

Large Farm - The clause that cards affecting or affected by Small Farms also interact with Large Farms has been removed from the Gold Edition printing.

But they now have the 'Small Farm' trait, making most of the interactions that the old trait would have caused happen anyway.

Torrential Rain - Does the battle have a Resolution Segment?

No. It ends instantly. Without resolution.

Bayushi Kwanchai - Does the ruling for Bayushi Tangen apply, so he can substitute for someone else's Scorpion Personality in a duel?

Yes. You still can't swap him for a Scorpion personality who's challenging one of your own Scorpions, but other than that, the combo works.

Question: If you react to any resolution first with Fight to the Setting Sun, then a second reaction with Rallying Cry, will your troops rally? IIRC, they would.

Indeed, they would.

The Celestial Pattern - but the Gold Edition version of TCP specifies that the next Event DOES resolve (with its effects negated).

Can't say anything until I actually *SEE* Gold here.. mutter mutter..

But the Rules Archive has not changed the ruling yet... And the MRP is supposed to have kicked in already..

Well, the Rules Junta isn't omniscient. I'm noticing Gold changes at just about the same rate as everyone else. There's so many things that just got changed by incidental rewordings, it's very hard to notice everything all at once.

Zokujin - I assume the MRP makes the Zokujin's unit totally unable to straighten by any means during the next turn after its ability is used.

Ehh.. Guess so. I think even Rallying Cry won't.

Not true. Rallying Cry retroactively prevents your units from bowing, it doesn't straighten them (although that does wind up being the overall result). When you play Rally, effects generated by the personalities straightening will not trigger, and effects preventing straightening will have no relevance.

Does Peasant revolt affect Personalities if they are already bowed when it resolves, if they have over 2F?

It will prevent those personalities from straightening normally, yes.

Also, does Imperial Funeral make a player lose honor for peeps already bowed when it resolves?

Yes.

And yet again, does Ambush make the personality who's attacking go home bowed after it resolves?

Yup. It's a normal attack phase (well, as normal as an Ambush can ever be), including the part about attacking units bowing.

When Asahina Tamako/Sekawa, use their ablility to throw away fate cards for gold, does the gold actually have to be spent on something, or can the player simply produce gold for no real reason, other than to empty his hand to get ring of void?

The Gold has to be spent on *something*. You can't just generate it to make the Emperor happy. It's quite amazing that, even when he's dead and rotting, Toturi can still manage to tax all the excess gold produced across the Empire, but hey - that's the power of the Emperor.

You can, however, overpay for something by a lot (even a 0 cost action), using Sekawa to generate the excess gold, then dropping the Ring of Void. You just have to find something to pay for.

Gold Edition rulebook: "No values in the game except Family Honor and Honor requirements can drop under 0."

Is there any difference now between an honor requirement of, say, -1, and an honor requirement of "-"?

Yes. A "-" honor requirement means that your family honor is irrelevant for the purposes of recruiting that personality. An honor requirement with an absolute value (even if that value is a negative number) gives you a threshold that must be met in order to recruit that personality.

OK, can I play with Kakita Kaiten unexperienced in Gold? Its in the rules book, but people have told me you cant. Can somebody help me??

You can't play with Kaiten basic in Strict Gold games. He (as well as a few other cards) was erroneously put into the card list in the Gold rulebook. The second printing might have a better list in the rulebook, but other than that, you'll have to check an online list.

What I want to know is, can you use his ability to ditch one card in your hand to pay for the Ring of Void? You used to be able to do that, but with all the changes in gold, I'm not sure that is still a viable maneuver. Also, if it is not viable, is it because you were not eligible to play the ring before paying for it, or because Ring cards aree no longer actions cards, and cannot be paid for in any way now?

You can't use a Sekawa (or a Merchant Caravan) to pay for a Ring of Void you're about to play, because it's not a legal play when you announce it. You can't start to take an illegal action because it will be legal at some point in the future. As far as I can remember, this was never legal.

You can, though, still pay for the Ring of Void. The Gold Rings still have little coins in the center, meaning they still have Gold costs (which can be modified, too).

Can you use Centipede tattoo on a personality that is fired up with fire tokens from the dragon tattoo (or being mitsu), then use the hummingbird tattoo to straighten afterward? Or take a fire token off the next straighten phase even though the personality wouldn't straighten because of the Centipede tattoo? Sorry if it sounds confused, but I don't know how to put it better.

If you use Centipede Tattoo to move a personality into battle, Hummingbird Tattoo cannot be used to straighten them afterwards, and they will not get to remove a Fire token during their next straighten phase. The Centipede Tat prevents them from straightening, and that overrules Hummingbird Tat and has to be 'paid' for before you can start removing Fire tokens.

Zen wrote that I can use Under Hand if Rise from the ashes is in effect, but can I use the favor to force to discard a card? (I.e. I'm targeting this card?)

You can use the Underhand to look at their hand (which doesn't target) but can't use it to discard one of the cards you looked at (which does target).

When I lose the honor?

Umm...every time you use the Underhand to look at someone elses cards, you lose an honor, regardless of whether you discard a card or not. Is that what you were asking?

I think I don't express well with this cuestion:

Example: Two players. Player 1 has two personalities A and B, A is shugenja and is unbowed, B is bowed. Player 2 has C and D personalities both bowed, and Air ring. 'A' attach and use Touch of dead to kill C.

Player 2 can redirect this to..?: - B ? Then touch of dead is targeting a bowed personality of Player A, but Player 1 can't target initially his bowed personalities. Then this is no legal. Correct?

Correct, this is not legal. It used to be, but the Gold rules have changed it so that you can only target your bowed personalities with actions that would straighten them (or actions that specifically target *your* bowed personalities). Touch of Death is neither of those, so can never be redirected back at you (or intentionally used on one of your personalities).

- D ? Then ring of air is targetting one bowed personality of player 2, and player 2 can't target his bowed personalities. Then this is no legal. Correct?

Not quite correct. A redirection effect uses the targeting requirements of the initial action, so a Touch of Death can only be redirected to another target that was initially legal. In this case, a two player game, the only other legal targets are those controlled by player 2. The fact that *he* can't target his own bowed guys is irrelevant.

Greetings all,

I have a question about the event "An Empty victory" (yes Zen, I looked in the archive first).

An Empty Vitory Until your Events Phase two turns from now, if a player has one of the two highest family honor totals (or is tied for the highest) when his or her attack phase begins, he or she must assign at least one unit to attack another such player.

Unlike many other "You have to attack" type cards (Brash Hero), this one does not include the text "if possible" which raises the question "Can I bow out my personalities to avoid having to attack?"

The "if possible" is implied. If this Event resolves, and you have no eligible personalities to assign, then you just can't assign anyone. There's no penalty.

eg. As a cheesy crane player, I have brought out Courtier X to get the favour on turn 2, but AEV comes up and now I have to attack. Can I still bow for the favour (thus saving my guy) or am I forced to leave Courtier X unbowed so I can attack with him?

The Event doesn't specify anything like that, so you're okay. You don't have to take any special precautions to make sure you can attack, you just have to assign a guy if it's possible. I mean, if this Event came up when you had no personalities in play, would it make sense to say that you would have to immediately go through your deck to find a personality to bring out and attack with?

Ok, well it's me again...

(For future reference, if I have more then one question is it best to split them into several short messgaes, or one long one?)

Either or. I know that Zen answers questions off the digest, so it really makes no difference for him. I use a special secret method to answer questions off of the individual messages, but splitting them up or combining them makes no difference for me, either. Go with what makes you happy.

Kakita Atoshi Political Limited: Bow while you have the Imperial Favour. Select a bowed Personality. The target Personality may not straighten until after one of the following occurs: Atoshi straightens or is destroyed, or you lose the Imperial Favour.

So when do they straighten? Is it at their next straighten phase, or immediately after requirements are met.

The cards are not trying to fool you, grasshopper. There's no indication that the personality straightens immediately when one of Atoshi's conditions ends, so they don't. They're just allowed to straighten normally again.

eg: Lion attacks me (shocking!) with Matsu Nimuro whom I fend off. On my turn I bo Atoshi and lock Nimoru down. On Lion's next turn he (or she) comes after me (overreacting as usual to a minor comment at court) again and I am forced to ask Toturi Tsudao to "discourage" his unit. I no longer have the favour.

so, does Nimuro immediately straighten (eep) or do I have a grace period to get the favour back.

Neither. As soon as you lose the Favor, Nirmuro gets the ability to straighten normally back. In order for you to lock him down again, you have to straighten Atoshi, regain the Favor, and then use his ability again. Nimuro then becomes re-locked.

eg2: Multiplayer (which is where this came up) I lock down two personalities to my right. When my turn starts I straighten my Atoshis (plural Atoshii?) and lock down two guys to my left?

Sure.

I do not believe you could ever actually pay for a ring. they never had a cost associated with them in the monetary value. When you generate gold it must be directed at something to pay for something. You can always OVERPAY for something. So you maybe be bringing something in that cost 6 gold. You can pay 8 or even 10 gold for it. As long as the money is being spent. The extra money goes to the emperor's tax collection. You can also underpay for something. If you do not meet the cost, the money gets wasted as well, and whatever you were bringing out can not come out because the cost was not fully payed.

a) Rings have a gold cost of zero, which must be payed normally when you play the Ring. This never matters in normal play, but does exist for the purposes of overpaying and cost modifications.

b) You can *never* willingly announce that you're going to play something without the ability to pay all costs of it. There are rules to cover situations where you start to play something, and then your payment gets interfered with, but you can't just toss things out of your hand, announcing that you're really trying to play these cards, but just can't afford to pay for them all.

Why couldn't you overpay for something (action) that cost 0. I always thought that was legal.....

It is.

What if the gold cost of an action was increased by 2, wouldn't that mean that the gold cost was orginally 0, and not non-exsistant. I hope that made sense.

You can increase the cost of something that has a 0 cost, but cannot modify in any way something that has no gold cost at all (like an Event or a Region). There's a significant difference between having a gold cost of zero, and having no gold cost at all.

In my Gold edition rulebook says: You cannot target your own bowed Personalities with your actions, except actions that straighten cards.

I dont find that if an action target a bowed card I can target one of my bowed cards.

It used to be that way, but it has recently changed. As with all of the recent big changes, it's going to take time for people to get used to the new way of things.

Second, If I use ring of air, I target the personality with the ring of air reaction (I choose a new personality), not with ToD.

Not true. Ring of Air targets the spell that it is redirecting, but not the original or new targets. Only the original spell targets those things.

In my opinion Shiba Raigen is never a new legal target because in the rules says: You cannot announce a targeted action if a legal target does not exist. You must choose all targets when you announce an action, before you begin paying any costs.

Raigen has to be a legal target for the original action, but his special ability overrides the normal targeting rules. You can't redirect one of your own actions to Raigen, but why would you want to?

And Kakita Ariteko could re-honor herself? Target herself, then bows....then, is not a legal target??? ufff....

Targeting is done before paying any costs, including bowing. Ariteko announces that she's going to re-honor herself, and then bows to pay the cost of the action. She's a legal target upon announcement and targeting, so it really doesn't matter if she is or not upon resolution.

Just thought I'd hunt down some clarifications on things that came up in games recently.

With the Tactician Trait now targeting, will a Tactician with Kitsuki Kaagi's Journal be able to use their tactician trait?

Nope. You can no longer be all wise and brilliant in battles if you're too busy reading "How to be a Faceless Minion in Three Easy Steps".

Will In Search of the Future reduce the Force of a Doji House Guard (from the wording I'd say no but I've been wrong many a time before....)?

Well, you're right this time. In Search will only affect things with a variable force bonus, which doesn't include the Doji (or Shiba) House Guard.