A topic from AEG's L5R CCG Rules forum, copied for Oracle of the Void from a copy of the forum saved in October 2015, so pages it didn't save are missing. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings, the rulebooks and the Rules Archive may differ.
A player, 16 September 2012
http://imperialassembly.com/oracle/#cardid=8961,#hashid=5acc3496c925c853fd03e7f902dedde2,#cardcount=0 Undetectable Enemy Reaction: After another player's action targets your Oni: Negate its effects
http://imperialassembly.com/oracle/#cardid=4480,#hashid=d230792b99c402dcee9253aa01c9ccef,#cardcount=1 Knife in the Darkness Battle: Choose your performing Ninja Personality and target an enemy Personality: Move both Personalities home; this movement will not be negated. Bow them.
Is the phrase "This movement will not be negated" considered a part of the effects of Knife in the Darkness, being as it is in the effects block of the text, which would mean that Undetectable trumps that clause?
If not, why not?
EDIT: I found this reply: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=97552&p=1287645&hilit=+Flood+negate#p1287660
No, in both of these cases "may not be negated" is not itself an effect, but a modification of an effect. The "will not be negated" effects on Shadow's Lair nor Unnatural Flood will be negated in this manner - other effects, such as Unnatural Flood's bowing and future movement negation, will still be negated however.
But I can't find anything of modification of effects within effects in the comprehensive rules.
Jon Palmer (rules official), 17 September 2012
http://imperialassembly.com/oracle/#cardid=8961,#hashid=5acc3496c925c853fd03e7f902dedde2,#cardcount=0 Undetectable Enemy Reaction: After another player's action targets your Oni: Negate its effects
http://imperialassembly.com/oracle/#cardid=4480,#hashid=d230792b99c402dcee9253aa01c9ccef,#cardcount=1 Knife in the Darkness Battle: Choose your performing Ninja Personality and target an enemy Personality: Move both Personalities home; this movement will not be negated. Bow them.
Is the phrase "This movement will not be negated" considered a part of the effects of Knife in the Darkness, being as it is in the effects block of the text, which would mean that Undetectable trumps that clause?
If not, why not?
EDIT: I found this reply: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=97552&p=1287645&hilit=+Flood+negate#p1287660
But I can't find anything of modification of effects within effects in the comprehensive rules.
I don't know that there's a specific entry for it in the CR, but your reading of that ruling is correct. Otherwise "this will not be negated" would be pretty pointless, wouldn't it?
Cards such as Undetectable Enemy will not negate an effect that says it will not be negated.
A player, 17 September 2012
viewtopic.php?f=59&t=99759#p1315425
I don't know that there's a specific entry for it in the CR, but your reading of that ruling is correct. Otherwise "this will not be negated" would be pretty pointless, wouldn't it?
Well I was wondering if it was more specific than that. Obviously Height of Courage (as example) wouldn't negate the movement because it negates the part that's un-negatable, but my real question is really is "modification of effects" not considered a part of the effect?
Alex linked me here: http://rules.l5r.com/EE_Effects#Order_of_effects which covers what I couldn't find as far as modifications of effects. But if I were to take the example, "Destroy the duel's loser" is a modification of the duel, and not an actual effect. If this ruling were the case, wouldn't that mean that something that says "Negate an effect that kills a dude" (in loose words) couldn't negate the destruction, because the destruction is a modification of the effect, and not an effect in and of itself.
Alex Jones (rules official), 17 September 2012
viewtopic.php?f=59&t=99759#p1315425
Well I was wondering if it was more specific than that. Obviously Height of Courage (as example) wouldn't negate the movement because it negates the part that's un-negatable, but my real question is really is "modification of effects" not considered a part of the effect?
Alex linked me here: http://rules.l5r.com/EE_Effects#Order_of_effects which covers what I couldn't find as far as modifications of effects. But if I were to take the example, "Destroy the duel's loser" is a modification of the duel, and not an actual effect. If this ruling were the case, wouldn't that mean that something that says "Negate an effect that kills a dude" (in loose words) couldn't negate the destruction, because the destruction is a modification of the effect, and not an effect in and of itself.
In the example for Exception 1, the "modification" of the destruction effect is "each duel's loser."
The text of Exception 1 clearly states that "will not be negated" clause with an effect is a modification of that effect, not a separate effect in itself. Being a part of the referenced effect, its negation prevention applies to itself.