A topic from AEG's L5R CCG Rules forum, copied for Oracle of the Void from a copy of the forum saved in October 2015, so pages it didn't save are missing. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings, the rulebooks and the Rules Archive may differ.
A player, 4 June 2012
I just read the ruling on Asako Karachu vs. Togashi Hizumi http://www.alderac.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=95657&p=1267060&hilit=karachu#p1267060 in which case Karachu's trait straightens him before Hizumi gets a chance to react. A few other scenarios have popped into my head and I want to clarify them.
Does that ruling apply to actions that negate straightening as part of their own effects?
Example: Visitation Open: Destroy your performing Ancestor Personality and target a Personality: Bow him. Negate his straightening until your next Events Phase begins.
or
The Second Feint Battle: Move your performing Ninja Personality home and target an enemy card: Bow it. Negate its next straightening (this turn).
Both cards have the following 2 possibilities, with a third possibility for the Second Feint.
Option A: After declaration, targeting and costs, the first line of the action resolves, bowing Karachu. His trait responds, straightening him. The rest of the action resolves with Karachu still straight, meaning that if he were to be bowed by other means he cannot straighten easily(or at all) the next time.
Option B: After declaration, targeting and costs, the first line of the action resolves, and the rest of the action resolves, then Karachu may trigger his trait, by which time he is stuck bowed.
Option C: If B is true, then Visitation would keep him bowed for the whole turn, but the Second Feint only negates the next straightening. In this case the action completes resolving, Karachu attempts to straighten with his trait but fails, then uses the same trigger to do the trait a second time, ultimately ending up straight.
Originally my question was only going to be about Option C, but looking at the break down on the Hizumi ruling makes me think there is room for him to straighten before the later clauses take effect. Not sure of course.
Thanks,
Ryan
Jon Palmer (rules official), 5 June 2012
I just read the ruling on Asako Karachu vs. Togashi Hizumi http://www.alderac.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=95657&p=1267060&hilit=karachu#p1267060 in which case Karachu's trait straightens him before Hizumi gets a chance to react. A few other scenarios have popped into my head and I want to clarify them.
Does that ruling apply to actions that negate straightening as part of their own effects?
Example: Visitation Open: Destroy your performing Ancestor Personality and target a Personality: Bow him. Negate his straightening until your next Events Phase begins.
or
The Second Feint Battle: Move your performing Ninja Personality home and target an enemy card: Bow it. Negate its next straightening (this turn).
Both cards have the following 2 possibilities, with a third possibility for the Second Feint.
Option A: After declaration, targeting and costs, the first line of the action resolves, bowing Karachu. His trait responds, straightening him. The rest of the action resolves with Karachu still straight, meaning that if he were to be bowed by other means he cannot straighten easily(or at all) the next time.
Option B: After declaration, targeting and costs, the first line of the action resolves, and the rest of the action resolves, then Karachu may trigger his trait, by which time he is stuck bowed.
Option C: If B is true, then Visitation would keep him bowed for the whole turn, but the Second Feint only negates the next straightening. In this case the action completes resolving, Karachu attempts to straighten with his trait but fails, then uses the same trigger to do the trait a second time, ultimately ending up straight.
Originally my question was only going to be about Option C, but looking at the break down on the Hizumi ruling makes me think there is room for him to straighten before the later clauses take effect. Not sure of course.
Thanks,
Ryan
In both cases, Karachu straightens immediately after the "bow him" effect. The negation of his straightening then applies after he has straightened.
A player, 7 June 2012
Political Open: Bow Rin and target an honorable Personality: Rin shames him in a performance. The Personality's controller may dishonor him. If he did not choose this, bow him and negate his straightening (this turn).
After Karachu bows: Straighten him.
So I use Rin's ability, target Asako Karachu, and his controller chooses not to dishonor him. Does Karachu straighten before Rin's negation effect kicks in, or will he stay bowed?
Alex Jones (rules official), 8 June 2012
So I use Rin's ability, target Asako Karachu, and his controller chooses not to dishonor him. Does Karachu straighten before Rin's negation effect kicks in, or will he stay bowed?
To quote my colleague: Karachu straightens immediately after the "bow him" effect. The negation of his straightening then applies after he has straightened.
A player, 8 June 2012
I have a further question regarding the second question posted by Bayushi Mamoru in this thread viewtopic.php?f=59&t=98296
The question I have is regarding the wording on Shosuro Rin compared to someone like Bayushi Waru. Bayushi Waru has a clean break in his wording. Rin does not. That seems significant to me. There is no break in Rin's ability like there is in Waru's. I am specifically referring to the part of Rin's ability where it says and negate his straightening as opposed to Waru where there is a period between bowing and the negation of the straightening. The period created a period of time for the straightening to occur. I don't see Waru and Rin being the same kind of effect.
Brook Cunningham (rules official), 8 June 2012
I have a further question regarding the second question posted by Bayushi Mamoru in this thread viewtopic.php?f=59&t=98296
The question I have is regarding the wording on Shosuro Rin compared to someone like Bayushi Waru. Bayushi Waru has a clean break in his wording. Rin does not. That seems significant to me. There is no break in Rin's ability like there is in Waru's. I am specifically referring to the part of Rin's ability where it says and negate his straightening as opposed to Waru where there is a period between bowing and the negation of the straightening. The period created a period of time for the straightening to occur. I don't see Waru and Rin being the same kind of effect.
Sorry, but there is no difference beyond asthetics. Effects occur in the order written; whether they are separated by a period or the word "and" does not change this.