A topic from AEG's L5R CCG Rules forum, copied for Oracle of the Void from a copy of the forum saved in October 2015, so pages it didn't save are missing. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings, the rulebooks and the Rules Archive may differ.
A player, 3 October 2011
Hold!: Reaction: Before another player's action's resolution, target your unbowed Commander at the current battlefield: Choose one of your Personalities there. Choose whether to negate his bowing or his movement from that action.
Heart of Darkness: Terrain Before this battle's resolution: Choose and bow zero to two cards at the current battlefield with 4 or greater Force. Battle: If no terrain is at the current battlefield: Put this card into play there.
Sort of separately, for reference: It has been ruled that Height of Courage can stop Encircled Terrain if played at the correct timing here: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=83475&p=1096460&hilit=Encircled#p1096460
So based on that ruling, which logically carries over to say that Hold! can stop movement from Encircled too (if played at the correct timing), can I play Hold! to stop Heart of Darkness from bowing a certain personality? Or any other terrain under the new formatting?
Jon Palmer (rules official), 3 October 2011
Hold!: Reaction: Before another player's action's resolution, target your unbowed Commander at the current battlefield: Choose one of your Personalities there. Choose whether to negate his bowing or his movement from that action.
Heart of Darkness: Terrain Before this battle's resolution: Choose and bow zero to two cards at the current battlefield with 4 or greater Force. Battle: If no terrain is at the current battlefield: Put this card into play there.
Sort of separately, for reference: It has been ruled that Height of Courage can stop Encircled Terrain if played at the correct timing here: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=83475&p=1096460&hilit=Encircled#p1096460
So based on that ruling, which logically carries over to say that Hold! can stop movement from Encircled too (if played at the correct timing), can I play Hold! to stop Heart of Darkness from bowing a certain personality? Or any other terrain under the new formatting?
The difference between Encircled Terrain and Heart of Darkness is that the only "action" on Heart of Darkness is the one used to put it into play.
The later bowing effect does not come from an action, and therefore Hold! will not prevent the bowing no matter when it is played.
A player, 4 October 2011
Hi,
For some reason there is no 'reply' button available to me, but I had to ask the question, and so needed to start another thread:
Re: Hold! and Heart of Darkness
Postby Palmer ยป Mon Oct 03, 2011 6:06 pm The difference between Encircled Terrain and Heart of Darkness is that the only "action" on Heart of Darkness is the one used to put it into play.
The later bowing effect does not come from an action, and therefore Hold! will not prevent the bowing no matter when it is played.
Can you explain to me why the logic below doesn't work?
The wording on 'Hold! is as follows:
'Reaction: Before another player's action's resolution, target your unbowed Commander at the current battlefield: Choose one of your Personalities there. Choose whether to negate his bowing or his movement from that action.'
The trigger for the reaction is my opponent playing the card Heart of Darkness, before resolution which actually puts Heart of Darkness into play.
I choose to negate the bowing of my personality from the action, regardless of the fact that the card is not actually bowing my personality now. In fact, with this wording, I could react to any action at all, regardless of whether one of that cards effects was a bow or movement effect (Steel on Steel, for example) with 'Hold! even though it would actually have no effect on that particular action (legal as it changes the game state in terms of cards played to drop Ring of Void).
Heart of Darkness is now a card in play.
At battle resolution, the source bowing of my personality is the Heart of Darkness.
My choice to negate the bowing from Heart of Darkness should now prevent the bowing.
Why does this not work?
Again, my apologies, I had to start an additional thread as there was no reply option available to me - I don't know if that is because of my recent rejoining of the forum after a few years away from the game.
Cheers,
G.
Brook Cunningham (rules official), 4 October 2011
Hi,
For some reason there is no 'reply' button available to me, but I had to ask the question, and so needed to start another thread:
As to the reason for that, please see here.
Can you explain to me why the logic below doesn't work?
The wording on 'Hold! is as follows:
'Reaction: Before another player's action's resolution, target your unbowed Commander at the current battlefield: Choose one of your Personalities there. Choose whether to negate his bowing or his movement from that action.'
Note what I underlined in your quote above.
The only "action" on Heart of Darkness is the one that puts it into play. The bowing comes from Heart of Darkness's TRAIT.
This is a very new way to template Terrains, which is why it's different than Encircled Terrain. And you say you've been away from the game some time, so perhaps part of your confusion may come from thinking that everything on Heart of Darkness is an "action" because it is on what used to be called an "Action card", which for obvious clarity issues we now call "Strategy cards/Strategies".
But an "action" is only text that is preceded by Battle, Open, Limited, or Reaction in bold. Heart of Darkness's bowing is from a trait, which triggers and affects cards because Heart of Darkness is in play.
Alex Jones (rules official), 4 October 2011
I choose to negate the bowing of my personality from the action, regardless of the fact that the card is not actually bowing my personality now. In fact, with this wording, I could react to any action at all, regardless of whether one of that cards effects was a bow or movement effect (Steel on Steel, for example) with 'Hold! even though it would actually have no effect on that particular action (legal as it changes the game state in terms of cards played to drop Ring of Void).
Just to clarify, you may indeed play Hold! as a Reaction to any action (as long as you can "target your unbowed Commander at the current battlefield"), regardless of whether that action can bow or move any Personalities - you could play it in response to Sneak Attack if you really wanted to.