A topic from AEG's L5R CCG Rules forum, copied for Oracle of the Void from a copy of the forum saved in October 2015, so pages it didn't save are missing. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings, the rulebooks and the Rules Archive may differ.
A player, 21 May 2011
With regard to the ruling linked below about provinces created after Ongoing Effects have happened and its various nuances I am concerned about how this will affect other aspects of the game.
viewtopic.php?f=59&t=90771
For example I am involved in a battle and play Border Ambush, which creates an ongoing effect giving my personalities +1F or +2F if opposed at the current battlefied. If i were to create new personalities at that battlefield after the card is played would they get the bonus? if i were to move someone in would they get the bonus? if not why not by the same logic?
I am aware that the distinction has to be based on the exact wording of the cards. For example if a card said something like "unti the current battle ends give all your personalities there +1F/+2F if opposed" would that affect the answer?
Thank you in advance Azrael
Zen Faulkes (rules official), 21 May 2011
I am involved in a battle and play Border Ambush, which creates an ongoing effect giving my personalities +1F or +2F if opposed at the current battlefied. If i were to create new personalities at that battlefield after the card is played would they get the bonus? if i were to move someone in would they get the bonus?
Yes and yes.
if a card said something like "unti the current battle ends give all your personalities there +1F/+2F if opposed" would that affect the answer?
It would not.
A player, 21 May 2011
Regarding this thread, if your Personalities are opposed when Border Ambush is played, but later become unopposed, does the force bonus become +1, or will it remain at +2?
Zen Faulkes (rules official), 22 May 2011
(I)f your Personalities are opposed when Border Ambush is played, but later become unopposed, does the force bonus become +1, or will it remain at +2?
+1. http://rules.l5r.com/CE_Effects#Ongoing_effects: "An ongoing effect that is applied 'while' some condition is true ends when that condition is no longer true."
"If" is synonymous with "while" here.
A player, 22 May 2011
Following this
I'm afraid that the wording of Border Ambush doesn't create that kind of effect.
Battle: Dishonor your target Personality: Give each of your Personalities and Followers at the current battlefield +1F, or +2F if they are opposed.
In my humble opinion, the source of the confusion lies here. From the CR: Ongoing effects that affect all things of a certain kind (such as, “Battle: Your Samurai have +1F”) or that meet a condition (such as, "Battle: Your opposed Personalities have +1F")
Border Ambush's wording isn't nowhere near the examples given by the rules or the original case (Last Line of Defense does affect all the player's provinces current and future, because they are all things of a certain kind) It doesn't say "your personalities at the current battlefield have +1F, or +2F while opposed". It creates an ongoing effect that gives a finite force bonus to the personalities that match the conditions - the key for the difference is that the effect begins with the word "give". You only give the bonus once, and don't recheck it.
The wording differences between Border Ambush and the examples given in the rules mean that saying that the two things are one and the same is fallacious. Border Ambush creates an ongoing effect that is applied just once, and never reapplied.
P.S. Also, I'm wondering when did "if" become a synonym of "while". They are used in different situations for different intents and purposes. "While" is a condition that is checked continuously, "if" is typically checked once.
Alex Jones (rules official), 22 May 2011
Following this
I'm afraid that the wording of Border Ambush doesn't create that kind of effect.
Battle: Dishonor your target Personality: Give each of your Personalities and Followers at the current battlefield +1F, or +2F if they are opposed.
In my humble opinion, the source of the confusion lies here. From the CR: Ongoing effects that affect all things of a certain kind (such as, “Battle: Your Samurai have +1F”) or that meet a condition (such as, "Battle: Your opposed Personalities have +1F")
Border Ambush's wording isn't nowhere near the examples given by the rules or the original case (Last Line of Defense does affect all the player's provinces current and future, because they are all things of a certain kind) It doesn't say "your personalities at the current battlefield have +1F, or +2F while opposed". It creates an ongoing effect that gives a finite force bonus to the personalities that match the conditions - the key for the difference is that the effect begins with the word "give". You only give the bonus once, and don't recheck it.
The wording differences between Border Ambush and the examples given in the rules mean that saying that the two things are one and the same is fallacious. Border Ambush creates an ongoing effect that is applied just once, and never reapplied.
P.S. Also, I'm wondering when did "if" become a synonym of "while". They are used in different situations for different intents and purposes. "While" is a condition that is checked continuously, "if" is typically checked once.
Indeed. Zen's initial response is wrong.
Border Ambush gives each of your Personalities and Followers currently in your army either +1F or +2F depending on whether they are currently opposed or not. Each of these force bonuses is a fixed, ongoing effect that is not conditional on anything, but that lasts until the end of turn (unless negated by a new effect).
Personalities or Followers who turn up later don't get the bonus, nor does the bonus change if their opposed/unopposed status changes.