A topic from AEG's L5R CCG Rules forum, copied for Oracle of the Void from a copy of the forum saved in October 2015, so pages it didn't save are missing. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings, the rulebooks and the Rules Archive may differ.
A player, 30 April 2011
In looking at one of the BtD previews, I had a bit of a head scratching moment:
Kitsune Den: Political Limited: Destroy this card: Rehonor one or more target dishonorable Personalities. Gain Honor equal to the highest base Personal Honor among them.
Unshakable Resolve: Open: Rehonor your target dishonorable Personality. While he is opposed this turn, he has a Force bonus equal to his Personal Honor. If his Personal Honor is 4 or greater, gain 1 Honor.
Rules: The rules for rehonoring Personalities say a Personality is rehonored, "Before a player gains Honor from an action or trait that targeted, came from, or was performed by one or more of his or her dishonorable Personalities, the Personality is rehonored and the player does not gain the Honor." Dishonorable status is checked only at the time the targeting, origin or performing of the action or trait is established.
The honor gain from both Kitsune Den and Unshakable Resolve comes from an action that targeted one or more dishonorable personalities. The rules say that dishonorable status is checked when the targeting occur, which is before they are rehonored. Technically, doesn't that mean you would gain 0 honor, because the personalities were dishonorable at the time?
Zen Faulkes (rules official), 30 April 2011
In looking at one of the BtD previews, I had a bit of a head scratching moment:
Kitsune Den: Political Limited: Destroy this card: Rehonor one or more target dishonorable Personalities. Gain Honor equal to the highest base Personal Honor among them.
Unshakable Resolve: Open: Rehonor your target dishonorable Personality. While he is opposed this turn, he has a Force bonus equal to his Personal Honor. If his Personal Honor is 4 or greater, gain 1 Honor.
Rules: The rules for rehonoring Personalities say a Personality is rehonored, "Before a player gains Honor from an action or trait that targeted, came from, or was performed by one or more of his or her dishonorable Personalities, the Personality is rehonored and the player does not gain the Honor." Dishonorable status is checked only at the time the targeting, origin or performing of the action or trait is established.
The honor gain from both Kitsune Den and Unshakable Resolve comes from an action that targeted one or more dishonorable personalities. The rules say that dishonorable status is checked when the targeting occur, which is before they are rehonored. Technically, doesn't that mean you would gain 0 honor, because the personalities were dishonorable at the time?
Since you mentioned Before the Dawn previews, sorry, not yet on those: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=89812
That said... in general, note that the rules on rehonoring Personalities (http://rules.l5r.com/CE_Physically_mark ... shonorable) does not include specific card effects. And effects resolve in the order written (http://rules.l5r.com/CE_Effects#Order_of_effects).
A player, 30 April 2011
So reading this response from Zen. I'm confused. What does the order of effect resolution have to do with when or if the rulebook checks for dishonor status? The rules say check when targeting and resolve accordingly. or are you saying the cardinal rule can make it so a triggered rulebook effect doesn't occur without expressly mentioning the rule? That seems bad. Though I have no good suggestions for card text to get around this issue.
Zen Faulkes (rules official), 1 May 2011
So reading this response from Zen. I'm confused. What does the order of effect resolution have to do with when or if the rulebook checks for dishonor status? The rules say check when targeting and resolve accordingly. or are you saying the cardinal rule can make it so a triggered rulebook effect doesn't occur without expressly mentioning the rule? That seems bad. Though I have no good suggestions for card text to get around this issue.
I get the point, but I see it as a case of First Cardinal Rule (http://rules.l5r.com/CE_Cardinal_rules).
The general rule quoted is taken from a section about rehonoring Personalities without a card effect. There is no specific rehonoring in the ability, and the honor gain from the ability is the trigger for rehonoring.
These are abilities where the rehonoring is explicitly part of the ability.
Will kick it to the Rules Junta, though, so no more on this topic for now, please.
A player, 26 July 2011
This ruling: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=90494&p=1201878
Zen said he was going to kick it to the Rules Junta . . . any word?
I think the main part of the issue is the wording of the rules are these. At least 3 cards that are affected are A Gentle Word, Kitsune Den, and Unshakable Resolve - all of which rehonor first, then gain honor:
Physically Marked Card States Dishonorable status is checked when the Personality is targeted, etc.
References: Dishonorable status is checked only at the time the targeting, origin or performing of the action or trait is established.
Brook Cunningham (rules official), 1 August 2011
This ruling: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=90494&p=1201878
Zen said he was going to kick it to the Rules Junta . . . any word?
I think the main part of the issue is the wording of the rules are these. At least 3 cards that are affected are A Gentle Word, Kitsune Den, and Unshakable Resolve - all of which rehonor first, then gain honor:
Physically Marked Card States Dishonorable status is checked when the Personality is targeted, etc.
References: Dishonorable status is checked only at the time the targeting, origin or performing of the action or trait is established.
Fixed it! Those cards now work as they should within the parameters of the Rules.
Honorable and Disohonorable status: "Before a player gains Honor from an action or trait that targeted, came from, or was performed by one or more of his or her dishonorable Personalities, if any of those Personalities is not otherwise rehonored by the action or trait, each Personality is rehonored and the player does not gain the Honor. (Dishonorable status is checked when the Personality is targeted, etc. For more details, see References). [CHANGED 2 Aug 2011]"