A topic from AEG's L5R CCG Rules forum, copied for Oracle of the Void from a copy of the forum saved in October 2015, so pages it didn't save are missing. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings, the rulebooks and the Rules Archive may differ.
A player, 2 May 2010
Dear rules team, What happens if I entice Kyogen, and give him the loyal keyword?
1) Does he explode because Kyogen and I don't share a Clan Allignment? 2) Does he explode upon returning to his owner at the end of my turn, as they do not share clan allignments? 3) Do I keep him forever?
Kyogen: Open: Give Kyogen a keyword on your target Personality
Enticement: Open: Pay Gold equal to the total Gold Cost of the targeted Personality's unit: Lose 3 Honor. Take control of a target Personality. While you control him, you may not assign his unit to attack and he will not move to attack. Before this turn ends, give control of him to his owner.
Loyal: A Personality with the Loyal keyword will not become controlled by a player who does not share a Clan alignment with that Personality - either by bringing into play or by changing control.
Furthermore, if option 3 is correct, does that further imply that I can never attack with my new Kyogen ever?
Thank you!
Brook Cunningham (rules official), 2 May 2010
What happens if I entice Kyogen, and give him the loyal keyword?
1) Does he explode because Kyogen and I don't share a Clan Allignment? 2) Does he explode upon returning to his owner at the end of my turn, as they do not share clan allignments? 3) Do I keep him forever?
The correct answer is 3). His Loyal keyword will cause Enticement's delayed effect of returning him to his controller to fail.
Furthermore, if option 3 is correct, does that further imply that I can never attack with my new Kyogen ever?
Nothing "implied" about it. Quite explicitly, you may not assign Kyogen to attack and he will not move to attack "while you control him". If you never stop controlling him, this ongoing effect never ends.
Thank you!
You're welcome. Enjoy!
A player, 4 May 2010
In regards to this ruling: http://www.alderac.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=83279
I get and understand the ruling, makes sense to me, I just have one question about it. At what point does the Loyal keyword copied onto Kyogen go away? I assume from the general rule that actions that have no defined time span are by default until end of turn. If so, doesn't Kyogen and Enticement then have the same ending time frame? And if they do have the same ending time frame, wouldn't then it be the active player's choice which resolves and ends first, thus giving the active player the possibility of removing "Loyal" from Kyogen and allowing Enticement to return him to his original owner? I may have easily missed a common sense point in all this, I am no rules lawyer but I was reading other rulings just before this and active player's choice in resolving actions made me think if the timing on this was accurate is all. Thank you very much for your time and thoughts.
Brook Cunningham (rules official), 4 May 2010
In regards to this ruling: http://www.alderac.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=83279
I get and understand the ruling, makes sense to me, I just have one question about it. At what point does the Loyal keyword copied onto Kyogen go away? I assume from the general rule that actions that have no defined time span are by default until end of turn. If so, doesn't Kyogen and Enticement then have the same ending time frame? And if they do have the same ending time frame, wouldn't then it be the active player's choice which resolves and ends first, thus giving the active player the possibility of removing "Loyal" from Kyogen and allowing Enticement to return him to his original owner? I may have easily missed a common sense point in all this, I am no rules lawyer but I was reading other rulings just before this and active player's choice in resolving actions made me think if the timing on this was accurate is all. Thank you very much for your time and thoughts.
Under discussion.
A player, 4 May 2010
regarding this: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=83279
I don't seem to understand one thing. Kygoen can have the Loyal keyword due to his ability. But, he is loyal to no one. Ronin is not a clan, and neither is actor, so if he is enticed and then gains loyal, he is still not actually loyal to anyone and should not be effected by those rules. I just don't seem to understand how loyal can work on him.
Brook Cunningham (rules official), 4 May 2010
I don't seem to understand one thing. Kygoen can have the Loyal keyword due to his ability. But, he is loyal to no one. Ronin is not a clan, and neither is actor, so if he is enticed and then gains loyal, he is still not actually loyal to anyone and should not be effected by those rules. I just don't seem to understand how loyal can work on him.
Loyal doesn't work in the manner you're describing. It doesn't tie a Personality to a controller with whom he shares a Faction. Rather, it PREVENTS a Personality from becoming controlled by someone whose Faction he is does NOT share. As you said, he does not share a Faction with anyone. So, that means no one can take control of him (from his current controller) once he is given "Loyal".
Brook Cunningham (rules official), 3 November 2010
In regards to this ruling: http://www.alderac.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=83279
I get and understand the ruling, makes sense to me, I just have one question about it. At what point does the Loyal keyword copied onto Kyogen go away? I assume from the general rule that actions that have no defined time span are by default until end of turn. If so, doesn't Kyogen and Enticement then have the same ending time frame? And if they do have the same ending time frame, wouldn't then it be the active player's choice which resolves and ends first, thus giving the active player the possibility of removing "Loyal" from Kyogen and allowing Enticement to return him to his original owner? I may have easily missed a common sense point in all this, I am no rules lawyer but I was reading other rulings just before this and active player's choice in resolving actions made me think if the timing on this was accurate is all. Thank you very much for your time and thoughts.
Whoopsy. Look what got discussed then forgotten by the wayside due to merging threads! Apologies.
We decided that "Until the turn ends/end of the turn" is always after "Before the turn ends". "Until" by itself, is sort of a "when", or at least exists in some unique slot between "before" and "when", but we're SURE that it comes after "before".
Ahem.
So, there is no conflict; Kyogen's copying always ends after Enticement's return effect. No matter whose turn it is, a Loyal Kyogen will always fail to return from Enticement and then lose "Loyal" after that.