A topic from AEG's L5R CCG Rules forum, copied for Oracle of the Void from a copy of the forum saved in October 2015, so pages it didn't save are missing. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings, the rulebooks and the Rules Archive may differ.
A player, 27 January 2010
re: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=81440&sid=33d25bd2d035a6626c3c362346d61fbb#p1065219
I looked through all the threads that mention Strength of the Bamboo, and I cannot find the answer. Forgive me if I missed it.
The differences between Continuous, Ongoing, and Immediate effects and negation confuse me all the time. Especially Continuous and Ongoing. I thought I had it down, and of course now negation changes and reverts all the progress I thought I made. The new rules look like mud to me.
Is Strength of the Bamboo a Continuous or an Ongoing Negation? Is it the "from the action's effects" wording that makes it one or the other?
In question to being able to differentiate between Continuous and Ongoing, is the following a good way to remember this stuff? If it uses wording similar to "while", then it is Continuous. If it uses wording similar to "until", then it is Ongoing.
A player, 27 January 2010
As a follow up to this: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=81440
What is the difference between the negation effects of Duty and Strength of the Bamboo? I'm unclear as to why Strength of the Bamboo would negate (until end of turn) the chi death and Duty would not. I don't see any explicit difference in their wording around the destruction negation, only in their triggering. Thanks in advance for clarification.
Duty: Bushido Virtue Reaction: Before another player’s card’s effect destroys one of your Personalities, destroy your target honorable Samurai Personality at the same location: Negate the first Personality’s destruction.
Strength of the Bamboo: Heroic Reaction: After an action targets your Hero Perosnality: Negate his destruction from the action's effects. Give him +1F.
-------------------------------------------------------------------- *Edit: February 2nd
Just to clarify, what I'm confused about isn't the differences in types of effect durations, but rather why Strength of the Bamboo has one type while Duty has another.
Looking at the wording, the effect on Strength of the Bamboo states that the targeted personality's destruction from the action's effects is negated. It makes sense that this is an ongoing duration type, especially in light of the comprehensive rules changes.
The wording on Duty seems similar to me, though the language isn't exactly as clean as on Strength of the Bamboo. It essentially reads "Reaction: Before another player’s card’s effect destroys one of your Personalities: Negate the first Personality’s destruction." [emphasis mine] The wording around the destruction negation doesn't talk about the action's effects, but that part is addressed in the constraints block. This is where I'm confused about why Duty wouldn't work. It negates the destruction, but the destruction has to come from "another player’s card’s effect", which leads me to read it as "negate the destruction from another player's card's effects".
As I said in my original post, I'm not seeing anything in the language between the two cards that differentiates their effects significantly.
Additionally, the changes in the comprehensive rules make all negation of ongoing effects into the equivalent of "do not", and gives them a duration of "until end of turn" (negation no longer ends durations of ongoing effects, but now works exactly like "do not", and has a default duration until end of turn like any other effect). This also seems to allow for Duty to temporarily negate the destruction of the 0Chi person, unless Fosuta's action is a continuous action and not ongoing.
Thanks in advance.
Alex Jones (rules official), 28 January 2010
re: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=81440&sid=33d25bd2d035a6626c3c362346d61fbb#p1065219
I looked through all the threads that mention Strength of the Bamboo, and I cannot find the answer. Forgive me if I missed it.
The differences between Continuous, Ongoing, and Immediate effects and negation confuse me all the time. Especially Continuous and Ongoing. I thought I had it down, and of course now negation changes and reverts all the progress I thought I made. The new rules look like mud to me.
Is Strength of the Bamboo a Continuous or an Ongoing Negation? Is it the "from the action's effects" wording that makes it one or the other?
In question to being able to differentiate between Continuous and Ongoing, is the following a good way to remember this stuff? If it uses wording similar to "while", then it is Continuous. If it uses wording similar to "until", then it is Ongoing.
I'm assuming the section you're finding confusing is Duration of Effects. I'll pull out some key sentences and hopefully clarify it for you.
Continuous effects are those found in non-triggered traits, as well as modifier effects that are not triggered (such as stat modifiers on Items or tokens). Instantaneous effects involve a change in the game state that is officially recorded by changing the position, orientation, or count of a physical game element. Ongoing effects may be thought of as “virtual” effects because they are not officially recorded with a physical game element; for example, giving stat bonuses or penalties, granting keywords, or putting a condition on a card such as “may not assign.” Unlike continuous effects, ongoing effects start and end at definite times stated by the effect itself and do not end if the card they came from leaves play.
Continuous effects are created by traits, etc on cards in play. Actions cannot create continuous effects. Instantaneous effects involve a visible change to a card: it changes its location, or becomes bowed or dishonoured, etc. Another instantaneous effect is required to undo the first. Actions and triggered traits can create instantaneous effects. Ongoing effects apply for a certain duration; they are undone when the duration ends, without a new effect being required or created. Actions and triggered traits can create instantaneous effects.
Strength of the Bamboo creates an ongoing negation. It will negate any destruction of your hero caused by any of the action's effects. Duty creates an instantaneous negation. It negates only the instance of destruction which it's being played in reaction to.
A player, 29 January 2010
I'm thoroughly confused, in particular by this rules post http://www.alderac.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=81442.
What makes Strength of the Bamboo ongoing and Duty instantaneous? I can see Duty being instantaneous, but I'm not sure how the clause "from the actions effects" turns Strength of the Bamboo into ongoing.
After all, if you ask anyone why the person needed to be saved by Duty, couldn't they accurately reply "They were destroyed by an action's effects."?
(Please make the answer as crystal clear as you can! Thanks!)
Martin Lund (rules official), 1 February 2010
I'm thoroughly confused, in particular by this rules post http://www.alderac.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=81442.
What makes Strength of the Bamboo ongoing and Duty instantaneous? I can see Duty being instantaneous, but I'm not sure how the clause "from the actions effects" turns Strength of the Bamboo into ongoing.
After all, if you ask anyone why the person needed to be saved by Duty, couldn't they accurately reply "They were destroyed by an action's effects."?
(Please make the answer as crystal clear as you can! Thanks!)
I'm referencing this thread here: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=81442
Do I understand the basic gist of all this as saying that if a card gives an indistinct or open-ended scope of negation "negate his destruction from X's effects" it is an ongoing effect, but a more specific type of negation "[trigger]: negate the destruction" is instantaneous?
For example, a hypothetical action that said, "Destroy target Samurai. You may destroy target Lion Clan personality," would be able to try and destroy a Lion Samurai Personality twice. Strength of the Bamboo would stop both attempts, while Duty could only stop one or the other?
A player, 2 February 2010
Just trying to help out with this, and pose an add on question.
Strength of the Bamboo negates destruction from the actions effects. In the case of a -1C token the destruction effect is a continuous effect of the token, which by rule is traced back to the action that created the token. It is because the destruction effect is continuous that allows Strength of the Bamboo to say no that continuous effect get's negated, because I negate any destruction effect that can be traced back to that action targeting me.
In the case of Duty, the reaction only applies to the current destruction, note the lack of any reference to the action that created the destruction, only the destruction effect itself. Therefore it can only stop the instantaneous destruction that it is responding to, and not all destruction effects created by the action.
In response to Marty's last question. Your hypothetical action would get stopped by Strength of the Bamboo (assuming the target was in fact a Hero), but Duty would only stop one of the destruction effects. That is the way I see it, anyway.
My question is, given that Fosuta's action is an indefinite ongoing effect, wouldn't a single Strength of the Bamboo's effect there by give the Personality in question effectively permanent (i.e. until end of game) immunity from Fosuta's tokens with respect to Chi Death. Since the only reason Strength of the Bamboo's negation effect is more than instantaneous is because Chi Death itself is continuous. If it is not so then it seems like Strength of the Bamboo should not in fact prevent the continuous Chi Death effect in the first place. Otherwise it is not negating "his destruction from the actions effects." Of course at that point one must invoke the "all effects last until end of turn, unless otherwise stated." rules clause. The real problem I have is that Strength of the Bamboo seems to be somewhat of a chameleon changing it's effect type based on the effect type of the action it is played in response to.