Assuming you've already used the second ability of Border Keep, if Whispers pops and you target Border Keep, can you use the second ability of Border Keep again? Thanks.
Whispers of the Dying Sun & Border Keep
A topic from AEG's L5R CCG Rules forum, copied for Oracle of the Void from a copy of the forum saved in October 2015, so pages it didn't save are missing. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings, the rulebooks and the Rules Archive may differ.
Assuming you've already used the second ability of Border Keep, if Whispers pops and you target Border Keep, can you use the second ability of Border Keep again?
Yes.
When an ability can be used once per game and you already used it, if an effect enables you to use it "one additional time this turn", then it can be used once more. However please note that a new rule has been added (see below).
Glossary, Additional use: The term "additional" also means the extra use granted by the effect has to be used after the original ability's first use has been taken. Example: A "once per game" effect can be used "one additional time this turn." The player must first take the use with the "once per game" limitation before he can use the additional use.
ADDITIONAL [March 17th 2010]: due to the text "this turn" on Whispers of the Dying Sun, both the initial use and the additional use MUST occur in the SAME TURN. Thus, if the "once per game" ability on Border Keep has been used in a previous turn, you CANNOT use Whispers of the Dying Sun to get an "additional" use out of it on a later turn.
Regarding this ruling: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=79042&p=1040636
Should we understand that this reverts the previous ruling from Kaiu Genji on the "Additional Use of Once per game"
Assuming you've already used the second ability of Border Keep, if Whispers pops and you target Border Keep, can you use the second ability of Border Keep again? Thanks.
Yes.
This reversal is the result of internal discussions in the Rules Team.
Regarding the new ruling found at viewtopic.php?f=59&t=79042
If I used my once per game Border Keep ability on turn 1 and on turn 3 WOTDS resolves, targeting Border Keep, does this allow me to use Border Keep it again? Or does the new once per game override only exist if you use the once per game on the turn that WOTDS resolves?
Also, does this ruling extend to Once per Battle actions such as Tactical Advisor? If so (and this is getting a little abstract, I admit), if I Tactical Advisor at Province 1, move the Tactical Advisor to province 2, can I then Tactical Advisor twice at province 2, providing all other restrictions are met? Or does my usage of the second Tactical Advisor ability not only eat up my normal once-per-battle effect of Tactical Advisor but also my second use granted by WOTDS?
WOTDS: Choose a (non-Stronghold) card in play. Each of its base abilities may be used one additional time this turn.
Tactical Advisor: Battle: Once per battle, if this unit is opposed, discard a card: The enemy leader discards a card at random. Raise this Personality’s Force by the Focus value of the enemy leader's discarded card.
Thanks. You knew these questions were coming, might as well just get them out of the way.
If I used my once per game Border Keep ability on turn 1 and on turn 3 WOTDS resolves, targeting Border Keep, does this allow me to use Border Keep it again?
Yes. REVERSAL [March 17th 2010]: No. Due to the text "this turn", both the initial use and the additional use MUST occur in the SAME TURN. Thus, if a "once per game" ability has been used in a previous turn, you CANNOT use Whispers of the Dying Sun to get an "additional" use out of it on a later turn.
Also, does this ruling extend to Once per Battle actions such as Tactical Advisor?
No, Whispers of the Dying Sun applies only to abilities that can be used X times per turn, or a longer period (e.g. X times per game). If you choose your Tactical Advisors, the Event has no effect on this Follower.
Re: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=79042&p=1040753&hilit=dying#p1040753
Whispers of the Dying Sun Choose a (non-Stronghold) card in play. Each of its base abilities may be used one additional time this turn.
Border Keep Limited: If it is your first turn: Put one or more cards in your provinces at the bottom of your deck, refilling the provinces face-up. Limited: Once per game: Put one or more cards in your provinces at the bottom of your deck, refilling the provinces face-up.
If a player chooses their Border Keep with the Whispers event, how do they pay the cost of "Once per game:" to use the second ability?
Were that an effect, I'd understand how it could be overcome, but as a cost I'm confused how you can pay "Once per game" twice.
If a player chooses their Border Keep with the Whispers event, how do they pay the cost of "Once per game:" to use the second ability?
It's not a cost; it's a condition (http://rules.l5r.com/CE_Card_features#Abilities). And Whispers of the Dying Sun allows you "one additional time," which overrides conditions.
Re: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=79042&p=1040753&hilit=dying#p1040753
Am I correct in understand that the override that Whipers of the Dying Sun has when applied to Border Keep would supercede the conditions of "Once per game" and "If this is yor first turn" to allow both abilities to be used on that turn?
Am I correct in understand that the override that Whipers of the Dying Sun has when applied to Border Keep would supercede the conditions of "Once per game" and "If this is yor first turn" to allow both abilities to be used on that turn?
I'm not sure I understand the question.
The "once per game" can be extended using Whispers of the Dying Sun, as has already been said and described.
If it is actually your first turn, then yes, you could use that ability one more time using Whispers of the Dying Sun. If it is not your first turn, Whispers of the Dying Sun will not override that condition and allow you to use the ability on any turn you want.
When I wrote, "overrides conditions" previously, I was not trying to say that Whispers of the Dying Sun overrides all conditions. I was only trying to clarify the difference between a cost and a condition, and that Whispers of the Dying Sun affected the latter rather than the former.
Can i use the "once per game" ability on border keep an extra time in the current turn if i reveal whispers of the dying sun, and i have not used it yet? What happens if i only use it once this turn. Does it count for "once per game"? I mean, can i use it my following turn again?
Whispers of the Dying Sun Choose a (non-Stronghold) card in play. Each of its base abilities may be used one additional time this turn.
Border Keep
Unique Bow this card: Produce 2 Gold. Limited: If it is your first turn: Put one or more cards in your provinces at the bottom of your deck, refilling the provinces face-up. Limited: Once per game: Put one or more cards in your provinces at the bottom of your deck, refilling the provinces face-up.
Please use the search function before asking new questions.
See "Whispers of the Dying Sun & Border Keep".
In this thread viewtopic.php?f=59&t=80389#p1051451 Ivan asked a question that hasn't actually been answered before- If you haven't used it before, does Whispers allow you to use it again next turn?
If you haven't used (Border Keep) before, does Whispers allow you to use it again next turn?
No.
An "additional" use means the first use must happen.
REVERSAL [March 17th 2010]: due to the text "this turn" on Whispers of the Dying Sun, both the initial use and the additional use MUST occur in the SAME TURN. Thus, if the "once per game" ability on Border Keep has been used in a previous turn, you CANNOT use Whispers of the Dying Sun to get an "additional" use out of it on a later turn.
I don't follow the new ruling on the interaction: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=79042
Where and how grammatically does it imply, because it certainly doesn't state, both uses of the Once Per Game must happen on the same turn. Please walk me through it slowly, I'm not certain I understand the term "additional time", as it does not seem to be using the standard English definition. If the memory of being used on Border Keep goes away at end of turn, does Once Per Game mean once per turn? If the memory of being used on Border Keep does not go away at end of turn, does additional time lack the ability to check memory on cards from prior turns? I'm really not certain how this ruling makes sense, unless additional time and Once per Game are going to get rulebook definitions instead of common sense English definitions.
Edited to Add:
One additional time this turn. If you have 0 remaining uses of something at beginning of turn and then gain an additional use, how is this different grammar wise from having 1 remaining use at beginning of turn and then gaining an additional use? I'm just not understanding the grammar here.
Edited to Add:
Related topic found here: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=82324
So Second time = additional time. We are changing the common English definition of additional time to be second time? Or vice versa? Can two Akodo Senzo's both copy the same action twice?
Where and how grammatically does it imply, because it certainly doesn't state, both uses of the Once Per Game must happen on the same turn.
Expect the rules wiki to be updated in the near future to clarify this. Please be patient. Thanks!