Determination Errata Vs Misdirection

My opponent, the active player, is going to play a battle action. He has a Determination in hand, and I have a Misdirection in hand.

Determination says: Dark Virtue Reaction: After you announce an action, target one of your Samurai: The action cannot have its effects negated or have its targeting changed. After the action destroys any Personality, remove him from the game.

Misdirection says: Political Gozoku Reaction: Before another player would choose targets for one of his action’s effects during a battle, target one of your Courtier or Gozoku Personalities: You choose the targets instead. (Emphasis on triggers mine)

Before the errata, Determination and Misdirection had a distinct timing separated by the announcement of the action. Now, the timing is different but in a very, very subtle way. Determination comes before, but nothing really happens between the triggers. So the point where the timing for Determination ends and the timing for Misdirection begins is only a thin line. While playing, you don't usually ask for reactions for every possible trigger.

So my opponent announces his action (eg Rout), and before he chooses the targets, I announce I'm using Misdirection, but then he (cunningly) claims he hadn't had the chance to react to the announcement because I rushed to react before he chose targets, and plays his Determination now knowing that it trumps the Misdirection I planned to play.

I could ask perhaps "any reactions?", but then the player would suspect my next move and play the Determination. My special interest in "closing" the timing window shows that my interest is playing a Misdirection safely. I haven't really advanced too much.

How should/may players determine that the timing window for Determination is closed and the timing window for reacting with Misdirection opens?

This is a more of a Floor Rules issue than one for this forum, I fear. Pleas confer with your TO.

Concerning this: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=73266

Am I correct in assuming that, if my opponent announces an action and immediately declares "I target X," that he has passed the window where he can legally announce determination and, since he didn't really give you an opportunity to respond, you can tell your opponent that you want to play misdirection? It's not really a ruling question per se, but I feel this question belongs here.

Mod Nudge: This has already been denoted as a Floor Rules issue here. You will have to speak to the head judge of your tournament regarding player conduct and misplays.

Strictly speaking rules-wise, the "timing window" for Determination is after an action is announced, but before "before targets are chosen".

Where does the window for Misdirection exist?

Ranged Attack | ?---> in here? | Determination Target

No.

1. Announce Ranged Attack action 2. React to after announcement with Determination 3. Make any non-effects (read: Constraints) targeting; for example, the performing Follower in Yoritomo Sunagawa's action. 4. Now is the time for Misdirection, just before any effects targeting (i.e. the Ranged Attack's target).

So by the time that my opponent targets and he didn't play Determination, am I safe to assume that I can still react with it with Misdirection (since in playing Determination you can legally wait for your opponent for Reinforce the Gates)?

Determination and Reinforce have the same timing. In the round of Reactions to "after announcement", one could be played first, then the other, or the other way around.

If your opponent is beginning to indicate the target for the effects of his Ranged Attack, then yes, he has passed by the "after announcement" timing step in which you could play Reinforce or he could play Determination.

If there's some argument over him skipping your chance to React or you skipping his, that's an issue for a judge (as per your link above).

Determination = imba

What?