Bayushi Tsimaru exp., Knowledge and Ordered Retreat

L5R CCG Rules board, 24 June 2008 to 25 June 2008

A topic from AEG's L5R CCG Rules forum, copied for Oracle of the Void from a copy of the forum saved in October 2015, so pages it didn't save are missing. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings, the rulebooks and the Rules Archive may differ.

A player, 24 June 2008

I have Hisao defending a province against an attacking personality. I have Bayushi Tsimaru (Experienced) at home.

I play Knowledge, paying the gold cost, and targeting Hisao and the attacking personality.

Can I react with Tsimaru twice (once per each movement), effectively keeping Hisao and the Attacking Personality at the battlefield?

I have Hisao defending a province against a bowed army of two attacking units. I have Bayushi Tsimaru (Experienced) at home.

My opponent plays Ordered Retreat. He attempts to target and move both his personalities home.

Can I react with Tsimaru twice (once per each movement), effectively keeping both bowed personalities at the battlefield?

In both cases, assume I have not yet used Tsimaru's reaction.

A player, 24 June 2008
Dan Jacobson wrote:

Can I react with Tsimaru twice (once per each movement), effectively keeping Hisao and the Attacking Personality at the battlefield? [...] Can I react with Tsimaru twice (once per each movement), effectively keeping both bowed personalities at the battlefield?

Yes to both questions. Although a player can not use the same Reaction twice to a single triggering occurrence from the same copy of a card (see Timing), each separate movement is a distinct triggering occurrence in order to take Tsimaru's Reaction.

A player, 25 June 2008

Regarding this ruling: http://www.alderac.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=69051

Tsimaru negates a unit's movement twice in a turn, specifically referring to the unit itself rather than the action, so playing the action Ordered Retreat isn't triggering the movement, but rather the effect of the card. Wouldn't therefore Tsimaru be able to negate the movement of both units, assuming his ability hasn't been used yet? It seems to be intuitive, because if Tsimaru was triggered by the Ordered Retreat itself, his ability would negate all movement of Ordered Retreat, rather than only preventing two units from moving. Unless I'm missing something here, of course.

A player, 25 June 2008

Tsimaru negates a unit's movement twice in a turn, specifically referring to the unit itself rather than the action

Not exactly. Bayushi Tsimaru (Experienced)'s Reaction refers to, and is triggered by, any one movement (of any one unit); see also Move and Unit in the glossary. It doesn't matter whether that movement comes from an action, a trait or a rule: Tsimaru's action's effect negates it. It doesn't matter whether more than one unit are moving simultaneously: Tsimaru's ability is used during one specific round of Reactions played before the movement of one of those units (see Timing).

so playing the action Ordered Retreat isn't triggering the movement, but rather the effect of the card

Sorry, I don't understand what you mean...

Wouldn't therefore Tsimaru be able to negate the movement of both units, assuming his ability hasn't been used yet?

Yes, that is exactly what I said at first. Please accept my excuses if my previous answer was ambiguous.