Naval and Misdirection

L5R CCG Rules board, 6 June 2008

A topic from AEG's L5R CCG Rules forum, copied for Oracle of the Void from a copy of the forum saved in October 2015, so pages it didn't save are missing. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings, the rulebooks and the Rules Archive may differ.

A player, 6 June 2008

With regards to this ruling viewtopic.php?f=59&t=68641 and its precursor

Is it not still a requirement of any redirection of targets that the new target be legal for the original player to have declared as a target when the action was initially announced?

If so this general ruling seems to be overbroad and in error in most circumstances. Assume a player with naval peronalities sufficient to declare a naval invasion at a battlefield declares it.

First we have the Declaration of Naval Invasion through the rulebook reaction

Naval Ability Reaction: If you are the Attacker and your current army has more Naval cards than the opposing army, once per battle after engaging: You have the first opportunity to take a Battle action, which must be performed by a target Naval Personality or one of his Naval Followers.

In cases where multiple cards perform a Battle action, only one need be Naval.

Note that the Naval Reaction (declaring the invasion) is not an action by a target card, but by a player. He may then take an otherwise legal battle action out of sequence with the effect of an additional targetting restriction on that action once it is declared. Misdirection cannot change the player who gets the opportunity to take the naval action since the second player is not an otherwise legal target.

Misdirection reads: Political Gozoku Reaction: Before another player would choose targets for one of his action’s effects during a battle, target one of your Courtier or Gozoku Personalities: You choose the targets instead.

You announce the Naval Battle Action you intend to take BEFORE announcing its required targets, which have the additional restriction (in addition to whatever else) of being naval.

A. Announce the action At this step, the player says which ability he or she is using, indicating its source and, if that source has multiple abilities appropriate for that point in time, which ability is being used.

{{ Note that this ruling causes the naval invasion action to have occurred but fail, preventing the deadly ground or hosiing effect. But this should rarely be a problem for the reasons set out below -- If one or more of an action's effects will be negated or otherwise fail to occur (for example, bowing an already bowed Personality, or moving him to a location he is already in), the action is still legal to take. Effects are not required to happen in the same way that costs and targeting are. [ADDED Oct 17 2007] }}

Good Faith Rule: When an action is announced, the player must be able to target all required targets, meet all conditions of the action, and pay all mandatory costs, to the best of his or her knowledge.

Still no trigger for Misdirection UNTIL after the action is announced and its "source target" is identified.

Misdirection does not by its own terms allow you to choose an otherwise illegal target for an effect (ie having a ranged attacker shoot himself or a neighboring card in the face is not permitted unless the ranged attack as written could have allowed this choice).

B. Required targeting At this step, an action’s required targets must be targeted. Optional targeting described in the constraints block is not required, but takes place at this step if it is chosen. All targets are designated in the order described, including simultaneously if a number of targets are indicated by a number (such as, “target two Holdings.”) Targeting in the constraints block happens before targeting described in the effects block.

So, misdirection is required to redirect the Announced Action to an otherwise legal (naval) target source to take the action or may be used as normal to redirect the follow up effect of the naval action.

In the case of printed battle abilities present on a naval card in the battle this would allow redirection of the target of the Battle Actions effects, but not its source, unless there are other multiple copies of the card with identical battle actions in play (and, bowing one versus another could make a difference in some circumstances).

In the case of other actions played from the hand (and attachments) the Misdirecting player can redirect the target of the action to an otherwise legal performing target (ie present at the battle field), or in the case of an announced movement action, equally capable of being moved in, or equally possessing a required key word such as samurai, tactician or magistrate, or personal honor for attaching a follower. If there are no other legal "source targets" for the announced action then it cannot legally be misdirected from the original "source" target.

So an announced naval refugees can be redirected to anyone at the battle (required by refugees) without followers (required by refugees) with the naval keyword (required by naval).

An announced attachment of Heavy Infantry by Eat Hub Port can only be redirected to a person at the battle (required by the attachment action on EHP & the Rulebook) with the requisite personal honor (rulebook requirement) in the naval invading players army (nothing on heavy infantry or EHP to allow attachment to opposing player) with the naval keyword (required by naval invasion rulebook effect)

An announced naval peasent vengeance must target for its source a follower (PV text) at the battlefield (rulebook) with the naval keyword (Naval from rulebook). Misdirection would allow selection of a different naval follower to perform the action, if one is available in the attacking army. Otherwise choose a different legal peron for it to kill.

Alex Jones (rules official), 6 June 2008

With regards to this ruling viewtopic.php?f=59&t=68641 and its precursor

Is it not still a requirement of any redirection of targets that the new target be legal for the original player to have declared as a target when the action was initially announced?

If so this general ruling seems to be overbroad and in error in most circumstances. Assume a player with naval peronalities sufficient to declare a naval invasion at a battlefield declares it.

First we have the Declaration of Naval Invasion through the rulebook reaction

Naval Ability Reaction: If you are the Attacker and your current army has more Naval cards than the opposing army, once per battle after engaging: You have the first opportunity to take a Battle action, which must be performed by a target Naval Personality or one of his Naval Followers.

In cases where multiple cards perform a Battle action, only one need be Naval.

Note that the Naval Reaction (declaring the invasion) is not an action by a target card, but by a player. He may then take an otherwise legal battle action out of sequence with the effect of an additional targetting restriction on that action once it is declared. Misdirection cannot change the player who gets the opportunity to take the naval action since the second player is not an otherwise legal target.

Misdirection reads: Political Gozoku Reaction: Before another player would choose targets for one of his action’s effects during a battle, target one of your Courtier or Gozoku Personalities: You choose the targets instead.

You announce the Naval Battle Action you intend to take BEFORE announcing its required targets, which have the additional restriction (in addition to whatever else) of being naval.

A. Announce the action At this step, the player says which ability he or she is using, indicating its source and, if that source has multiple abilities appropriate for that point in time, which ability is being used.

{{ Note that this ruling causes the naval invasion action to have occurred but fail, preventing the deadly ground or hosiing effect. But this should rarely be a problem for the reasons set out below -- If one or more of an action's effects will be negated or otherwise fail to occur (for example, bowing an already bowed Personality, or moving him to a location he is already in), the action is still legal to take. Effects are not required to happen in the same way that costs and targeting are. [ADDED Oct 17 2007] }}

Good Faith Rule: When an action is announced, the player must be able to target all required targets, meet all conditions of the action, and pay all mandatory costs, to the best of his or her knowledge.

Still no trigger for Misdirection UNTIL after the action is announced and its "source target" is identified.

Misdirection does not by its own terms allow you to choose an otherwise illegal target for an effect (ie having a ranged attacker shoot himself or a neighboring card in the face is not permitted unless the ranged attack as written could have allowed this choice).

B. Required targeting At this step, an action’s required targets must be targeted. Optional targeting described in the constraints block is not required, but takes place at this step if it is chosen. All targets are designated in the order described, including simultaneously if a number of targets are indicated by a number (such as, “target two Holdings.”) Targeting in the constraints block happens before targeting described in the effects block.

So, misdirection is required to redirect the Announced Action to an otherwise legal (naval) target source to take the action or may be used as normal to redirect the follow up effect of the naval action.

In the case of printed battle abilities present on a naval card in the battle this would allow redirection of the target of the Battle Actions effects, but not its source, unless there are other multiple copies of the card with identical battle actions in play (and, bowing one versus another could make a difference in some circumstances).

In the case of other actions played from the hand (and attachments) the Misdirecting player can redirect the target of the action to an otherwise legal performing target (ie present at the battle field), or in the case of an announced movement action, equally capable of being moved in, or equally possessing a required key word such as samurai, tactician or magistrate, or personal honor for attaching a follower. If there are no other legal "source targets" for the announced action then it cannot legally be misdirected from the original "source" target.

So an announced naval refugees can be redirected to anyone at the battle (required by refugees) without followers (required by refugees) with the naval keyword (required by naval).

An announced attachment of Heavy Infantry by Eat Hub Port can only be redirected to a person at the battle (required by the attachment action on EHP & the Rulebook) with the requisite personal honor (rulebook requirement) in the naval invading players army (nothing on heavy infantry or EHP to allow attachment to opposing player) with the naval keyword (required by naval invasion rulebook effect)

An announced naval peasent vengeance must target for its source a follower (PV text) at the battlefield (rulebook) with the naval keyword (Naval from rulebook). Misdirection would allow selection of a different naval follower to perform the action, if one is available in the attacking army. Otherwise choose a different legal peron for it to kill.

I think you're missing which action Misdirection is being played in response to: it's *not* the Naval Battle action.

Naval Ability: "Reaction: If you are the Attacker and your current army has more Naval cards than the opposing army, once per battle after engaging: You have the first opportunity to take a Battle action, which must be performed by a target Naval Personality or one of his Naval Followers."

This Reaction targets "a Naval Personality", and it's *this* action to which Misdirection is reacting. Misdirection allows the defender to choose any Naval Personality in play. The attacker must then either announce an action performed by that Personality or pass. If he does not control the Personality or (barring actions that ignore the Rule of Location) the Personality is not at the battlefield, he must pass.