A topic from AEG's L5R CCG Rules forum, copied for Oracle of the Void from a copy of the forum saved in October 2015, so pages it didn't save are missing. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings, the rulebooks and the Rules Archive may differ.
A player, 1 May 2008
Since fate and spider clan cards with honor loss effects do not exist for the Spider's Lair player, is Lies, Lies, Lies... legal to play if I were using Spider's Lair and had a Hired Killer in my discard pile (assuming I also have no Shadowlands, Ninja, or Kolat cards in play or discard)?
"Lies, Lies, Lies… 0G 2FV Political Limited: If you have no cards in play or in your discard piles that cause their player an Honor loss or have the Shadowlands, Ninja, or Kolat keywords: Gain 8 Honor; this gain cannot raise your Family Honor above its starting value." [MRP, Samurai Edition, 25 July 2007]
"The Spider’s Lair 8PS 4G 0FH You do not lose Honor from Fate and Spider Clan cards you own. In your Dynasty Phase, one time for each of your provinces destroyed this game, you may refill a Province face-up."
Do not A phrase meaning that a certain occurrence (for example, losing honor) simply does not happen under the circumstances given; it is not negation and overrides effects that prevent negation.
Martin Lund (rules official), 1 May 2008
When a rule or card text needs to know what an action does or will do, it only takes into account the current text of the action. It does not consider any continuous, ongoing or triggered effects that change or negate the action's own function.
Citation
Use the card text only. It tells its played "Lose 3 Honor." The fact that said player doesn't lose honor due to the rules on his or her Stronghold don't change the nature of the card itself.
So, "Lies, Lies, Lies ..." can not be played by a Spider player with a Hired Killer in his Discard Pile, even though the Hired Killer isn't ever going to cause him to lose honor due to his Stronghold Trait.
Does that also count the Good Faith Rule which does take current game state into account? Specifically because the card text of Lies Lies Lies does not say "Cards...with an honor loss effect" but "cards...that cause their player an Honor loss" so by the Good Faith Rule I know that I meet the requirements of not having any cards that cause their player an Honor loss.
http://rules.l5r.com/Effects#Blind_cards_rule The blind cards principle should not be over-applied beyond the specific case of needing to know what an action does; specifically, it should not interfere with the Good Faith rule of actions, which does take into account relevant knowledge about the game state.
Good Faith Rule: When an action is announced, the player must be able to target all required targets, meet all conditions of the action, and pay all mandatory costs, to the best of his or her knowledge.
Aspects of the game state should be considered under the good faith rule, such as effects that reduce costs, prevent costs from being paid, or relax requirements.
Martin Lund (rules official), 1 May 2008
When a rule or card text needs to know what an action does or will do, it only takes into account the current text of the action. It does not consider any continuous, ongoing or triggered effects that change or negate the action's own function.
"Lies, Lies, Lies ..." is specifically a case where Blind Cards applies. The restriction wants to know if a specific type of card exists. That type of card is defined and identified independently of the continuous effect of the Spider player's Stronghold that changes its function.
If you had a Reaction or Trait that waived the Restriction of the Action, rather than one that merely modifies the effects of other cards referenced by the Restriction, then the section on the Good Faith Rule would apply.
Using the search function shows me that this is the first time the Blind Cards rule, located in the middle of the Effects section of the CR, has been applied to a restriction on an action's legality. The Good Faith rule, located in the "Abilities and Actions" section, appears to deal with the potential effects of outside game state information affecting the legality of announcing actions.
We should all be in agreement that a player with an unbowed samurai in the current opposed battle is unable to play a Stay Your Blade if Winter Warfare has resolved and its effects are still active. The Good Faith rule prevents it from being announced, as the player knows that he is unable to pay the costs of the action due to game state effects.
Using Blind Cards to determine if an action is legal to announce would essentially be a reversal of viewtopic.php?f=59&t=67100&p=863372 , correct? Looking at Stay Your Blade blindly, none of the restrictions require you to have an unbowed samurai at the current battle.
Alternately, take any lion clan personality with exactly 3 personal honor. He is opposing a mantis player in battle with Horitsu Mura (Personalities opposing one or more of your Magistrates have -1PH.) for their stronghold. The mantis player controls one or more Magistrates at the battle. Using Lies + Spider as a precedent, I should be able to announce and resolve A Lion's Roar (Battle: Bow one of your target Personalities with 3 or more Personal Honor: Ranged Attack with strength equal to his Personal Honor, plus 2 if he is a Tactician.) because if we blindly look at the card and ignore all outside game state effects, my personality would still have 3 personal honor.
Hired Killer does not cause a Spider's Lair player to lose honor. Lies Lies Lies does not care if an honor loss effect exists, as printed it is concerned with cards that cause their player an honor loss. Lies Lies Lies should be legal for a Spider's Lair player to announce as long as they have no shadowlands, ninja, kolat, or non-spider clan dynasty honor loss cards in play or discard piles.
Martin Lund (rules official), 1 May 2008
Hired Killer does not cause a Spider's Lair player to lose honor. Lies Lies Lies does not care if an honor loss effect exists, as printed it is concerned with cards that cause their player an honor loss. Lies Lies Lies should be legal for a Spider's Lair player to announce as long as they have no shadowlands, ninja, kolat, or non-spider clan dynasty honor loss cards in play or discard piles.
No, Chris.
"Lies, Lies, Lies ..." looks for cards which "cause their player an honor loss" as part of their own effects.
It is limited specifically to the text of the card in question. "Their player," specifies that the card cause the player who plays the card to be the one taking the Honor Loss, not another player. That descriptor distinguishes a card such as Hired Killer ("causes their player an honor loss") from a card such as Assigning Blame ("causes an honor loss") - nothing else.
We don't take the trait of a Spider Stronghold into consideration when looking for a "card that causes their player an honor loss" any more than we take a card that says your actions have "an additional cost," or your duels have "an additional result." Additive or subtractive modifications of an Action's base effects are EXACTLY why we don't have "Smart Cards."
You still can't play "Lies, Lies, Lies ..." if you have a card in your Discard Pile with the trait "Lose 3 honor," an ability with an Honor loss cost, or an ability with an effect that says "Lose 3 honor," like Hired Killer - regardless of whether or not your Stronghold allows you to lose honor.
viewtopic.php?p=872470#p872470 Marty posted: "We don't take the trait of a Spider Stronghold into consideration when looking for a "card that causes their player an honor loss" any more than we take Bayushi Paneki into consideration. While Bayushi Paneki is in play at your opponent's home, any card that says, "Limited: Target another player's Personality," is a "card that causes you an honor loss" by the sort of "Smart Cards," interpretation you are proposing."
So does this mean that I can ignore Houritsu Mura's effect on my personality's personal honor as far as legality of announcing actions with personal honor based restrictions goes?
Bayushi Paneki x4 and Bayushi Kaukatsu x2 are triggered traits which act differently than always active traits like Spider's Lair or conditional on/off blanket traits like Houritsu Mura. Thanks for trying to put words in my mouth, though. By your interpretation of my argument, I would be able to use the reaction on Doomed Intentions after another player targeted my Kaukatsu, which clearly is not correct as the dishonor effect is coming from my card, not yours. The honor loss from Paneki's trait is coming from Paneki's card, not mine, and has no bearing on Lies Lies Lies.
Are we in agreement that Spider's Lair says "You do not lose Honor from Fate and Spider Clan cards you own." And, by definition of "do not" on the Comprehensive Rules, said honor loss "simply does not happen"? How, then, is Hired Killer a card "that cause(d) their player an Honor loss"? If you can explain how a card does not cause its player an honor loss but counts as a card that caused its player an honor loss, I'll drop this line of questioning.
Martin Lund (rules official), 1 May 2008
If you can explain how a card does not cause its player an honor loss but counts as a card that caused its player an honor loss, I'll drop this line of questioning.
It does not have to "count as a card that caused its player an honor loss."
The card text on Lies, Lies, Lies ... says: "If you have no cards in play or in your discard piles that cause their player an Honor loss."
"that cause their player an Honor loss," != "that caused you to lose honor."
If "Lies, Lies, Lies ..." said "caused their player an Honor loss," I'd be on board with you. Heck, if it said, "cause you an Honor loss," I'd be more sympathetic, but the phrase "cause their player an Honor loss," seems clear to me - it wants to know what the effects of the action are as-is, not what the successfully activated or applied effects of the action would be if you specifically played the card right now.
Bayushi Paneki x4 and Bayushi Kaukatsu x2 are triggered traits
That's completely true. Paneki is not an appropriate example as he does not modify an Action's effects or costs at all. I've amended that statement. However, there are effects like those of the Crab's Strength, Kuni Daigo, or Shosuro Kamatari that all add additional costs to actions when you play them. Cards like "Deeds, Not Words" similarly add additional effects to actions whenever they resolve. You don't take any those additional costs or effects into consideration when you look for a card in a hand or discard pile with that particular cost or effect due to Blind Cards.
So does this mean that I can ignore Houritsu Mura's effect on my personality's personal honor as far as legality of announcing actions with personal honor based restrictions goes?
Personalities opposing one or more of your Magistrates have -1PH.
Doesn't look like it, assuming your card checks for a Personality with a Current Stat Value of a particular number. That number is currently modified by Houritsu Mura. Of course, specific examples would be necessary, not vague hypotheticals.
The ability text of Hired Killer in your Discard Pile, however, is not modified by The Spider's Lair. Honor losses are prevented from happening whenever you play the card, but the ability itself on the card is in no way modified. If another player copies the ability and uses it they still suffer the honor loss because the ability is not modified. The card's stats, text, and base abilities are completely unmodified by the trait.