A topic from AEG's L5R CCG Rules forum, copied for Oracle of the Void from a copy of the forum saved in October 2015, so pages it didn't save are missing. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings, the rulebooks and the Rules Archive may differ.
A player, 17 February 2008
Daidoji Murasaki Recon Open: Target a province. During battles at its battlefield, whenever you would destroy any of your Personalities as a cost, you may pay the cost by moving them home instead.
Greater Sacrifice Battle: Destroy one of your target unbowed Samurai Personalities: Destroy a target unit opposing him with total Force less than or equal to your Samurai's total unit Force, plus his Personal Honor if your Family Honor is higher than its starting value.
Bayushi Tsimaru Reaction: Twice per turn, before a unit moves: Negate the movement.
Is it possible to cancle the action by negating the movement? Referring to this topic it seems to be possible, but I'm not shure if the cost of bowing makes a diffrence. In the Comprehensive Rules I find this: If any specific payment of a cost is negated, delayed, or made impossible in the process of paying costs, the player paying the costs may use alternate available sources to pay that cost, or may choose not to pay the cost. However, if the cost was a change to the state of something in the game, and the change was negated, delayed or made impossible, the same change to the same card may not then be used as an alternate payment. [ADDED Oct 22 2007]
Referring to this Rule I would allow to pay the cost with another Personality that fullfill all restrictions of the Greater Sacrifice. Or I'm on a fales trail and something else happen cause of the Recon Action and the changed costs?
Zen Faulkes (rules official), 17 February 2008
Is it possible to cancle the action by negating the movement?
Which action?
If movement is a cost, preventing movement will prevent effects. If it isn't, it won't, because effects are independent.
A player, 19 February 2008
As it seems that my question wasn't clear enought I will rewrite it. These are the cards involved
Daidoji Murasaki Recon Open: Target a province. During battles at its battlefield, whenever you would destroy any of your Personalities as a cost, you may pay the cost by moving them home instead.
Greater Sacrifice Battle: Destroy one of your target unbowed Samurai Personalities: Destroy a target unit opposing him with total Force less than or equal to your Samurai's total unit Force, plus his Personal Honor if your Family Honor is higher than its starting value.
Bayushi Tsimaru Reaction: Twice per turn, before a unit moves: Negate the movement.
Now the situation. I targe a province with Daidoji Murasaki as an open action. After that a attack is declared both players assing Personalitys there. I assing 3 Samurais and it my first action, I play Grater Sacrifice. Due my Recon Open I don't destroy my Samurai and try to pay the cost by moving him home. But there is a Bayushi Tsimaru on my opponents side and he reacts and negates the movement. Now that is the Problem, what to do now.
Referring to this topic: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=60461&p=773636&hilit=stay+your+blade+tsimaru#p773636 The movent is negated and the action is canceled.
Referring to the Comprehensive Rules: If any specific payment of a cost is negated, delayed, or made impossible in the process of paying costs, the player paying the costs may use alternate available sources to pay that cost, or may choose not to pay the cost.
However, if the cost was a change to the state of something in the game, and the change was negated, delayed or made impossible, the same change to the same card may not then be used as an alternate payment. [ADDED Oct 22 2007] I would try to pay the cost by a alternate source, so one of my other Samurais at the battlefield.
So what is the right way?
Edit: Thanks for move it here. Wasn't shure if I can post it here.
Martin Lund (rules official), 20 February 2008
As it seems that my question wasn't clear enought I will rewrite it. These are the cards involved
Daidoji Murasaki Recon Open: Target a province. During battles at its battlefield, whenever you would destroy any of your Personalities as a cost, you may pay the cost by moving them home instead.
Greater Sacrifice Battle: Destroy one of your target unbowed Samurai Personalities: Destroy a target unit opposing him with total Force less than or equal to your Samurai's total unit Force, plus his Personal Honor if your Family Honor is higher than its starting value.
Bayushi Tsimaru Reaction: Twice per turn, before a unit moves: Negate the movement.
Now the situation. I targe a province with Daidoji Murasaki as an open action. After that a attack is declared both players assing Personalitys there. I assing 3 Samurais and it my first action, I play Grater Sacrifice. Due my Recon Open I don't destroy my Samurai and try to pay the cost by moving him home. But there is a Bayushi Tsimaru on my opponents side and he reacts and negates the movement. Now that is the Problem, what to do now.
Referring to this topic: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=60461&p=773636&hilit=stay+your+blade+tsimaru#p773636 The movent is negated and the action is canceled.
Referring to the Comprehensive Rules: If any specific payment of a cost is negated, delayed, or made impossible in the process of paying costs, the player paying the costs may use alternate available sources to pay that cost, or may choose not to pay the cost.
However, if the cost was a change to the state of something in the game, and the change was negated, delayed or made impossible, the same change to the same card may not then be used as an alternate payment. [ADDED Oct 22 2007] I would try to pay the cost by a alternate source, so one of my other Samurais at the battlefield.
So what is the right way?
Edit: Thanks for move it here. Wasn't shure if I can post it here.
1.) Target one of your unbowed Samurai Personalities 2.) Attempt to pay the cost by sending him home, thanks to Daidoji Murasaki's ability 3.) Tsimaru negates the movement, causing the cost to not be successfully paid
Now you can either choose to:
A.) let the action fail
OR
B.) pay the cost by destroying the unbowed Samurai Personality you targeted
But you may not choose to attempt to send the target home again, nor can you attempt to pay the cost by sending home or destroying any Personality other than the original target.
A player, 21 February 2008
In reference to Marty's answer to this question about Daidoji Murasaki, Greater Sacrifice and Bayushi Tsimaru.
After the third step described in Marty's answer ("Tsimaru negates the movement"), is it really allowed to pay the cost by destroying the targeted unbowed Samurai Personality ?
Indeed Murasaki's Recon's text uses 'instead' which makes me wonder whether such substitution of cost can be reversed : doesn't 'instead' imply that once this alternate optional cost is chosen, it substitutes itself for the original cost, which can no longer be chosen later ?
According to "Glossary, Instead" and the second example of substitution here, doubt consumes me so I'd like a small piece of explanation please.
Thanks in advance.
Martin Lund (rules official), 21 February 2008
In reference to Marty's answer to this question about Daidoji Murasaki, Greater Sacrifice and Bayushi Tsimaru.
After the third step described in Marty's answer ("Tsimaru negates the movement"), is it really allowed to pay the cost by destroying the targeted unbowed Samurai Personality ?
Indeed Murasaki's Recon's text uses 'instead' which makes me wonder whether such substitution of cost can be reversed : doesn't 'instead' imply that once this alternate optional cost is chosen, it substitutes itself for the original cost, which can no longer be chosen later ?
According to "Glossary, Instead" and the second example of substitution here, doubt consumes me so I'd like a small piece of explanation please.
Thanks in advance.
The Rules Team will have a little discussion about this.
I do not believe the distinction between the two substitution examples accurately reflect the current templates on alternative cost-payment options. In particular, I can't find any Samurai-legal cards are printed with the phrasing closer to Example #1 than Example #2. This would make the alternative payment clauses in the costs section of the rulebook largely moot outside of Gold Production in practice.