Obsidian Dragon with a follower thanks to a Turn of Fortune

L5R CCG Rules board, 13 November 2007

A topic from AEG's L5R CCG Rules forum, copied for Oracle of the Void from a copy of the forum saved in October 2015, so pages it didn't save are missing. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings, the rulebooks and the Rules Archive may differ.

A player, 13 November 2007

In reference to this question about Ruthless Bandits and very vaguely to this question about Share the Blame and the Equip action.

First, let me thank Mr Lund for the detailed and brilliant explanations he gave to answer both questions. It is always greatly appreciated.

If I understand them well, Ruthless Bandits' text expands the number of legal targets for the Equip Action to "any Personality" and if you play the Equip Action, you must target a card in your hand that could legally attach to the target Personality, even though there is nothing in the Rules that explicitly says you must make legal selections during the Targeting or Cost steps (quotes in italics).

Unfortunately I am not smart enough to understand the "spirit" of the rules, hidden behind their comprehensive text, which leads Mr Lund to such fascinating and wise conclusions. So let's go further and have more fun by trying to attach Ruthless Bandits to the mighty Obsidian Dragon while following the Good Faith Rule. Of course I am not asking "can I equip this follower to this Dragon ?": obviously it isn't allowed unless I am equipping with Determination !

First question. Here is the funky situation. In my hand lie one Ruthless Bandits, one Tsi Blade, one Castle of Water and a few Action cards I'll need below. I have enough Gold left to afford any attachment card. My opponent controls three Personalities: a bowed Samurai, an unbowed Monk and an unbowed Obsidian Dragon. I intend to attach Ruthless Bandits to the bowed Samurai, Ambush him and gain a big handful of honor. During my Action Phase, I announce the Equip action. I announce I intend to target the bowed Samurai. My opponent is surprised, he says I can't target his own personality. I promise I am following the Good Faith Rule, which a judge can confirm. My opponent plays Turn of Fortune nonetheless, because he wants to make my Equip action target his Obsidian Dragon. What happens at that time ?

1) Turn of Fortune for Obsidian Dragon 1.1) Ruthless Bandits' text has expanded the number of legal targets for the Equip Action to "any Personality" so this Turn of Fortune is always legal (maybe thanks to the Blind Cards rule ?): now I am equipping the Dragon. Moreover I am still compelled to target Ruthless Bandits, so this Follower card goes face-up into an entering-play area, it can't be attached to the Dragon so it returns to my face-down hand without spending any Gold. 1.2) Same as 1.1) but I am not compelled to target Ruthless Bandits, whose text has already expanded the number of legal targets, so I can target my Tsi Blade or my Castle of Water. Highly unlikely... 1.3) Same as 1.1) but I am compelled to target a card that can be attached to the Dragon: my Castle of Water. If I had none, the action wouldn't resolve.

2) Turn of Fortune not for Obsidian Dragon 2.1) The Blind Cards rule is not relevant here, I do know Obsidian Dragon is no legal target for my Equip action because the only card that allows me to attach it to a Personality I don't control, is Ruthless Bandits whereas Obsidian Dragon "can not attach Items or Followers" (card text). My duty is to call a judge and show my Ruthless Bandits to him so that he tells my opponent his Turn of Fortune can only be played if the new target is his unbowed Monk. The judge decide whether Turn of Fortune has been legally played, and my opponent MUST target his unbowed Monk, or if my opponent is free not to play Turn of Fortune. The Good Faith Rule still compels me to target my Bandits, which are finally attached legally either to the Samurai (no Turn of Fortune) or to the Monk (due to Turn of Fortune). 2.2) Same as 2.1) but as 1.2) I am not compelled to target Ruthless Bandits, whose text has already expanded the number of legal targets, so I can target my Tsi Blade. Still unlikely...

3) Something else happens. Please explain.

Second question. Actually my opponent controls no Monk, only a bowed Samurai and the unbowed Obsidian Dragon. Now is his Turn of Fortune not legal to play, or legal but with no effect ? I am thinking of the exception to the rule about Instead: "In effects that substitute targeting, if the new target has to be a "legal" target, then failure to find a new legal target -- one that satisfies the requirements of the original targeting plus any additional requirements on targeting from other sources -- means the original targeting happens normally" but I don't understand it well in such complex game state... This second question may be useful, for instance to know how many Kihos or Spells my opponent still needs to play Ring of Air, how many cards he has in hand regarding Ring of the Void, etc.

Third question. My opponent no longer controls any Dragon but an Experienced Shosuro Aroru, whom I target with the Equip action. My opponent uses Aroru's first Reaction to make me equip my own Personality. I assume most problems about targets my opponents control that are legal or not legal, and about what can be attached to them, have already been dealt with above. Here is the question: even if I am finally equipping my own Personality like a standard Equip action, am I still compelled to equip her with Ruthless Bandits because I couldn't have taken this action (and my opponent couldn't have used Aroru's ability) without intending to play them, or am I now free to attach to my Personality any legal attachment card she can be legally given ?

Thanks for reading.

Martin Lund (rules official), 13 November 2007

In reference to this question about Ruthless Bandits and very vaguely to this question about Share the Blame and the Equip action.

First, let me thank Mr Lund for the detailed and brilliant explanations he gave to answer both questions. It is always greatly appreciated.

If I understand them well, Ruthless Bandits' text expands the number of legal targets for the Equip Action to "any Personality"

The actual card text is, "When playing this card from your hand, you may attach it to a Personality you do not control. (This card then is controlled by the Personality's controller.)"

Ergo, any player's personality, rather than just your own personality. You must still abide any other Restrictions on attachments - Honor Requirements, "will not attach to an X," or "can not attach X card," clauses, etc.

During my Action Phase, I announce the Equip action. I announce I intend to target the bowed Samurai. My opponent is surprised, he says I can't target his own personality. I promise I am following the Good Faith Rule, which a judge can confirm. My opponent plays Turn of Fortune nonetheless, because he wants to make my Equip action target his Obsidian Dragon. What happens at that time ?

You have no card that can legally attach to Obsidian Dragon in your hand. Ruthless Bandits is the only card you can attach to the other player's Personalities. Ruthless Bandits can not attach to Obsidian Dragon due to the Obsidian Dragon's trait. The Action fails due to illegality caused by another player altering the action's targeting. Treat it the same way you would an illegal targeting configuration as below:

From the point when the action is announced legally to the point where the targeting is required, if any of the action’s required targeting is interfered with and required targeting can no longer be met, the action’s effects do not resolve and its costs are waived. It is still considered taken, but not resolved. If it was on an Action card, the card is discarded normally.

In a tournament, if you want to be certain that the acting player had a legal play and now has no legal play due to the redirection, call a judge.

Second question. Actually my opponent controls no Monk, only a bowed Samurai and the unbowed Obsidian Dragon. Now is his Turn of Fortune not legal to play, or legal but with no effect? I am thinking of the exception to the rule about Instead: "In effects that substitute targeting, if the new target has to be a "legal" target, then failure to find a new legal target -- one that satisfies the requirements of the original targeting plus any additional requirements on targeting from other sources -- means the original targeting happens normally" but I don't understand it well in such complex game state...

Kind of a hedge case, but it would be safe to say that the redirection is legal, since the Attachment Targeting hasn't been publicly declared yet. Yes, the acting player knows he would have to target Ruthless Bandits to make the play legal, but he still hasn't done so yet.

Turn of Fortune resolves normally. The Attachment Action will just fail as above.

Third question. My opponent no longer controls any Dragon but an Experienced Shosuro Aroru, whom I target with the Equip action. My opponent uses Aroru's first Reaction to make me equip my own Personality. I assume most problems about targets my opponents control that are legal or not legal, and about what can be attached to them, have already been dealt with above.

Here is the question: even if I am finally equipping my own Personality like a standard Equip action, am I still compelled to equip her with Ruthless Bandits because I couldn't have taken this action (and my opponent couldn't have used Aroru's ability) without intending to play them, or am I now free to attach to my Personality any legal attachment card she can be legally given ?

Hm, I could see the argument going either way on this one. On the one hand, one might argue that you have to attach a card that allowed the original targeting if possible. On the other hand, you haven't actually targeted a card in your hand yet and the current play, as it stands, has no such restriction.

I'll kick it up to the whole of the Rules Team and see if the Designers want to chime in on it any.

Oh, and Determination can't actually get past Attachment Restrictions either, as per the Glossary entry on "cannot":

EXCEPTION: In card text, when referring to entering play, attaching, using a trait, or taking an action, "cannot" and "can only" are restrictions on the legality of that thing in the first place, not negation of its effects.

- Marty Lund Deputy Rules Monkey