A topic from AEG's L5R CCG Rules forum, copied for Oracle of the Void from a copy of the forum saved in October 2015, so pages it didn't save are missing. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings, the rulebooks and the Rules Archive may differ.
A player, 29 August 2007
My multi-part question (sorry): The CR says "Effects occur in the order they are written. All effects are separate, even if they joined by the word "and."
Does this also apply to the word "then"? Or are two things that are seemingly separate effects, when linked by the word "then", considered a single effect? Or, yet a third option, are they a sort of "delayed effect chain", so that when the first effect occurs, the "then" causes the second effect to occur before resolving any other effects that might be occuring simultaneously with the first?
I'm asking because of the below:
It was ruled first here that two Bayushi Sayas targeting the same Personality would cause two honor losses. Later, the ruling was reversed here.
If the answer to my first question above is "yes" (thus having the honor loss and the dishonoring be two separate effects, independently occuring in the order written), then I think the linked question was answered correctly the first time. Consider; the dishonoring would always happen after the honor loss. If two Saya abilities, amounting to four delayed effects, attempt to resolve at the same time, wouldn't the only timing conflicts be between the two honor losses, and then the two dishonorings? The active player would choose which loss would occur first, but both WOULD occur, followed by two dishonoring effects which would also be simultaneous and chosen to resolve in either order. However, if the answer is "yes" to either of my other two questions instead, then this is obviously void and the reversal should stand.
Let me say, in respectful conclusion, that I strongly feel the exact reasoning behind the above linked answers should have been included in said answers, to help in constructing more concise follow-up questions or eliminate the need for them entirely. Again, I'm sorry about the length of this post, and I thank you for your time.
Zen Faulkes (rules official), 29 August 2007
My multi-part question (sorry): The CR says "Effects occur in the order they are written. All effects are separate, even if they joined by the word "and."
Does this also apply to the word "then"? Or are two things that are seemingly separate effects, when linked by the word "then", considered a single effect? Or, yet a third option, are they a sort of "delayed effect chain", so that when the first effect occurs, the "then" causes the second effect to occur before resolving any other effects that might be occuring simultaneously with the first?
I'm asking because of the below:
It was ruled first here that two Bayushi Sayas targeting the same Personality would cause two honor losses. Later, the ruling was reversed here.
If the answer to my first question above is "yes" (thus having the honor loss and the dishonoring be two separate effects, independently occuring in the order written), then I think the linked question was answered correctly the first time. Consider; the dishonoring would always happen after the honor loss. If two Saya abilities, amounting to four delayed effects, attempt to resolve at the same time, wouldn't the only timing conflicts be between the two honor losses, and then the two dishonorings? The active player would choose which loss would occur first, but both WOULD occur, followed by two dishonoring effects which would also be simultaneous and chosen to resolve in either order. However, if the answer is "yes" to either of my other two questions instead, then this is obviously void and the reversal should stand.
Let me say, in respectful conclusion, that I strongly feel the exact reasoning behind the above linked answers should have been included in said answers, to help in constructing more concise follow-up questions or eliminate the need for them entirely. Again, I'm sorry about the length of this post, and I thank you for your time.
Kicking to the Rules Junta.
Zen Faulkes (rules official), 29 August 2007
Here's how it works.
If you multiple actions, each with multiple delayed effects, you resolve the effects of each action individually (in order determined by active player) before moving on to the next set of delayed effects from the next action.
In the case of multiple Bayushi Saya, this means:
Bayushi Saya #1: Honor loss equal to current PH, then dishonor. Bayushi Saya #2: Honor loss equal to current PH (which is now 0PH due to effect of Bayushi Saya #1), then dishonor.
You cannot do this:
Bayushi Saya #1: Honor loss equal to current PH. Bayushi Saya #2: Honor loss equal to current PH. Bayushi Saya #1: Dishonor. Bayushi Saya #2: Dishonor.
This will also be true is the source is not an action, like an Event, but for the sake of simplicity, actions are used as an example here.