Konishiko, Suitengu's Surge...

First, If I Surge my Unit with the Imperial Standard attached to the Personality, what happens when it tries to come back?

A. It come s back into play without any Honor Gain or Favor-discarding.

B. It only comes back into play if I discard the Favor, but no honor-gain

occurs.

C. It only comes back into play if I discard the Favor, but if I do, I gain

4 Honor.

Relevant text:

Suitengu's Surge

Reaction: Before an action targets a unit you control, bow this Shugenja:

Remove the unit from the game. Return it to the game, with all attached

cards and tokens, before the beginning of the next turn.

Imperial Standard

Unique * Putting this card into play from your hand is a Political action.

You must use and discard the Imperial Favor to bring the Imperial Standard

into play. Gain 4 Honor. Each Follower in this unit gains +2F and is immune

to Fear while Imperial Standard is attached.

And this, too, made us raise our eyebrows :

If I give Konishiko a Political Entanglement as her new abitlity, what is

the deal with the "You may make this reduction permanent by raising this

card's Gold cost by 3 when you play it." ?

Am I reading it right if I say that by raising Konishiko's Gold Cost by 3 I

can make the effect permanent?

Konishiko : Reaction: After Konishiko enters play or overlays: Once per

game, search your hand and discard pile for a Political Action card.

Permanently give her one of its Limited or Open actions; she may take the

action once per turn and bows as an additional effect. Remove the card from the game.

Political Entanglements : Political Limited: Bow one of your Courtiers to

reduce all numerals printed on a target Personality by 1. You may make this reduction permanent by raising this card's Gold cost by 3 when you play it.

Thanks to anyone wanting to answer, but I'd rather only have official rule guys' opinion, here. I don't want to read through 3 pages of wild guesses.

1. Answer #3 It only comes back into play if I discard the Favor, but if I do, I gain

4 Honor. Thats a whole unit if you fail to discard the favor when its suppose to come back and you dont you simply lose the unit.

2. Yeah you raise her Gold cost by 3 which wont at all matter.

1. Answer #3 It only comes back into play if I discard the Favor, but if I do, I gain

4 Honor. Thats a whole unit if you fail to discard the favor when its suppose to come back and you dont you simply lose the unit.

I'm unsure of what you call a unit here. However, whatever you mean, it has nothing to do here. As an entering play restriction, you must discard the imperial favor. So if you don't discard the imperial favor, your standard will just stay in the out-game space. Anyway, if it comes into play (what is the case with Suitengu's Surge, per card text), it triggers all "entering play" effect, in our case : "gain 4 honnor". I've reach the same conclusion though .

Togashi Imura

The unit meaning the personality that has The standard attached what did you think i meant by unit.

The unit meaning the personality that has The standard attached what did you think i meant by unit.

Then you were wrong, I'm sure you won't lose the whole unit if the Standard fail to enter play.

Togashi Imura

You wouldn't lose the unit, just the standard. I think that's what Kenshiro-sama is trying to say. I'm not sure about the political entanglements question, as it says "when you bring this card into play". I would assume that trigger would only take effect when bringing the attached peep into play.

I'm not sure about the political entanglements question, as it says "when you bring this card into play". I would assume that trigger would only take effect when bringing the attached peep into play.

Well... and it most likely won't happen. I wonder when exactly you are considering playing a card (by the way, wasn't the motto: "nomore Blessing of Isawa-s" what happened?). For example, would a Feign Death qualify?

I guess this is some Jeff's job here.

Togashi Imura

wild guess : C and Yes

no i was saying That the whole unit cant return. But i could be wrong.

Am I reading it right if I say that by raising Konishiko's Gold Cost by 3 I can make the effect permanent?

Why would you rise her gold cost? Political Entangelments cost 0, if you want the said effect to be permament, you rise gold cost of this action by 3. So it means when you use Konishiko with build in P.E. , you can pay 3 to make this action effect (-1 to numerals) permament. That's all.

I believe this has already been ruled upon by Marty on the ccg-mailing list.Not positive,but I think he said that Konishiko's gold cost is increased.

I believe this has already been ruled upon by Marty on the ccg-mailing list.Not positive,but I think he said that Konishiko's gold cost is increased.

I believe the ruling made on the ML concerned the gold cost and variable gold cost of the copied card. Stating that you don't need to pay it. Perhaps it went over cost raise of Strike with No Shadow too. But the specific wording of this card is kinda confusing. However, Konishiko will be confusing until the end of the Lotus, you can bet ^_^, maybe, she will be even considered before each time a political card is made, because of the confusion that would happen if Konishiko could copy it.

Now, I'd say, wait for Marty or Zen on this one.

Togashi Imura

maybe, she will be even considered before each time a political card is made, because of the confusion that would happen if Konishiko could copy it.

and from this point on, all political action cards will be Reactions so that Konishiko won't be able to copy them, thereby reducing the headaches the Rules Junta gets regarding her.

no i was saying That the whole unit cant return. But i could be wrong.

I'm wrong.

Going back to the Suitengu's Surge/Imperial Standard question, I don't have the same reaction that most of you have as to the answer.

First, Suitengu's Surge provides the following regarding returning to play/entering play: "Return it [the original card] to the game, with all attached

cards and tokens, before the beginning of the next turn." The key wording here is that it will include "all attached cards and tokens." It does not say "Return it to the game, with all attached cards and tokens, paying all costs for those cards and tokens, before the beginning of the next turn."

Second, the accumulated rulings state that all entering play effects occur (i.e., Shosuro's dynasty discard, and the like). It does not say that costs need to be paid (or paid again).

Therefore, looking at the Imperial Standard, discarding the favor is a cost, not an effect. Therefore, you would not have to discard the favor again to keep the Standard attached. The more interesting question here is that the the entering play effect is the 4 honor gain. It would appear that when your personality re-entered play, you would gain another 4 honor.

Now, I could be wrong about all the above. If I missed some logic or interpreted something wrong regarding costs, entering play effects, or anything else, please let me know. The rest is just food for thought.

Suitengu's Surge

Reaction: Before an action targets a unit you control, bow this Shugenja:

Remove the unit from the game. Return it to the game, with all attached

cards and tokens, before the beginning of the next turn.

If the above statement is verbatem, why would you have to pay any costs or have any entering play effects occur?

If the above statement is verbatem, why would you have to pay any costs or have any entering play effects occur?

Entering play effects occur again when the unit is returned. [ML, 2 December 2004]

don't know about paying costs, though.

don't know about paying costs, though.

They don't need to be payed (otherwise, surge would be quite expensive ). Yet, it seems that the discarding the favor part is no cost.

Togashi Imura

Any chance we could get an official ruling on this one? This could be an interesting honor rocket technique, even if you did have to discard the favor every time the standard reenters play.

Any chance we could get an official ruling on this one?

I second that.