Can we get an official ruling on whether Keen Eye can negate the RoF reaction?
Keen Eye and RoF
A topic from AEG's L5R CCG Rules forum, copied for Oracle of the Void from the Wayback Machine (its copy), so posts it didn't save are missing. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings, the rulebooks and the Rules Archive may differ.
RoF?
I know I'm showing my ignorance but what is RoF?
I think he means Ring of Fire and the reaction can be cancelled by Keen Eye as far as I know and how it was ruled over here.
So is that ruling right? @officials
Hello.
Ring of fire:
Elemental Reaction: Bow Ring of Fire after a duel involving one of
your Personalities ends to draw a number of cards equal to the number
you focused from your hand in that duel.
Keen eye:
Reaction: Negate the effects of a Reaction taken by another player during
a challenge or duel involving one of your Personalities. Draw a Fate card.
You cant use keen eye on ring of fire(Card Text).The duel was finished before.
(it may be diferent for Wanton Destruction)
Greetings.
Hello.
Ring of fire:
Elemental Reaction: Bow Ring of Fire after a duel involving one of
your Personalities ends to draw a number of cards equal to the number
you focused from your hand in that duel.
Keen eye:
Reaction: Negate the effects of a Reaction taken by another player during
a challenge or duel involving one of your Personalities. Draw a Fate card.
You cant use keen eye on ring of fire(Card Text).The duel was finished before.
(it may be diferent for Wanton Destruction)
Greetings.
Wrong!
Duels
When one Personality steps in for another in a duel, the duel's results apply to the new Personality as if he were the original. [DW, 3/11/97]
Because focuses provide a stat bonus, effects that prevent bonuses affect focusing. [Reversal, JA, email, 30 August 2000]
Everything that occurs after a challenge is accepted is "during a duel." [JA, 7 November 2001], including destroying the loser. Thus, if Reactions are not allowed during a duel, a Reaction played after the death of a Personality is illegal (e.g., Feign Death), unless the Personality dies before duel resolution. [JA, 28 August 2003; email, October 2003]
An action creating a challenge must begin resolve before anything can happen "during" the challenge. E.g., the action can be canceled, even if reactions are not allowed during challenges. [JA, 16 December 2001, 2 March 2004]
Anything that restricts your focusing choices in a duel based on Focus values (e.g., Blade of Truths) does so based on the cards' values before they're focused. [JA, 3 April 2002]
If a stat (e.g., Chi) is changed during a duel by replacing a value from another stat (e.g., Personal Honor in Face Me!), the original stat (i.e., Chi) is still being used. Reactions affect the original stat, not the one the new stat value was based on. [JA, 3 April 2002].
In a duel of Personal Honor, a dishonored Personality cannot raise his Personal Honor above 0 by focusing, because "dishonored = 0 Personal Honor" is always applied last. [JA, 26 November 2002, 5 December 2002]
Honor gains occur after the destruction of the losing Personality. [PJ, l5r-fr, 14 March 2003]
Chi bonuses last until all effects of the duel resolve, including honor gains. [PJ, l5r-fr, 14 March 2003]
Replacing one Personality in a duel with another does not cause them to change locations. [JA, 25 March 2003]
Outside effects and reactions triggered by winning or losing a duel occur before the results of the duel itself, because winning occurs when Chi totals are compared and one is found to be higher. [JA, 19-20 February 2004]
A card that says a player must focus (e.g., Mirumoto) only removes the option to strike. Reactions played instead of focusing are legal. [JA, 15 November 2004]
Discarding a focus card or modifying its focus value affects the bonus it provided. [JA, 23 November 2004]
The Duelist trait has no standard effect, and exists only for interaction with other cards. [Reversal, JA, 6 December 2004]
If an effect creates additional results for winning or losing a duel (e.g., Uso Sensei):
Multiple results apply in the order they're written. [JA, email, 9 December 2004]
If there is no explicit result for losing, "destroy the loser" occurs after the results of winning (if any). [JA, email, 9 December 2004]
If another result of winning or losing is added, it is appended to the ones that already exist (if any). [JA, email, 9 December 2004]
If multiple results are added at the same time, the active player decides which order they're added in. Each one added is still added after all existing results. [JA, email, 9 December 2004]
There is a timewindow "after the duel" or "since the duel started" until a new open/limited/pass action has been performed (outside of a reaction chain). So anything since the start of an duel (so the duel has not been canceled on its own --- negation is something different again) until the next "action" can be negated with a Keen Eye.
I appreciate the intent to help here guys, but there is a reason I asked for an official ruling, and the last two posts show why. So no one else except for an official answer please.
Can we get an official ruling on whether Keen Eye can negate the RoF reaction?
Yes, you can: no, it can't.
Additional: The Archive ruling saying "everything after the challenge is taken is 'during'" is there to say that the duel doesn't end when one Personality loses; other effects may still have to occur (e.g., honor gain). The Ring of Fire is triggered "after the duel," which I take to mean the duel-initiating action / effect has completely resolved, putting it outside of the reach of Keen Eye. (I mean, if you read the Archive entry literally enough, a duel never ends, since the Archive entry says "everything after that point is during a duel" and doesn't spell out an end point when the duel is done...)
On: Keen Eye
Zen Faulkes wrote:Mithras wrote:
Can we get an official ruling on whether Keen Eye can negate the RoF reaction?
Yes, you can: no, it can't.
Wow, two questions answered in one sentence. Is that skill, or what?!
I'm also awed
Zen Faulkes wrote:
Mithras wrote:
Can we get an official ruling on whether Keen Eye can negate the RoF reaction?
Yes, you can: no, it can't.
Wow, two questions answered in one sentence. Is that skill, or what?!
Zen is the Man. Has been for years.
Apparently this is still up in the air, as Zen admits that he might be incorrect.
Oy. For all the things people say are "wrong with L5R", the only actual one is how bad of a mess its rules are. There really isn't good reason for it, either.
Just one more argument:
Most supporters of "Keen Eye works" mentioned that after the duel is still during the duel.
Ring of Fire does not say "after the duel", it says "after the duel ends" !
That could bring it out of Keen Eye's reach.
Just one more argument:
Most supporters of "Keen Eye works" mentioned that after the duel is still during the duel.
Ring of Fire does not say "after the duel", it says "after the duel ends" !
That could bring it out of Keen Eye's reach.
I am not aware that there is any empirical evidence showing that there's a difference between the two. This all comes back to how loosely worded L5R cards are.
Anyway. There should be an answer soon.
Apparently this is still up in the air, as Zen admits that he might be incorrect.
Oy. For all the things people say are "wrong with L5R", the only actual one is how bad of a mess its rules are. There really isn't good reason for it, either.
When on this post did Zen say that he might be wrong? Zen has ruled on it, so unless Jeff overrules him, or if you have a previous ruling that contradicts this one, assume that he's right.
james_lippens wrote:
Apparently this is still up in the air, as Zen admits that he might be incorrect.
Oy. For all the things people say are "wrong with L5R", the only actual one is how bad of a mess its rules are. There really isn't good reason for it, either.
When on this post did Zen say that he might be wrong? Zen has ruled on it, so unless Jeff overrules him, or if you have a previous ruling that contradicts this one, assume that he's right.
http://www.tsuruchi.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=9961&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=20
Yes, assume that Zen is right, until he's contradicted. Which, unfortunately, happens rather frequently, and largely through no fault of Zen.
Kaiu Toshiba wrote:
Just one more argument:
Most supporters of "Keen Eye works" mentioned that after the duel is still during the duel.
Ring of Fire does not say "after the duel", it says "after the duel ends" !
That could bring it out of Keen Eye's reach.
I am not aware that there is any empirical evidence showing that there's a difference between the two. This all comes back to how loosely worded L5R cards are.
Anyway. There should be an answer soon.
hhmmmmm...
No empirical evidence. hmm... Me think hepum big Crane Player use too big um word.
So do the phrases "during your end phase" and "after your end phase" mean exactly the same thing to you james?
This ruling also affects Daidoji Takihiro, Rising Terror, Swordmaster Dojo and may affect Legendary Confrontation. I am not personally excited about the current ruling but I understand and happen to agree with the ruling Zen gave us.
james_lippens wrote:
Kaiu Toshiba wrote:
Just one more argument:
Most supporters of "Keen Eye works" mentioned that after the duel is still during the duel.
Ring of Fire does not say "after the duel", it says "after the duel ends" !
That could bring it out of Keen Eye's reach.
I am not aware that there is any empirical evidence showing that there's a difference between the two. This all comes back to how loosely worded L5R cards are.
Anyway. There should be an answer soon.
hhmmmmm...
No empirical evidence. hmm... Me think hepum big Crane Player use too big um word.
Well, don't say I'm not a nice guy. For those of you who missed that English class:
em·pir·i·cal (m-pr-kl)
adj.
Relying on or derived from observation or experiment.
Verifiable or provable by means of observation or experiment.
Of or being a philosophy of medicine emphasizing practical experience and observation over scientific theory.
So do the phrases "during your end phase" and "after your end phase" mean exactly the same thing to you james?
No, they don't. It certainly reads as if it doesn't work. However, seeing as how L5R rulings tend to make no logical amount of sense, I'm willing to believe that my "gut feeling", that it doesn't work because it clearly is worded as if it doesn't work, will end up being wrong.
This ruling also affects Daidoji Takihiro, Rising Terror, Swordmaster Dojo and may affect Legendary Confrontation. I am not personally excited about the current ruling but I understand and happen to agree with the ruling Zen gave us.
Absolutely, again, I agree with Zen's ruling also. Not that the fact that we agree that it makes sense means anything.
My question is a little more subtle than if I'm asking if it's just an Earth card. Basically, I'm asking if the Earth Dragon and Isawa Taeruko (etc.) can cast summon the earth kami without bowing.
As for the Kami thing, I'm 100% certain that it is a kami personality. Reason being is that the card "cavalry reserves" was already said to be a cavalry card. When you can break something out of a title like that, I don't see how you can't break something out of a trait like that as well. Same goes for the Follower "legion of the kami." It may be a "legion" but it is also a "kami" card.
gah, posted in the wrong place.
I would have to disagree with Zen's ruling only because of the previous poster that showed the time line of actions.....I believe that the duel continues even after it has been resolved by counting focus and stats until the next action not reaction is performed.
From now, you can disagree as much as you want, but his ruling is official.
Now, one thing : "after the duel", is after "during the duel" ends (almost for sure), however, it might still be "during the challenge", that's where I guess you might doubt. Zen rule it didn't work, that's all we know yet .
Togashi Imura
Unless Jeff overrules, Zen's ruling is authority.
Everything that occurs after a challenge is accepted is "during a duel." [JA, 7 November 2001], including destroying the loser. Thus, if Reactions are not allowed during a duel, a Reaction played after the death of a Personality is illegal (e.g., Feign Death), unless the Personality dies before duel resolution. [JA, 28 August 2003; email, October 2003]
Would this include buying my cards in the dynasty phase? How about ending my turn? C'mon people, there is a limitation here. Everything that occurs after the challenge is accepted is "during a duel"... UNTIL IT ENDS. Ring of Fire specifically states that its effect timing is after the duel ends. Just as you can't play a reaction to "during my turn" after I've discarded down to 8 and passed, and you can't play a reaction to "during a duel" after the duel is done and over.
First, I didnt mean to try to overstep Zen's Authority and recognize his knowledge of the game from the early beginnings.
Second, I rescend my earlier comment as well, since re-reading the FAQ and rulings sheets I got a new understanding of the game flow with duels......
Challenge initiated by an action......all reactions that trigger occur at this point
Focus or strike portion of duel........all reactions that trigger occur and this is where Keen Eyes can be used.
Resolution of duel (or end).......all reactions that trigger occur and this is where ROF is used.
The rulings listed above was to show where the "during the duel" portion actually begins and the end is at the resolution which I misconstrued.
Again my apologize to any that was offended by my earlier statement.
Unless Jeff overrules, Zen's ruling is authority.
I don't see anyone seeing otherwise. Thanks for making that extra clear to anyone who didn't know that already, though.
I don't see anyone seeing otherwise. Thanks for making that extra clear to anyone who didn't know that already, though.
"During" and "after" are distinct times. Keen Eye cannot react to a Reaction used "after a duel" or "after a duel ends", such as the Reaction on the Ring of Fire. (Nor can it react to a Reaction used before a challenge is issued.) This all comes directly from card text.
The claim that the Archive says that the time period of "during a duel" encompasses everything, even after the duel has ended, until the next opportunity for any player take a normal Limited/Open/Battle action, is an unfounded extrapolation of its actual contents and is incorrect.
On: Keen Eye
Jeff Alexander wrote:"During" and "after" are distinct times. Keen Eye cannot react to a Reaction used "after a duel" or "after a duel ends", such as the Reaction on the Ring of Fire. (Nor can it react to a Reaction used before a challenge is issued.) This all comes directly from card text.
Thank the lord, players being able to actually figure out rules of the game based on knowledge of "the English language" and "reason". If only it wasn't like this more often.
Almost... Here's the order.
1. Challenge action is issued.
a. any reactions to this are played.
2. Challenge is accepted or refused. (let's assume accepted, for this)
THE DUEL HAS STARTED AT THIS POINT.
a. any reactions to this are played. Keen eye can cancel from here on
3. personalities focus/strike in turn.
a. reactions to focusing or striking go here. Keen eye can cancel.
4. focus cards are revealed. A winner is determined at this point.
a. Reactions to revealing focuses go here. Keen eye works.
5. Each effect of winning and losing is resolved, from most recent to the original.
(i.e. Uso sensei destruction triggers before Test of might's bow)
a. Reactions to winning/losing effects (death, honor loss, etc) go here. Keen eye can cancel.
6. Focuses are discarded, duel ends.
a. Reactions to the discarding/duel ending go here. Keen eye can cancel.
7. Immediately after duel ends.
a. Reactions to after the duel ends go here. Keen eye no longer works. (this is where ring of fire works)