Tangen + Saemon Infinity

Made the mistake of using Rokku's harpoon on a Scorpion Tangen Sensei player with an unbowed Shosuro Saemon.

With growing horror watch the Scorpion player redirect adinfinitum and give Saemon 10 million ninja followers.

Similar result if the Scorpion player declares an attack and you target someone with the Underhand or Outmaneuvered in Court.

I think this is illegal. Even if an action is redirected, it's still the same action. Therefore, it should be the same trigger still. I don't think Tangen can redirect more than once.

I'll ask it here just to be sure. Am I correct?

The rule book states that if you redirect an action, "treat it as if it had been aimed at its new target all along." I think you're right, it's still the same action, so you can't redirect it more than once per battle.

It happens in the assignment phase, so it is not restricted by the clause "once per battle." However, the action is still the same action, so Tangen Sensei can only react to it once for each instance. If you use three different Rokku's, Tangen Sensei could redirect each of them once, and none of those redirects would count against the senei's limit during any battle.

It happens in the assignment phase, so it is not restricted by the clause "once per battle." However, the action is still the same action, so Tangen Sensei can only react to it once for each instance. If you use three different Rokku's, Tangen Sensei could redirect each of them once, and none of those redirects would count against the senei's limit during any battle.

It does not matter if it is the same action. It matters if it is the same TRIGGER.

Tangen Sensei says:

Reaction: After an action targets a card you control during an Attack Phase: Once per battle, redirect the action.

Shosuro Saemon says:

Reaction: After another player's action targets Saemon: Target a Personality you control. Give him a 1F Ninja Follower token.

The rulebook on page 75 says:

Reactions (have) a trigger to which it reacts, and you take it when that trigger happens. If you are going to take a Reaction, you must take it as soon as its trigger occurs.'

The rulebook goes on to say:

All players may react to the same trigger in turn until everybody passes consecutively...each printed instance of a Reaction can be used only once per trigger. (It's legal to use multiple identical Reactions if they all come from different physical cards).

Therefore, before deciding whether Tangen Sensei's reaction can be used multiple times, look at the Trigger.

The trigger for Tangen Sensei to use the reaction is AFTER AN ACTION TARGETS A CARD YOU CONTROL.

If Rokku targets Card A and the Scorpion Clan player then Reacts with Tangen redirecting it to Saemon, that we know is legal. Saemon then REACTS to the targetting as per his Reaction and creates a Ninja Token. Since the TRIGGER for the Tangen Sensei reaction is Targetting a card, ANOTHER instance of the trigger is created seperate and apart from the original targetting. The Scorpion Clan player may then redirect the action elsewhere and then redirect it back to Saemon ad infinitum using the seperate targetting of cards as seperate and distinct triggers.

So, Kitsu Fatuso is indeed correct.

Maybe I'm not seeing something here. Let's break it down here:

You declare an attack. I play Outmaneuvered by Court, targetting one of your personalities.

I have just targetted your peep with an action, so Tangen Sensei's trigger goes off.

You use Tangen Sensei to redirect it to Saemon.

Saemon's trigger goes off, allowing you to target one of your guys and get a Ninja Follower token.

Tangen Sensei's trigger goes off, allowing you to redirect the action of giving a Ninja Follower token to someone else.

Where are you getting more triggers for Saemon? Saemon's trigger is when ANOTHER PLAYER'S action targets him.

Maybe I'm not seeing something here. Let's break it down here:

You declare an attack. I play Outmaneuvered by Court, targetting one of your personalities.

I have just targetted your peep with an action, so Tangen Sensei's trigger goes off.

You use Tangen Sensei to redirect it to Saemon.

Saemon's trigger goes off, allowing you to target one of your guys and get a Ninja Follower token.

Tangen Sensei's trigger goes off, allowing you to redirect the action of giving a Ninja Follower token to someone else.

Where are you getting more triggers for Saemon? Saemon's trigger is when ANOTHER PLAYER'S action targets him.

You got most of the way. Tangen Sensei redirects the action to Saemon. The action is now targetting Saemon - this is a NEW TRIGGER. Off that new trigger, you can play as many Reactions as possible (only one per printed card, however). So, I choose to use Saemon's Reaction to create a Ninja Follower token on ANY Personality AND THEN use Tangen's Reaction to redirect the action (which the opposing player played) to a new Target. The redirection to a new target creates a NEW TRIGGER (the targetting of that card) thus allowing Tangen to use its Reaction yet again to redirect it BACK to Saemon. You can fill in the rest of the blanks....

But redirection does not count as initiating a target. It's as if it had been targeted by the action from it's creation. I stand by the conclusion that this situation is impossible by the current rules.

But redirection does not count as initiating a target.

This is true. However, once the redirection is resolved, the action is now targeting Saemon, AND this is a new trigger because Saemon doesn’t react to the action, he reacts to the actual targeting that happens. Since this is a new targeting (even though it is the same action that is doing the targeting), a new trigger is created.

It's as if it had been targeted by the action from it's creation. I stand by the conclusion that this situation is impossible by the current rules.

Unfortunately, the rules authorities disagree with your conclusion.

Each time the action is redirected, it re-targets and thus causes a new trigger for Saemon.

Zen Faulkes wrote:

Doji Tsukaede wrote:

Unfortunately, the rules authorities disagree with your conclusion.

Reference?

I have looked at the archive. There is nothing there that is on point. As was said in an earlier post - when Tangen redirects, it re-targets allowing Tangen to redirect the action between Saemon and another target ad infinitum.

If this is not correct, then someone please let me know why and where it can be found in the Archive.

This card combo needs some sort of change, regardless. If it's not a legal combo, they need to be clarified. If it is a legal combo, at least one needs to be errata'd.

Hummm.

I was certain I remembered seeing a post (on l5r-CCG I thought) that asked if the infinite Saemon combo was legal and Jeff’s answer was simply:

“Yes, legal.”

Sadly however, I cannot find said post. For now my reply is unsubstantiated.

OKAY!!! so this whole back and forth deal is NOT during a battle correct?

OKAY!!! so this whole back and forth deal is NOT during a battle correct?

Yup. That is correct. It is NOT during a battle, but during the Assignment Phase of the Attack Phase.

This issue is what is a trigger, and what is a new trigger.

If the action targets Saemon first, you have the option to redirect or use his built in reaction. You can use both, provided you use them in the sensible order, 1) React with Saemon, 2) Wait for opponent to pass, 3) Redirect with Tangen Sensei. Here, both reactions are clearly reacting to the same trigger.

[O]nce the redirection is resolved, the action is now targeting Saemon, AND this is a new trigger because Saemon doesn’t react to the action, he reacts to the actual targeting that happens. Since this is a new targeting (even though it is the same action that is doing the targeting), a new trigger is created.

Should you redirect an action, treat it as though it had been aimed at its new target all along.

You may react as many times as you like to any trigger, but remember that you can't take your second Reaction until everyone else has had a chance to take one, and that sometimes a Reaction changes the trigger in such a way that further Reactions aren't legal. Also, each printed instance of a Reaction can be used only once per trigger. (It's legal to use multiple identical Reactions if they all come from different physical cards.)

This seems to imply that there is still a single trigger, whether it is Rokku or Outmaneuvered in Court, the action occurs, then we have the chance to play reactions. 1) You redirect to Saemon, 2) Wait for opponent to pass, 3) React with Saemon. What you call a new trigger, I believe is simply your next opportunity to react to the same trigger. In this instance, your reaction has made another reaction legal now.

Actually, what Jeff said was that you may redirect with Tangen Sensei any number of times before the battle starts.... Not the same action any number of times. I think all he was saying was that you were not limited by its "Once per battle" clause. Looking in the rulebook, it states that, upon redirection, an action is considered to have targetted the person it's being redirected to all along. To me, this means that there is no new trigger for Saemon to continue reacting to, and thus cannot produce a finite amount of followers.

so if this infinite works then would that mean that a duel acceptance to a crane perp and nizomi can react a billion times to infinite to boost duealing stat too

i think the answer to this remains in that ruling that was submitted a long time ago

so if this infinite works then would that mean that a duel acceptance to a crane perp and nizomi can react a billion times to infinite to boost duealing stat too

i think the answer to this remains in that ruling that was submitted a long time ago

Um, no... The question really is, or it should be, is this. Does redirecting the action create a NEW trigger that Saemon can react to; or is it just the same trigger, and he can't react more than once. Also, I just saw these cool emoticons, so HIYA

Renaissance wrote:

so if this infinite works then would that mean that a duel acceptance to a crane perp and nizomi can react a billion times to infinite to boost duealing stat too

i think the answer to this remains in that ruling that was submitted a long time ago

Um, no... The question really is, or it should be, is this. Does redirecting the action create a NEW trigger that Saemon can react to; or is it just the same trigger, and he can't react more than once.

The answer to that question is yes. Each redirection creates a new Trigger. Bear with me again:

Tangen Sensei says:

Reaction: After an action targets a card you control during an Attack Phase: Once per battle, redirect the action.

The trigger on Tangen sensei clearly says it is AFTER an action TARGETS.

Similarily, Shosuro Saemon says:

Reaction: After another player’s action targets Saemon: Target a Personality you control. Give him a 1F Ninja Follower token. Battle: Once per battle, target a Personality you control. Give him 1F Ninja Follower token.

This clearly states "AFTER another player's action TARGETS..."

Both of these cards have as their TRIGGER, the phrase AFTER an action TARGETS.

Redirecting the action re-targets the card, creating a new TRIGGER for these cards to work off.

Hey, no matter which way this gets decided, I'll be happy. Although I like this combo, it will completely hoop any reactions Design would create for the Assignment phase of an Attack.

You can redirect an action or effect only to something else it could have targetted originally. On the other hand, you are free to choose any of its player's other original possible targets, ignoring restrictions on what you are allowed to target. Should you redirect an action, treat it as though it had been aimed at its new target all along. You cannot redirect untargetted actions or actions that give no choice for their target (such as a card that "targets your stronghold"). You cannot redirect costs, either.

We need to know if it keeps the same trigger, because it's considered to be targetting the new target all along.

I don't mean to be rude, but Jeff HAS asked non-rules people to not answer rules questions on here without having direct quotes to rulings and whatnot, so I'd suggest that we all just wait for Jeff to make a ruling.

Thanks Jeff!

Nice avatar btw