[OBH] Does Mitsu interact with Incense Mill? Particularly, if I target Mitsu with Incense Mill and I use his battle ability, will he be considered as 7F?
Sun and Moon #rules-questions
Messages from the Sun and Moon #rules-questions Discord channel, copied for Oracle of the Void. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings and the rulebooks may differ.
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I think that tokens and weapons give a continuos modifiers and bonus/penalties are puntual modifiers. I dont remember well about this
It says current penalties. So I think it will keep negating the penalties from the token until end of turn. Incense mill reads much like Deep roots.
TOKEN # A marker in the game, represented by beads, pieces of paper, or other distinct objects. Tokens may have a keyword, such as Corruption. They may also give a stat bonus or penalty, such as – 1C, to whatever they are on. This bonus or penalty is considered to come from the last effect that placed the token on the card or area.
If you use his ability, token is removed so also a source of his Force penalty. If you use IM while he has any -1F tokens he will ignore those penalties until end of turn.
No. Explained above.
ShE - I Equip The Forgotten. After it enters play, if I trigger putting Ring of the Void into play, can I do so before The Forgotten's created Follower is created?
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Answers on: The Forgotten, Ring of the Void
Yes.
I'm not a huge fan of the wonky wording of Void, but it's basically a "when/now" trigger, which is before an "After" trigger. 🙂
Where you'll have a potential problem is with "Yu" triggers. They trigger before their triggering card leaves play, so if the "Yu" effect is one that creates a replacement for the dying card, it would do so before you could play the Ring. Although, a quick skim of the Oracle shows none exist yet; the two Yu Followers that create when they die make a Personality upon destruction.
[OBH] Would the Shadow Dragon • Experienced 2 cost 20 or 22 ?
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Answers on: Shadow Dragon
It would be 20. There is a homebrewed exception to "out of Clan tax" in the Rules specifically for OBH that Shadowlands Horde players may ignore it if the Personality has "Shadowlands".
[OBH} But it wouldn't be ale to field as he has loyalty to Spider?
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Correct.
[OBH] Uses the battle/open equip correct?
There is no such thing, except specifically for Spells, but that's only in Emperor, not OBH.
[OBH] this was from the twenty festivals rule book (is that ivory book or am I getting it wrong??), this is not in effect??
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its listed as an action phase ability
It is Open, yes, and that's what OBH uses. You put above that it's also Battle, which it's not.
[OBH] Double chi works like its last printing? (diamond I believe)
Yes.
[OBH] I didn't notice it but The Wrath of Kali-Ma was/is banned?
Answers on: The Wrath of Kali-Ma
Not in OBH generally by its current Format-specific Rules, only in Celestial Edition. That said, when Kempy organizes OBH Tournaments here in the Discord, as TO he has the prerogative and will sometimes post additional bans or Rules tweaks as he sees fit, though I don't think a Kali-ma ban has ever been one of those in the past.
[OBH][Legacy] Can you Interrupt Reactions?
I initially replied "yes", but I'm remembering that OBH may have some finicky odd Rules about Reactions, so tentatively "yes", but check those Rules.
for example, I just remembered in OBH, Reactions to engagement are considered Engage actions.
Yeah recon reaction has been treated as engage action… just thinking as some reactions do target stuff and some interrupt can make a target not targetable
there is a reaction that cancels reactions LOL Fall on Your Knees comes to mind LOL
Yeah also can honor cards interrupt reactions that create honor gains and loss? Can reactions that trigger to targeting react to interrupts that targets?
I don't think there's a reaction like that
For specifics can I use arrows from the woods to increase the RA to gosho’s interrupt range attack. Also can I use cards with honor keywords to increase the honor gain from Kikushima’s reaction?
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Yes, you may use AFTW for Ranged Attack part of Gosho's Interrupt. That's just versality of Reactions, they clearly say when they trigger. So as Ranged Attack in 20F is:
"“Ranged X Attack”, where X stands for a number, is shorthand for the text “Target a Follower or a Personality without Followers in the current enemy army. If its Force is equal to or less than X, destroy it.”
AFTW Reaction triggers right after "Target a Follower or a Personality without Followers" part.
"Also can I use cards with honor keywords to increase the honor gain from Kikushima’s reaction?" - IMHO, yes.
[OBH] Does this card have any effect on Shadowlands horde players?
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Yes. Junzo's Army = SLH. Also, see the Oracle text.
so they loose their Right most province pretty much??
Exactly. Although, being SLH and Iris Festival (and this) existing, they tend to run a little heavy on Event-meta.
No but I believe it is errata'd to oni only. Check oracle to be sure
looks at Shadowlands oni deck and smiles Yep yep they nerfed it and made it balanced with that (no they didn't, its likely one of the most broken cards in the game imo and I am saying that as an oni Horde player)
Somethng I have been mulling over in my head, what is there a difference between an Open action and a Battle/open action??
In the older arcs, there we're no "Battle/Open" actions. If it was Battle, it was Battle only, and if it was Open, you could play it during your Limited, during your opponent's Limited, or during a battle, but only if it satisfied presence, etc.
[OBH] Does Fear bow personalities with out followers?
A Fear effect has a numerical strength (example: Fear 4). “Fear X” is shorthand for the effect “Target an enemy Follower or Personality without Followers and bow it if its Force is equal to or lower than X.” Fear effects from cards in the same unit can be combined with each other in the same way as Ranged and Melee attacks can.
[OBH] on celestial road it says bring them into play ignoring costs and restrictions. Is loyal trait a restriction? I can understand for like Kami it ignores the trait part that allows them to only enter a certain way. But why would a keyword like loyal be considered a restriction?
from 20f cr (w/c obh follows)
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I think (not handy to check myself) that you'll also find this corroborated in the Overlaying Rules, where it says you may ignore HR but must obey other restrictions such as Loyal.
[ShE] Let's I am paying for a 4G item with 2 Sapphire Mines. What happens with the 2 remaining gold? I assume both of them are going to produce 3 since I am paying for a single item. Can I decide to use those 2 additional G to pay for the item, so the 2 G remaining belongs to the regular 2 G they produce? It should be something like this: Sapphire a: 2G + 1AG Sapphire b: 2G + 1AG Then I use 1AG + 1AG + 2G to pay for the item, leaving 2G remaining. Do those 2G can be use later in that same phase?
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"When paying for a single Item" means the Gold it produces goes only towards the one Item you are Equipping. Any extra would be lost.
so ideally in the above scenario, you use the additional gold from only one of the two holdings, then have one floating gold from the second holding, which you bowed for its unrestricted 2GP instead of the single-item restricted 3GP
Ok, got it, thanks to you both @Brook Cunningham @Jeff Williamson
does bayishi Darisu reaction is performed
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Answers on: Legion of Pain
I wonder if Legion of Pain blocks him to dishonor the owner of Legion
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Yes
...and thus, indeed it does! 🙂
Format tag please.
[Clan Wars]
Which goes first-- opponent's Sneak Attack or my Bayushi Shoju-inexp ability?
Answers on: Sneak Attack, Bayushi Shoju
Sneak Attack. Per its OE printing, it's played just before the "Battle Action" phase begins, and Shoju's Reaction is before the first action of that phase is played, which is clearly after the phase itself begins, allowing actions to be played.
Note that while you're playing sneak attack before shoju's reaction happens, shoju's reaction will happen before you get to play your first action.
(EE) Her battle action is considered a Void one?
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@Brook Cunningham [EExt]
Can Mahatsu stop "printed elemental actions" on shugenja (if they have the elemental keyword)
Mahatsu can use his limited to grab [Ring of Void], which has the void trait, does EExt use "actions that come from a elemental trait, giving its elemental keyword" (Void Battle:) (Void Open:)?
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Yes and he can grab any card with an elemental trait including rings
what about his reaction vs [Asako Kaitoko]?
Yes he can stop it
Remember his reaction and limited action is still once per turn
yeah, i remember asking this question on the AEG fourms in EE 😄 😄
In other words there are ways to get around that
a player Since one of you asked me specifically, I'll confirm a player is correct. 🙂
[ShE] Hi, just a couple of questions that came up in a game today: Can I use my own bowed duelist to challenge with Cross Blades? I think yes but need to check as my opponent didn't think it worked like that. Also, if I challenge and my opponent focuses brutal lesson, does this increase all focus values for all focused cards to the force of the personality? I think no but also my opponent had a different interpretation so just checking.
Answers on: Cross Blades, Brutal Lesson
1. Yes. If it required either target to be unbowed, it would say so explicitly.
2. No, it does not. It makes each card Focused for both Personalities have a maximum value equal to their Force. So, for example, if your Personality is 3F, if you Focus a printed "2" for him, it is just a 2, but if it gets a bonus of +2 from some other source, the maximum caps it off at 3, being equal to his Force. Likewise, if you Focus a printed "4" for him, even with no other modifications, the maximum would cap it at a value of "3" also.
So there's no rule in the book that says personalities have to be unbowed to challenge?
By default, no. It depends on the wording of the action being used
Used to be, but it was removed in SE/CE, somewhere around there.
Additionally, Cross Blades was intentionally designed that way so that you could still gain the Honor by "trying again" with the same Personality even if they lost the first time they tried to use it.
That is just bad if you are going to duel you duel to win the first not loose the first then win the second
[ShE] Shao copies another of my personalities and gains a force bonus. But that personality dies in battle, does Shao's bonus also "switch off" at this point or does it continue?
As long as the initial bonus's specified duration wasn't "until the Personality dies/leaves play", then it continues on both the dead Personality and Shao for its duration.
(ShE) Is he Earth or not?
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No
If you put an earth spell the spell still earth Ajinai still a none earth shugie
I see, thanks
It’s very rare that an attachment gives traits
I know, but in one of the previous images of the card, it had the Earth Keyword
Really? Do you have a previous image for reference?
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Probably better for the ShE/Onyx chats, but...
@Jeremy Sumerlin @Jeff Williamson. Was it lost in translation when the image was removed, or intentional?
That is a good question because that image is not in SnM data base
The card is there not the image
It's an image from before they decided to remove all AI ilustrations
Ha. I just messaged them this myself in that channel.
Looks like the icon was accidentally left off
It will be corrected, thanks for bringing this to our attention
[ShE] Does Okui have to be attached to a shugenja? It says it is considered a spell, but does that mean it has the restrictions of a spell? My understanding is it can, but I could read it as you can't. Related, Yumi of the Void seems formatted in such a way that it is both, and thus can only go on Shugenja. But the different formatting may just be them getting fancy with the Yumi.
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Answers on: Okui, Yumi of the Void
Yes, Okui can only attach to a Shugenja because it's considered a Spell, carrying that same attachment restriction.
And yes, the Yumi is just a bit of a fancy throwback to the Inazuma Blade. 🙂
ShE Rules: Consumed by darkness, and dangei, can I recruit for 1 less? or because its an action I cant?
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Answers on: Consumed by Darkness
Please tag your questions
You can, as long as they have a Clan Alignment that isn't yours.
[she]
Since the [consumed] target isn't "yours" does one need to meet HRs to recruit?
Yes.
Not if you run the spider sensei lol
[lotus] Referring to Rosoku Sensei. What exactly does the word unconditionally mean. What qualifies as a condition to where I could still put a card in my hand. For example. During the open phase I meeting the keepers and draw. But then during battle I wanna play some combination of the "strike the" monk combo. But these cards search for each other as long as you pay the required costs to do so. Are these "conditions"?
Answers on: Rosoku Sensei, Meeting the Keepers
Could you please check to see if the contemporary errata also removed "unconditionally" and not just the Oracle text? If it did, your question is moot.
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Despite your username, this is unhelpful, but thank you nonetheless. 🙂
For obh, do enlightened persobalities gain +1 for each ring? Or just the ability to straighten a ring?
Idk, it says errata'd 2006, which helpfully answers the question of a contemporary errata or not.
Yes, but the exact text of the contemporary errata may have been further altered by Oracle-ization, which is why I directed a player to check the contemporary errata itself for whether it specifically removed "unconditionally" or not (which I'm sure Kempy has in the Dropbox).
Enlightened keyword works as in Lotus. Same for Yu and Ninjutsu.
Oh I see. I did read the oracle text but overlooked that errata date. I'm not sure where I check for a contemporary errata. But thank you for pointing that out. @kempy_nezumi can you weigh in on this?
2006 FAQ document
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Also link in document links to AEG forum topic
That's missing.
Yay! a player So "unconditionally" was removed contemporarily. 🙂 Woo-hoo, question moot!
Oh duh. It's each phase also. Oops.
Apparently consumed by darkness is now shadowlands
which it was not originally
but let just say it straight... stealing someone body is kinda shadowlands ;p
I don't disagree that it thematically makes sense
but there was no errata update that I saw
someone just told me lol
lol soo that is strange... dont wanna say it out loud (but will) .. it also feels kinda shadowlands
I've asked Design if the changes to Consumed were intentional or possibly mistakes made when converting its text to icons.
I can see it definitely being intentional, I always felt it was a shadowlands card, despite ita lack of the keyword... haha
[ShE] Attaching a spell targets the personality? I want to know if I can attach a spell to a shugenja who already has that armor attached
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ShE - Can this bow to pay for it's own ability?
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yes
since the action does not bow the holding
The Equip action targets the Shugenja, but it is not "from" the Spell, it's from the Rulebook.
So, I should be able to attach the spell, right? Follow up question: will the Shugenja be able to cast the spells, given the spells don't explicitly target the shugenja?
1. Yes, the armor only prohibits being targeted by actions "from" Spells.
2. Some do though, so it depends on the Spell's text.
Thanks a lot, man
[ShE] If I use Forgotten Mine's open to transfer a spell from a shugenja to Moto Chikyu, it is considered that the action is equipping the spell or not? Would I be able to use Chikyu's response to it?
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Answers on: Moto Chikyu
No. Equip =/= transfer or attach.
Ok, got it, thanks!
[Onyx/ShE] Can I redirect in battle an action from my opponent stronghold to one of my personalities instead? ior it implies that it needs to be his target
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my guess that in Engage, I could not use it but in Battle its just any personality not his
As long as it is a battle action and your personality you are redirecting is unbowed yes you can
One more thing the peep with the spell has to be in the battle
Follow up question: the new target has to be in the current battlefield or not?
The original action says the target can be at any location. However, note that the Stronghold's player gets to choose either or neither of the "you may" effects.
Yes wat was my main goal there too i want to know how affecting is word "Your" personality/card/stuff
what would happen in engage segment?
Another follow up question: if I take the action as engage, the new target should be cavalry, right?
yes, and unit al all the cards need to have keyword
Well, if you take it as a Battle action, that expands the legal targets to "any", whether you wanted it to or not. 😛
yes thatg is true
Now hold on.
but I if in Engage, so probing of implication "yours" this would be illegal?
@Brook Cunningham So, in engage the new target's entire unit should be cavalry, right?
If it's taken as an Engage, Tides can't redirect it at all.
At all? Why?
thanks so that is info I wanted to get and it goes with my understanding
Your!
not his 😛
The spell says instead of another card
Nimuro is correct.
he could redirect tho to one of Yours cards then.. possibly?
Not instead of another of your cards
"If legal".
As an Engage, the action's only legal target is the Stronghold's owner's own Personalities.
Got it, thanks!!
[Onyx/ShE] Can actions from Rings target personality wearing [Ketsuen]?
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in my understanding they can cause actions are without keyword, but I am not sure
Your understanding is incorrect. The element icon on any card conveys that element keyword to its actions. So, no, Ring actions cannot target that Personality.
Yeah tbh I feared just that, and the statement above was dictated by my hopes ;p
[ShE]: When Wataru Sensei sets the Force of a Personality to X, does that overwrite (nullify) existing debuffs ?
Answers on: Wataru Sensei
debuffs meaning penalties
as personally is printed 3 +2 (weapon) with penalty of -6
and I now use Wateru do set her force to another personality with force of 3
To set a stat to a value, you give it a new bonus or penalty such that its current value will equal the new value.
So, as an example if you have a Personality with 2F printed and a +2F weapon, to set its Force to 3, you would give it a -1F penalty. If that same Personality also had a +2F bonus from an effect, the "set to 3F" effect would instead give a -3F penalty.
okay my opponent is kind of unsure
so I will make it step by step
I have personality with force 3 and +2 on weapon with penalty of -6 so she have 0 current force
with stil -1 onm her
and using sensei to set force to 3 I am giving her a needen 4F bonus so she is now 3 yes?
Ok, a printed 3F Personality with a +2F weapon and a current -6F penalty is having their Force set to 3. So, yes, the "set" effect would then give them a +4F bonus such that their current Force will now = 3 (3 printed + 2 weapon -6 existing penalty + 4 set effect = 3).
thanks
[Onyx/ShE]I've got more questions.
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and it will be about this situations
seec
I'll try to follow, but use a lot of words, those pics are small on my phone.
Its about Togashi Noboru trait and Sandayu battle action
Answers on: Sandayu
Togashi Noboru
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Sandayu
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Sandayu's straightening is a trait, not an action. It cannot straighten a Monk.
and that is duty I awas thinking aboput action sorry lets not digress
I meant how I do count attacking monks, and do that changes chen the battelfields are resolved
or thour monks arr only counting on a specyfic battlefield
Oooh, Sandayu's ability!
want to resolve battles from left to right, so will Noboru trait boomp upthe number of Rings for Sandayu ability?
Answers on: Sandayu
and how many rings will I have on 2nd battlefield with Noboru
When his action is counting "Rings you control" it will also count all "attacking Monk Personalities you control". So, as long as you control them, they are attacking, and Monks and Personalities, they count. Doesn't matter which battlefield they're at as long as they haven't gone home (because they're no longer attacking if they're not in an attacking army).
so they "stay" at the battlefield after resolution till end of turn?
Attackers don't, no. They go home after Resolution. Defenders stay until end of turn.
ok so that means Sandayu gets full bonuis while Noboru ring count is -4 comparing to what Sandayu got
Answers on: Sandayu
in an example I posted
cause they are all monks that are attacking
It's too small for me to read which of those guys are Monks, but do Sandayu's battle first or else some of the other guys will not be attacking anymore.
all are monks
but thanks that answers my question thanks
Cool! Looks like a Melee 9 if everyone is a Monk, you did that battle first, and have no actual Rings, but glad to have helped. EDIT: Er, 8? Can't tell if that's a Weapon on Sandy.
there is Togashi Daisho and Heart of Shinsei also in play
[open] if you do not have a clan alignment and you play Oath of fealty. Do personalities with and without clan alignments still get the +1F/+1c token? Do personalities with clan alignments lose the clan alignments?
Answers on: Oath of Fealty
Back in the day, the Factions which had no Clan alignment couldn't play Oath of Fealty, such as Yogo Junzo's Army/Shadowlands Horde.
Stronghold restriction saying that your Personalities may not swear fealty.
Yeah, but that's only a very Imperial way of looking at it to say they had no "Clan Alignment", as the shift came swiftly to "Clan" being synonymous with "Faction", and the clause wasn't reminder but a strict prohibition against using such effects. But anyway, talking Open/Legacy....
...per the MRP of Oath of Fealty and the 20F Rules, yes, I see no reason that playing the card out of a Stronghold with truly no Clan Alignment (Maw's Grave, Sunrise Keep, etc) wouldn't work as you say. Personalities without your Clan Alignment (that they couldn't ever have because you don't have one either) all lose their own and gain +1/+1 tokens.
Really funny wording when reworked for ivory. And then used in formats where are factions with no clan alignments.
Thanks
Post-Ivory design didn't really take much Legacy into account as it really wasn't being officially supported as a Format anymore. I mean, I tried when I could to make sure newer cards didn't clash destructively with Legacy, but it was a "pick your battles" sort of situation.
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Look at me, being consistent. 🙂 Thanks, @kempy_nezumi.
Long live the Kempy Hidden Cache of Treasures!
Yeah, take additonal note from 11-years-younger me that it also de-Ninjas, de-Spirits, de-Monks, de-etc.'s the people you play it on if not playing those Factions. 😛
So….. you could stack oath of fealty? Keep giving them +1F/+1C tokens?
Answers on: Oath of Fealty
I read thge pic more like it the card should be banned but that maybe is just me 😛
Yep. They didn't gain your CA from the last OoF since you don't have one, so they'll still be affected by later ones.
I did say that. No one did it. 😛
Also it works for Personalities that are in play only when it's played.
[Legacy][OBH]Would that sensei be used on a SH with no clan alignment?
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Yes.
But as it's another question, tag it with [Legacy] or [Open] etc
I assume your question is unrelated to your previous question? 😉
Oh yeah thanks. My bad
P.S. I'm asking tongue in cheek, wondering if you read the last trait on the Sensei.
Oh crap. My bad again
Damn
;D
Hmmm…. Guess gonna go look for ways to make no alignment with alignment breeder work
I Have a headache and can't think right now... ShE - Are traits abilities? So like... the deathseeker sensei turns off stronghold abilities... does the trait that gives my lion clan peeps +1F while attacking stay or turn off?
Abilities are only things preceded by a designator such as Battle, Open, Interrupt, Response.
Question for ivory/twenty with Kobi Sensei. Does she gains a token, when the oponent have no personalities en play? @Brook Cunningham can you help?
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Yes
The Conspiracy waits for no one
This is true
Under ivory/twenty. If I straighten a holding that has already produce gold, can it bow again to produce gold?
Yes.
What’s up?
Isn’t gold production an action in ivory/20f?
No. Actions are only things preceded by designators like Battle, Open, etc. Few (if any?) Ivory 20F Holdings produce Gold via action; most do via their GP stat or a trait.
Thanks Brook
There is a deck list with this sensei?
[Diamond][Lotus][Open] Can somebody explain this guy’s ability. Since I did play during those arcs I am kinda confused. What are events that stay in play when they resolve?
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For example that event
From an Open perspective, he's really good with Ivory+ Events, as many put themselves into play and have a further from-play ability, but there's Efirm above with a good contemporary example.
Hmmm… if it only copies the abilities and not the traits. What would be the interaction with this?
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Nothin.
even not ndestroying Your own rightmost province as a cost?
Well, except you could nuke your own Province, I guess. 😛
🤣
wouldn't a self-reference in a copied action change the reference to the card copied to, which would be why it nukes your own province to no effect if you did do that?
I admit, I may be misremembering how many Ivory 20F Events go into play and then have a from-play ability. I guess a good portion are like that, which go into play and then have a continuous trait. Otherwise, they just have a use-from-Province ability.
Correct.
Well looks like abdication is the only one with an upside it can use from the ivory+ events. Still not sure about how interact with marriage to the emerald champion
Answers on: Emerald Champion
Ah, that's a bit of an odd one, but I would say Kobai could copy and use the ability of Marriage. Just note that its final effect would then discard Kobai.
Edit: Same thing with Abdication; copying and using its ability would cause Kobai to discard himself.
So, again, apologies for thinking that there were "put into play, then use secondary ability" Events in Ivory 20F. That actually may be more of an Onyx+ design thing, and I was conflating the two environs.
[Open] Just asking if this would work. If I remove a personalities ability with VTD(until end of turn) and then use Flame and Lightning and lost the duel. Would the ability removed by VTD return at the end of turn?
Answers on: Flame and Lightning
Yeah, that seems it would be the case. If the ability is removed until end of turn, it's not around at the time to be affected by all abilities being removed permanently, so it would return at end of turn.
And Flame and Lightning removes the traits that says “this xxx abilities can not be copied” right? For example Y. Sachina exp, Shadow dragon exp2, M. Nimuro exp2, A. Usohara
Answers on: Flame and Lightning, Shadow Dragon
I only checked Nimuro and trusted you on the others, but yes.
Ohhh… so in the case above Ninja Shapeshifter can keep copying the abilities take control of multiple personalities(in the case of shadow dragon and sachina) and breed multiple false ninja nimuro’s in the case with Nimuro
Answers on: Ninja Shapeshifter, Shadow Dragon
Lol, c c c combo! The trick is losing the F&L duel; better hope they table a guy with 5 or more Chi. 😛
ShE Rule - Combining... if I have an engage fear, and a battle fear... they cannot combine because they don't have the same phase... right? Or does combining override that?
same phase keyword, yes, so only battle with battle, only engage with engage
Same reason you can't stack those Fears with an Open Fear like the one on Terrible Standard of Fu Leng - exp (If I recall the right card name)
I'll need a sec to see if I can't find it in the CR
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20F CR, page 59, paragraph 3 of Combining, line 2-3: "that is approrpiate to the phase"
at least as I'm understanding the text
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well, misunderstandings can happen
(forgot that the rules differentiate between phases and, as I've checked after that post, segments)
Soooo... consensus?
so that makes things like Yamigatai also starting take its effect on Engage?
cause in the end it is engage so You are being opposed just right now
or the combat segment wording do sth else?
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either way I feel it is inconsistent xD
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Attack types can combine if the actions are in the same phase, so an Engage Fear can combine with a Battle Fear, but not combine with an Open Fear
I think Kempy stated it clear enought
[OBH] question: If I have an event resolving, and another player plays Forewarning, to discard it, am I allowed to play Avoid Fate to shuffle it back into my deck instead?
format tag please
Yes. But It's important that with current Oracle wording this shuffling happens in different moment:
1) in AEG Legacy as Events resolve at beginning of Action Phase, next Phase is Battle one (if started) or Dynasty 2) In OBH Events Phase exists, so its shuffled in before Action Phase.
It's just example why pointing specific format/edition is important. Legacy - what Legacy?
Fair enough. My meaning was for the upcoming tournament. I'll fix the tag.
For my purposes though, either way would be fine. I just need to know that I can rescue an event from getting negated.
[OBH] Though, I do wonder how that would interact with Defining the Essence. Does Defining the Essence still prevent it from resolving even if it's shuffled into its owners deck?
It's important because I'm considering a deck that uses an event for its win condition, and I just want to make sure my game plan isn't nuked by someone happening to have some kind of silver bullet effect like this.
[attachment: printing_1936_1_details.png]
"For my purposes though, either way would be fine. I just need to know that I can rescue an event from getting negated."
alright. And for Defining the Essence, presumably, the event would still be shuffled in, but events with that name would still be negated from triggering?
Ok, i messed up something.
Forewarning -> "Before an Event's triggered trait or ability resolves, negate its effects." Avoid Fate: -> "Before the triggered trait of an Event in a Province resolves, the trait does not resolve."
Event is refilled face up and going to resolve. Your opponent play Forewarning. You may play at this point also Avoid Fate as it's same trigger. As active player you choose order of Reactions.
If you choose Avoid Fate, Event's trait doesnt resolve, so Forewarning effect will fail.
oh interesting. So, by that logic, Defining the Essence wouldn't resolve either, because its triggering effect would be negated.
does that mean they get to keep their Defining the Essence, (or Forewarning)? Because the trigger that allowed them to play it no longer exists?
Or does their card still get spent?
Definig the Essence Reaction has two effects. First won't work, but second "Until the game ends, copies of that Event will not resolve" will.
even though the effect that allows them to play the card in the first place no longer exists?
That's how i read this. Let's wait for @Brook Cunningham
alright. I'm mostly just trying to work out how much protection I need to run, and just how possible it is to prevent an alternate win condition event from triggering.
[ShE] I have a ring of void in hand, but then I play Machinations and discard it another one, do I have a "split second" to react with the ring of voids trait to put it into play since its trait and not a reaction before drawing the two cards from machinations or do I have to draw the two before? (assuming I had the right number of cards in play for ring of void to come in when I have "two less" from machinations
Answers on: Machinations, Pierce the Spirit
[ShE] Pierce the spirit, I am a mantis player. I dont see anything about needing to "play" the card to get it to my hand from the discard pile, can I just discard it to kharmic, and then banish another card to get it back at the end of my turn, essentially turning all my cards into 'psuedo' kharmic?
[legacy] if playing a shadowlands strognhold like obsidian halls of the lost for example. do you pay the extra 2g for a clan personality like asako kinuye for example.
that's specifically for OBH Legacy I assume?
I think it might be different from the AEG Legacy rules
Figured I'd look it up and see if this is just answered in the rules documents. This is mostly seeming to say that as a Shadowlands Horde player, you wouldn't pay extra for anyone. But it also explicitly calls out that a Shadowlands Horde player doesn't pay 2 extra for personalities with other clan alignments if they have the Shadowlands keyword.
And Shadowlands is explicitly not a clan alignment. So... does that mean it's unaligned?
[attachment: image.png]
In OBH Asako Kinuye (basic) costs 8 Gold for Shadowlands Horde because she has Shadowlands keyword.
and what about this non-Shadowlands guy?
[attachment: printing_3899_1_details.png]
Been asked before, since it comes into play via the trait, it's not bound by regular timing restrictions, so after you play Machinations and discard 1, before you draw 2, RotV can be put into play by its trait
In OBH he costs 12G for Shadowlands Horde player.
Thanks
That being said, I could see the argument otherwise, saying that Shadowlands is not a Faction, therefore Shadowlands Horde players would count as Unaligned, and therefore, would not pay extra for any personalities, as per rule 5b on this section.
I just want to make sure this doesn't come up later and cause more confusion.
It's probably overlooked in document. Asked a player about this one.
Thanks again!
This is basically the question of whether the deck idea I have would be better to run as a Shadowlands Horde deck, or a Clan deck.
I'm already leaning toward Clan, but the Shadowlands strongholds do seem to be a bit better at control.
It's not overlooked by OBH Rules? They specifically include all the special Faction Rules for SLH (4a above), as well as homebrewing a specific exemption to out-of-Clan tax for Clan Aligned Personalities who have the Shadowlands keyword (4b). SLH is a Faction, and their boxes are not Unaligned by 5b.
Okay, I was reading 4a and 4b, and thinking that said "Shadowlands is not a Clan Alignment", but it actually says, "The Shadowlands Keyword is not a Clan Alignment" and that's a very different thing.
That being said, why doesn't "The Shadowlands Horde" show up in list of Factions, if Shadowlands is a Faction? The keyword on personalities may not be a faction, but the Stronghold is.
Answers on: The Shadowlands Horde
eh... I know that's not a question that can reasonably be answered, sorry for asking it.
Because the Oracle was made post Samurai Edition when they weren't a Faction any longer in the current environment. As I understand , it was a big pain to add the sort feature for "defunct" Factions, and prohibitive/potentially confusing to put it a special new field just for the few SLH boxes.
fair enough
And it's only useful for people who are interested in legacy formats.
Though, that does then lead to confusion when Oracle is just about the only searchable database.
pretty sure all the other search engines are technically just stores.
well, I think the best that I could hope for is some clarification that Shadowlands strongholds do not count as Unaligned.
or that the clause referencing Unaligned factions only applies to non-Shadowlands unaligned factions.
Actually... hold on... ok, I suppose I could lobby Don to add Horde to the name for clarity, but my mistake, you can pick "Shadowlands" in Oracle as a "Clan" sort, and it will pull only the boxes, as it should (and Ancestors, but that does make a fun sort of sense).
So, if I wanted to play exclusively Shadowlands Personalities from a variety of clans, playing a Shadowlands stronghold would make sense.
But if I wanted to play exclusively a single clan's personalities, or one clan plus a few unaligned personalities, it makes more sense to play that clan.
just from a cost of personalities perspective.
there are of course, many other reasons to pick one box over another.
While they have the special Rule that they have no corresponding keyword that Personalities can ever have or be given, I don't think it could be any clearer that they are a Faction and their Strongholds are not Unaligned; their have a mon on them, there are cards that specifically say, "If you are a Shadowlands Horde player", etc. Yes, unfortunately, Ivory+ out of Clan tax doesn't take them into account and hampers them, but hence the OBH homebrew Rule.
Yes, that's correct.
Kempy has it slightly wrong, but mostly correct. You can "save" your Forewarned Event by Avoid Fating it, but you don't choose the order of the Reactions' effects after the fact, they happen as you play them, therefore Avoid Fate immediately makes the trait no longer resolve, thereby taking away the trigger so that Defining the Essence cannot be played at all after it.
So what's the order? Event is face up and my op announces Forewarning. May i just announce Avoid Fate at same time but after his announcement? And what happens with Forewarning?
Reactions go in a round like actions, so after Forewarning is played and resolves (setting up an effect that will negate the Event effects when they try to happen), the other player can then React to the same trigger with Avoid Fate which resolves and takes away the trigger for later Reactions. Forewarning was already played and its negation effect does nothing because there are no longer any effects to negate.
So what's if you replace Forewarning with Essence, especially what happens with second effect? And costs (bowing Shugenja)?
If Essence is played first, everything happens (all its costs and effects resolve) then Avoid Fate. The negation effect tries to negate something no longer there and fizzles, but the Shugenja was already bowed and the until end of game effect persists. So, not much point in Avoid Fating after Essence.
Okay. So if that's gonna be a problem, my best bet is gonna be some kind of kiho cancel effect.
@Brook Cunningham I believe this question and the next one were omitted and I am also interested to see the answer. Thanks a lot in advance
This is the other one
Kakita Marcus answered that one at 222am above...
...and I answered that one at 534am above.
You're right, I completely missed both messages. Thanks!!
[Imperial] How do you properly play this? Love the flavorful design of this card
[attachment: printing_948_1_details.png]
It's rather cumbersome and clunky to use and not really worth the effect, but it is clearly the first prototype form of what would later be the Ninjutsu mechanic.
For somewhat clearer instructions on how to use it, maybe check out its Oracle text?
[OBH] Can Yoritomo Hanayo be discarded if there is no Orochi in another province?
[attachment: printing_9554_1_select.png]
I want to say no because of required targeting rules (action taken that targets requires a legal target present), but I'm not sure
If we use the text in Oracle you need an Orochi. Limited: If Hanayo is face-up in your province, discard him and target a face-up Orochi in another province: Give it -2 Gold Cost until it is paid or the turn ends.
this would be it
you can still discard Hanayo before the Dynasty Phase ends, but not with the card's limited action
[OBH] Is A Casual Stroll legal? Or is that one of those unreleased promo's?
[attachment: printing_10197_1_select.png]
Answers on: A Casual Stroll
Unreleased one. Illegal
[Imperial]
Does the honor loss occur in separate packets if multiple Shadowlands are in play?
[attachment: printing_1886_2_details.png]
Answers on: Imperial Funeral
I assume it's the same as Imperial Funeral having separate packets of honor loss/gain (as per accumulated rulings 1998)
Hrm. I would say maybe not? Since they had to make a specific ruling just for Imperial Funeral to clarify it? By the by, thanks for pointing that out, as maybe I will have to re-Oracle IF to account for that ruling, because more modern Rules clearly define an "X for each Y" effect as a single occurrence of X*Y, not separate effects. Although, I will have to see if that ruling persists in FAQs more concurrent to its last printing. Or maybe I just won't because it's kind of weirdly inconsistent. Classic Rulings were unfortunately a lot of, "this is what we meant but this is not what the card actually says" without official hard errata to back that up. 😦
Not sure if this changes anything, but in the 2000 version of the rulings, Imperial Funeral didn't change
Answers on: Imperial Funeral
I edited a little more onto the end of my last post for context. 😉
Thanks. So it's one big honor loss for Dealing With Shadows, right? For Imperial.
It is a deal breaker if I will include it in playtest.
Well, it's really difficult to pin down a Ruling contemporary to Imperial, but my best guess is "yes", for the reason I stated above, that IF has a special Ruling but DwS doesn't.
Makes sense. Thanks
[OBH] Scenario: My opponent has a dishonored Sezaru with a fear ability granted by a spell. I target Sezaru with Writ of Command and assign him to my attacking army. Can Sezaru's owner trigger his fear ability to target one of my attacking personalities in the same army? Fear ability as templated states" Bow a target enemy Follower or Personality with X or lower Force." We assumed Sezaru could. Seeking confirmation.
Answers on: Writ of Command
Correct. Since "enemy" has supplanted "opposing" terminology, cards in the same army as Sezaru in your described scenario are still "enemy" targets, per the definition of "enemy" and the fact Sezaru's controller still controls him, even though you did the Assigning.
thanks!
[OBH]With The Death of Tsuko, if there is only one player with a unique personality in game, does the personality die ?
Answers on: The Death of Tsuko
Yes.
Also, for the future, the moderator prefers you start Rules questions with "[XXX]" to indicate the Format for which you're asking.
Thx, fixed
[ShE] does this box utilizes only straighten Rings? or any Rings in play even if bowed? just for clarification.
[attachment: image.png]
If the Ring is in play, it would need to be straightened. The SH ignores the bow cost, but does not grant the Ring Tireless
If you use the SH and it's straightened, since it doesn't have repeatable it couldn't be used again in the same turn
most of the Rings do have repeatable though. So, you can use the stronghold to use the Ring without bowing, and then use the ring itself.
This does not work with the Ring of the Void.
(but you can then use it on your opponent's turn)
Ijust wanted to get word from @Brook Cunningham I already know what do You think Technogashi. and Andra I do now that i san do first box then ring but it takes of flexibility so I'd like to get sure answer 🙂
And I have another
[ShE] If a ranged attack is announced against someone printed force, it ignores bonuses, but what with for example armors and weapons? it does also ignore attached items?
Techno is very correct.
Printed means printed on the target. Neither bonuses nor Item +X modifiers will count.
xD thanks
[OBH] the legal elemental rings are the ones printed on twenty festivals?
Correct. OBH uses MRP, but does not include the digital fan-released sets after Evil Portents.