Perhaps there is something in La Voz Akasha Forum I will try to find something
Sun and Moon #rules-questions
Messages from the Sun and Moon #rules-questions Discord channel, copied for Oracle of the Void. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings and the rulebooks may differ.
Kolat Informant article above coupled with no mention on EomE or CoB rulesheets seems to narrow it down to either a very late DE errata or the LE MRP.
If errata isn't mentioned even in CoB rulesheet that was probably sent to printer at June/July 2005 (and includes errata for EoME cards, released in April 2005) so that was narrow period of time for such errata as base Lotus was released in October 2005. If something like this happened it should be done before GenCon i believe to have any impact.
Web Archive of L5R.com is lacking entries between 08.2005 and 01.2006, but even 01.2006 have errata of some cards from bridge expansions (including Saori or Kholl Wall). So i believe there no errata was issued until Lotus reprint MRP. https://web.archive.org/web/20060101163316/http://www.legendofthefiverings.com:80/ccg/rules.html
[ShE] The yojimbo must be in the same battlefield, right?
[attachment: 001.jpg]
Yes. Rule of Location.
If you choose to discard the Favor or do neither, though, you don't need a Yojimbo at all.
[ShE] In this case: 1) Instead of losing 1 honor I can choose to bow the courtier or the merchant to make a player lose or gain 2 honor, right? 2) The courtier or merchant must be in the same battlefield, right?
[attachment: 002.jpg]
Got it, thanks!
1. Yes.
2. They'll be at home. This is an Open, not a Battle.
Right, right, I completely missed that it was an open! Wow, that changes everything!!!! THANKS!
[ShE] If the courtier I target is dishonored, insetad of gaining the hoor, the courtier rehonors, right?
[attachment: 001.jpg]
[ShE] If I have the three copies of this holding in play, my lobby bonus would be +15, right?
[attachment: 002.jpg]
If you chose for the final effect to be a gain with yourself as the target, yes.
Yes.
Thanks a lot!
[EE] I have some doubts about bonuses and penalties order of application. Here's an example. if a personality has 4F, then equips a +2F item, and a trait on the card text also grants it +4F while attacking, what happens if he becomes the target of a spell that "sets his force to 0"? and what if he is targeted by an effect that switches his F and C?
4F + 2F + 4F = current Force during attacking is 10F
Spell played during battle sets his Force to 0 so he gains -10F penalty until end of turn
So he has 0F. If you play an effect that switches F with C, he dies becasue of 0C.
More broadly, effects that "set a stat to [specific value X]" or "switch stats" work the same way. A new bonus or penalty is applied so that the current value of the stat becomes the new value.
As Kempy noted, if your example Personality is hit by your example Spell during battle, he would get a -10F penalty from it; if he were hit with the same Spell as an Open, he would get a -6F penalty, and that would be it; he would get his +4F if attacking later and then be 4F total (4 printed +2 item -6 open "set to 0" spell +4 while attacking).
Switching stats simply does the same thing; it sets two values to equal each other. If your example guy gets hit with your example Spell during battle (let's say his Chi is 3) so he is 0F/3C, then gets hit with an effect that switches those stats, he gets a +3F bonus to get his Force to equal his Chi (4 printed +2 item +4 while attacking -10 battle spell setting him to zero +3 from switch), and a simultaneous -3C penalty to get his Chi equal to his Force (3 printed -3 from switch).
All make sense?
makes sense, yes, thanks to both
a bonus/penalty is "generated" so that it sets the stat to the specified value.
and that bonus/penalty remains later, so even if Force was set to zero, in can be increased later by a new bonus. I think I got it.
[OBH] i need some clarification for serpent tunnels. it says target MY personality at any location. i may destroy a warrior to target two guys at any location instead. my question is can i target enemy personalities to harpoon them in?
Answers on: Serpent Tunnels
Yes you can harpoon
It doesn't specify that it has to be your personalities that move in
Also, in a fair bit of irony, the Naga Enemy deck Siege cards do not expect that there are any cards with "Warrior" besides yours, so it also doesn't specify "your" Warrior; in OBH it can be anyone's Warrior. EDIT: Whoops! I said something after this that was a lie because I didn't read properly; removed.
https://images.oracleofthevoid.com/l5r/59/77/printing_10473_1_details.jpg [EE] Can I still target her with strategies or actions from stronghold using a dishonored personality? Just to clear a doubt.
If it is only dishonored, you should be able to do it... Now, if the personality has shadowlands, or kolat, etc, and is the performer for the stronghold or a strategy action, could Kaitoko be targeted in that scenario?
"actions from cards in their units" - Stronghold and Strategies aren't "cards in units"
EE CR:
From Some things check to see if costs, effects, actions, targeting, or other game procedures come “from” a given source. The source is the card that the effect, action or targeting is printed on, or the rulebook if it is printed there. There are three exceptions:
- Targeting and destruction by Ranged Attacks come from the card that created the Ranged Attack, not the rulebook. - A Personality’s destruction for having 0 Chi comes from the cost or effect that last gave the Personality a Chi penalty, or from the rulebook if there was no such cost or effect. - Costs and effects of traits and abilities given to other cards, copied from other cards, or on created cards, come from the card they are currently on. - The source of tokens’ effects is the card or other source that created them.
Effects "from" battle resolution, such as destruction or Honor gain, refer only to the rulebook effects of battle resolution.
[EE] Akodo Ashiko. What is the cost I have to pay for the battle action? Could I pay two less gold to avoid proclaim action, or be forced to pay two more gold if my family honor was below its requirement? Thanks
EE CR
Clan alignment and entering play Each time a player brings into play a Personality aligned to his Clan, unless the Personality is being created, that player has options to modify the Gold cost paid for bringing the Personality into play.
- He or she may increase the Gold cost to play the Personality by 2. If he does so, he may ignore the Personality's Honor Requirement to bring him into play. This is known as buying with "Clan allegiance." - He or she may reduce the Gold cost to play the Personality by 2. This is known as buying with "Clan discount.” A player may choose either, neither, or both of these options. Example: When ignoring a Clan-aligned Personality’s Honor Requirement, a player may pay both the Personality’s increased Gold cost and Clan discount, ending up paying the normal cost (plus two then minus two) to have him or her enter play.
Buying with Clan discount or Clan allegiance does not reduce or increase the Gold Cost stat of the Personality for the rest of the turn, because it is a change in payment and not in the Gold Cost stat.
So in Emperor if you buy her during battle as a Lion clan player with more than 0 Family Honor, you may pay 6G (clan discount) while unopposed or even for 4GC if there are more units on op side.
[attachment: printing_193_1_details.png]
Thanks for such a detailed explanation
[EE] Isawa Momoko. Ignoring the action bowing costs would also include a spell action that begins by "bow this sughenja:", not just the bowing of the spell, correct?
Answers on: Isawa Momoko
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Yes; in EE, things presented between the first and second colon of an action that were not targeting or restrictions were costs.
(still EE) does "bring into play" allow her to be played even if the player has no presence on the battlefield?
answering myself, from comprehensive rules: "A player who controls no units at the current battlefield may take a Battle action whose costs or effects say they are able to move, create, or bring into play one or more of his units there. "
^not sure what reference that is exactly in the EE CR, but it's pg. 79 of the printed Rulebook. 😛
(I like using those; my name's on page 2. ;D)
Question for Ambush under Lotus Rules. When the units are assigned to that battlefield. does that create an army? from the glosary of lotus, this is what it says about an army (See screenshot), also on one other part I was able to find something similar which mention a defending province. The question comes if Moshi Sake can activate her ability during an ambush, as I cannot find an ambush creates an army.
[attachment: printing_344_8_details.png] [attachment: image.png] [attachment: printing_5278_1_details.png]
The way Ambush is written yes because Ambush creates a battlefield
well, not really. If you see ambush it says a battlefield NOT associated with any province. and from the rulebook it says: army: Any number of units either attacking or defending a Province.
thats my confusion
is worded that way so you can't do stuff like that let's you move around battlefields
like Broad Front
Yes, the units assigned to an Ambush are "armies". The Rulebook definition of "army" is assumptive of the normal situation, but consider the fact that Ambush doesn't function at all if they're not? If there are no armies at the Ambush, how do you "compare Force totals of the armies" (LE Rulebook pg. 52) in Resolution?
@Brook Cunningham Can you use the Dragon Stronghold on a bowed ring?
Answers on: Ring of Air
Let's say the Ring of Air
I'm pretty sure no, as Ring of Air is not Tireless
Don't have the SH text handy, sorry; on phone.
Tireless Battle/Interrupt: Take an additional Battle or Interrupt, whichever this action was taken as, from your target Ring in play or your discard pile, ignoring bow costs. If the Ring was in the discard pile, reshuffle it into your Fate deck.
Answers on: Ring of Air
Ring of Air is Repeatable Battle/Open (bow): Straighten one or two of your target cards in one unit.
Yeah, KingAnj is right. Even though you can use it without bowing it, there's no explicit waiver for the Rule that bowed cards can't use their non-Tireless actions.
WHAT DID YOU CALL ME?!
lol
That's a Grudge
The wrong name. I said I was on my phone. 😛
https://tenor.com/view/shocked-sunglasses-double-sunglasses-look-remove-shades-gif-17848793
format/edition tag please.
[Imperial]
Can I kill a 4 chi personality with Nogoten's Bow that has been targetted by Kyudo?
Hrm. Interesting. While it says it's a Ranged Attack, Kydo says to give it -1 Strength.
I assume it won't be decreased since it gives -2 chi as tokens
Also, my friend says I have to target two different perosnalities? I don't think that's the case?
I see no reason to have to target someone else.
They're consecutive -2C RAs, from what I can tell.
@saaam While there's no direct Archived Ruling for Nogoten's Bow + Kyudo, the 2 existent, somewhat contemporary rulings (1998) for how Kyudo interacts with Jade/Crystal Arrow are somewhat enlightening (mostly the first of the two rulings) and also stupid (both of them, but mostly the second one).
However, that said, the first Ruling would lead me to conclude that Kyudo + Nogoten's Bow's second ability would created a Ranged Attack 0 as the second consecutive RA with no additonal effects (giving the -2C). I'm not sure anyone can say with certainty how they were Ruled to work in contemporary Clan War, but this is how I would Rule if I were running a Clan War or OBH tounament.
Let me break down the logic for you:
The first Ruling on Jade/Crystal Arrow (which are considered RA actions like Nogoten's Bow's is also) is that when combo'd with Kyudo, the Strategy's effect creates a second RA with strength based on the Personality's ability, not a second boom-instant-destruction effect (this is the enlightening part) that you get from J/C Arrow. I conclude that this tells us that a Kyudo'd 2nd NB RA would likewise not give another -2C.
Now, the reason Kyudo's granted second-RA is based on the Personality's RA for J/C Arrow is... slightly silly. The idea behind J/C Arrows' abilities' restriction that the Personality they're attached has to have an RA ability to use theirs is that they're "loading" the "special arrow" into their "already existent" "bow". So, naturally, once you expend that "special arrow" (the cards blow themself up after use), you're down to taking your second shot with a "regular arrow", the Personality's normal/printed RA strength. Honestly, while the "story simulation" logic is sound, I would/did not Oracle-word Kyudo to account for this logic/Ruling, so in an OBH game, I would also have the second attack granted by Kyudo based of a J/C arrow be a generic RA 0, because the RA action it's based on has no "strength", which is my same reason for saying the same thing above for NB; Rulings should be based on the Rules and card text, not ephemeral "story logic" unsupported by either of the first two.
Now, the second (sillier!) Archived Ruling for Kyudo (which got added to the Accumulated Rulings slightly after the first, as it is not present on an earlier 1998 copy, though it says it also comes from 1998) says if the Personality in question has TWO J and/or C Arrows attached, it was Ruled Kyudo allows you use the second Arrow's ability after the first as the granted consecutive RA. This is clearly another Ruling based more in "story simlution" than Rules/card text; "if the guy has two special arrows and can fire two shots, he can fire both special arrows". So, in a normal situation, the Kyudo effect itself simply creates a second RA equal to the first, but if you "have two arrows", it lets you use two separate cards' abilities and doesn't create anything itself? That's just inconsistent. And I mention this because maybe it could be argued by taking this Ruling into account that both the J/C Arrow + Kyudo Rulings are just special things related only to those Item cards, shouldn't be more broadly applied, and what Kyudo actually does is just create a second RA that is in all ways the same as the first; basically "resolve the RA's effects twice (oh but not if it's a J/C Arrow)" (except these Rulings are under Kyudo itself, not the Arrows; maybe to save space/ease of finding?). But again, I find that inconsistent when looking at the cards in a Rules/text-only vaccuum; either the Rulings should apply to both Arrows and the Bow, or none, and you definitely shouldn't get 2 boom-kills off only 1 copy of either Arrow.
Just my... well, not 2 cents, more like dollar and change. 😛
[ShE] Allways thought this card let you choose the attachment, but the wording dosnt specify, any clarifications?
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Yes, you choose; being that it's your action, the choice being yours is implicit. I mean, if not you, who?
Thats exactly what i was thinking, but i was told otherwise in a match... seems like they didnt want to loose their precious attachment xD thx for the explanation
Those precious attachments must be saved at all costs 🤣 🤣 🤣
New player? :/ Rout has been around for a long time in previous editions, so its functionality should be well known by most.
That's true
I dont wanna name anybody, but i think they are veterans of the game, it dosnt matter, was a friendly match so no big deal, just wanted to clarify for future tournaments
MacBeth: That is definitely your inflation-adjusted-since-the-90s US$2, so closer to US$4 now. 😄 Appreciate the discussion!
[EE] Are spells with the keyword "forest" considered a forest in order to be targeted by Kyuden Kitsune stronghold? Somewhat I was expecting holdings
Answers on: Kyuden Kitsune
Yes. That is if you don't mind bowing the spell.
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Oh well, I missed that. That makes Mantis honor builds even stronger than I thought <grins>
Yeah, those Spells were specifically designed with this Stronghold in mind. There's literally no other reason for them to have that keyword. 🙂
Sadly, this is not Repeatable.
You could always use these card
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What exactly is the meaning of that stronghold's trait?
If you are defending the first movement action taken from the attacking army gets negated
Basically the have to do 2 movement actions to move in the battle
I see, that's why I thought, but wanted confirmation, thanks
Funny part is that if they attack all 4 provinces it happens on all 4 provinces
Indeed, it is each battle... that trait is annoying hahaha
Third Whisker Warren on Oracle says 'target a player' instead of 'target an opponent'. Errata or error?
Answers on: Third Whisker Warren
Yeah, just appears to be a transposition error (replacing the outmoded "opponent" term with "player" from the next sentence for modernization and consistency), mistyping "a" instead of "another". Will fix.
[EE] Obscured Pathways (spell). A clarification regarding rule of presence, that woud apply to this card and many others with similar wording. Even if my shugenja is earth and is home, would I need another personality at the battle where I want to target an attacking personality with Obscured Pathways?
If memory serves, yes: in EE, the only exceptions to the rule of presence are cards that can or could establish presence OR cards that specify by their text that they ignore the rule of presence, though I admittedly can't recall any in EE off the top of my head (and can't check to verify right now)
Marcus is correct. See "Disgraceful Conduct" for the exact wording of the explicit exception to Presence.
Nice, thanks both
Answers on: Yoritomo Iwashi
[EE] Yoritomo Iwashi. Does "last turn" refer to current turn in which he is performing his limited action, or to the turn before the current one? And, does a "battle won" require destruction of enemy units / provinces during the battle resolution segment? Thank you in advance
1. The turn before the current.
2. No. Winning in EE only requires that your army had the higher Force (note the Rules reminder text on "Aramasu's Legacy").
Ah, the weirdness of that stronghold still have me trying to decipher if I can make a competitive Mantis deck with it lol. Thanks for the quick replies!
[OBH] Border Keep exp2 and Whispers of the Dying Sun: Do you get to refill provinces 3 or 4 times?
Answers on: Border Keep, Whispers of the Dying Sun
Three, not four.
Aramasus Legacy had many competitive decks during the tail end of EE. It just got over shadowed with the power level of KL. And when KL was banned there where not enough tournaments for it to shine
[EE] Put it into play -> bowed or not?
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Don't have the Rules handy but pretty sure Holdings enter play bowed regardless of how. Except pre-20F Rules Fortifications, of course.
Bowed. I have seen faceless castle deck during CE and EE
[ShE] The personality I targeted to use this strategy could be moved to a battlefield using the Cavalry Engage ability?
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No
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I see, and the personality can be assigned?
If they are a berserker and therefore did not bow, your Personality you targeted with Brutal Lesson may be assigned. You can use actions from that Personality or his Unit, you can however not target them with actions from your hand or from other cards in play. He can still be targeted by actions from your opponent.
Answers on: Brutal Lesson
So the restriction would be using the cavalry engagement ability, and targeting the personality with actions from your hand or from other cards in play, right?
Well, you're saying it like those are different things, but basically you can't target the Berserker with your actions, full stop. That includes the Cavalry engage action granted to you by the Rulebook, your actions in your hand, and your actions on your cards in play. Makes sense?
Yes, got it, thanks!
One more thing, though, why the personality can be assigned? It is because assigning doesn't target (I think it does) or because it is not an action? @Brook Cunningham
Both reasons. Assigning is not targeted and is not an action.
Oh... good to know, thanks!
[ShE] Is this considered a favor action?
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I'm not sure because in this case, discarding the favor is optional
No. An action is only a "Favor action" if it has the Favor icon as a cost, before the first bold colon, not if it's in the effects.
(Additionally, if an action has the Favor as an optional cost, such as "Political Battle, [Favor] or [4 Gold]: [Effects]", it is only a Favor action if you choose to pay the Favor cost and not the other.)
That's what I thought, thank you!!
So in the above instance if he opts to discard the favor is it then a favor action?
No, because it's not a cost to the action, it's an optional secondary effect
Even though it looks like a cost, it's not a cost to the entire action
The ShE version of Suikihime has an Open/Engage action that as part of its effect may discard the Favor, but it's not a Favor action
Just so there's another card for comparisons sake
[ShE] If i move my cavalry personality with cavalry as engage action, and they are the only personality in the battle... do i have to give them -2F since they are the only target available for the Hideyo passive?
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I believe to use the Calvary’s action the personality would have to be opposed to where it moves so they would not be the only personality
This is what it saiys in the rules----> Absent Engage: Target your unbowed Personality in a Cavalry unit at any location. Move it to the current battleeld.
If the rules read that way yes they would get the -2 Force
Isnt that a little crazy that an unicorn sensei is nerfing your unicorn cavalry? are we sure it work that way? i mean, rules as writen it does...
It’s a trait
If it had been a reaction or interrupt then you could not use it and be good
Yes, that's how it works. Playing with a particular Sensei is a choice; this one supports a build/play style of outforcing opposing armies through movement. If you're looking to use Cav Engage to move in unopposed, you should probably pick a different Sensei.
Hideyo Sensei is a deliberate design choice; the Moto Berserkers don't use their horses to dance around armies and crush their castle, they charge right towards them and crush their skulls
Yeah i totally get it, unfortunately there is no other options for a sensei for Unicorn decks unless you are runing death-priests. Seeing that other clans have 3 or 4 versatile options it may be a good oportunity to expand the Ki-Rin options in that department? 🙂 (a man can dream...) Sorry for the pseudo off topic. /rant
Bide your time is listed on Oracle as having both a card cost of 2 gold and an action costs of 2 gold. I'm assuming this is a mistake?
It's a redundancy, in the same way (as an example) the text of a Strategy action will read, "Political Reaction:" and the Keyword field of the Oracle entry will also have "Political" in it.
I get that. But with Political this has no impact, with gold cost this would imply having to pay 2 times...
No, it doesn't. The gold cost of a Strategy is equivalent to the cost of its actions. It's the same thing. Note that modern printed Strategies with the Gold Cost as part of the action line lack a coin above their text box.
It is at the very least inconsistent with every other card which has either a listed card cost or action cost, but as far as I have seen not both and imo it goes against logic for 'invest', which to be fair only appears on cards without card cost.
I won't argue that it isn't inconsistent, but I'm afraid introducing consistency may not be an endeavor that is practical for the Oracle admin to undertake, as it would either involve scrubbing the stat from every Strategy or adding it to all Ivory+ cards based on if their actions have a cost, both of which solutions would also create their own problems.
A similar problem occurs at Mukudori's Wisdom, which copied the 2 gold cost of the kharmic action to the card cost...
Answers on: Mukudori's Wisdom
And there it is most certainly wrong...
Ah yeah. See, I had forgotten that solution #2 of my suggestions above had already been applied as a computer script, and as you can see, not without problems of its own, just as I guessed. 😛 I will fix Mukudori's Wisdom.
^ add in The Tomb of Sun Tao; the rest of GoC Kharmic strategies are ok
Maybe fix Bide Your Time too...? I'm trying to look at this from a new player's perspective and it is simply not clear that it only costs 2 gold, not 4...
For Bide, I would show them an Ivory Strategy with a costed action as an example for why it's like that. In both cases, there are two "entries" for the cost in the Oracle, but only 1 on the printed card.
But why keep this as the only exception? Oracle should be the thing we can point to for clarification, not to then have to explain to them how this bit and that bit got in there because of how the game changed over time... No?
When you say "only", are you just talking about Bide specifically, or Strategies generally? Because, if the former, Egg of P'an Ku is also formatted like Bide, and possibly a few others. Sadly, I still haven't gotten around to changing all cards' text to how they would appear in Ivory/20F; many remain at an Emperor level of standardization.
I mean Bide specifically as the exception to having the cost redundancy. Also if you need help on getting the card pool adjusted: I have a whole lot of time
Well, as I said, Egg also has it, possibly more, and all of Ivory+ has the redundancy too.
Well, let me help...
I'm saying that it's a feature, not a bug, when it comes to Ivory, and therefore Bide and Egg are consistent with them. You and I disagree on what should be "fixed".
Shouldn't we get all cards on the same format? I'm willing to do the work so they are.
And then the bug or feature should fix itself
Ideally, but without an automated system of oversight in place, it would be just as much work or more for me to delegate doing it rather than just doing it myself.
To my mind, just removing the card cost from old cards and adding any that have a card cost to their actions would set them all to the same format in this regard. I get that that's a lot of work, but surely I can do that on a text file of the script, rather than on oracle itself and then it just needs to be copied (or read and copied). That should be faster for you than doing it all by yourself.
Is it in xml?
Well, once again, you're suggesting a fix that goes counter to how Ivory cards are formatted. They have the redundancy, so removing it from old cards would be inconsistent.
Ivory cards have no card cost, right?
Yes, in Oracle they do. Physically, they don't.
But that doesn't matter if we all remove them so that none of them have a card cost... And then Strategy cards regardless of set would only have action costs and be uniform...
Doing that breaks the ability to search for them by cost in the Oracle filters.
Then the other way around if that feature is something you want to keep. Give all the new cards a cost and display none of the card costs on Oracle, but allow the search.
And add the Action cost to old cards so they still show the cost
Well, unfortunately, I don't know the code, and the guy who runs the Oracle coding on the backend has other things on his long to do list. I see unfortunately that searching for 0 cost won't pull up a null field when it comes to Ivory+ Strats, so it's sort of borked as it is (reprints have a 0 in the field but new cards don't have anything). However, if it was an easy fix, he probably would've done it before. 😦
Can you check with him if the cards are listed in xml? If so, if he can send over the list. And then I can fix it manually, which is something he probably doesn't have the time for.
Ok. Meanwhile, we should shush; Kempy will probably bust a vessel at how off Rules the discussion got. 🙂
It's all for the greater good of the game, so he'll have to forgive us 😉
[ShE] You bow the fortification for gold, with this edict you straight it and then it says negate its bowing, so... you cant use again for gold?
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Correct. 🙂
What am i missing? does it have like a combo with an specific fortification?
Probably? I'm afraid I no longer have an exhaustive list of all cards memorized... those were the days... but at the least, it leaves the Fortification unbowed for use on your opponent's turn, and Equipping is an Open action.
Thx for the info mate, dont sweat it, you do more thant enough believe me. Ok i gues that can be productive for attachments and stuff
It'l also be available for an actions on it that don't have a bow cost (though can't recall any off the top of my head)
[ShE] Can you "From your friend" another "From your friend"¿? xD
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Answers on: "From Your Friend"
can't use Interrupt or Response on an action that is an Interrupt or Response
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[EE]. My doubt with the card is the sentence "You will not take any other additional Battle actions this battle". Does this mean you can no longer play any battle actions after those two, or that you can no longer gain "additional battle actions", such as from playing a second copy of this card?
after playing OATS you won't be allowed to play any Battle action as "additional action" this battle after playing your own two additional Battle actions provided by this card.
I agree but is this stated somewhere on the rules? can't find it
Well, "additional actions" are a specifically Rules-defined thing; actions granted outside the normal sequence. The word "addtional" will not be used in conjunction with "actions" to generically mean "any other".
Also you still may gain additional Battle action(s) but you wouldn't be allowed to play them.
Right; "addtional" actions are always optional (though they often explicitly say "you may take", they also are implicitly optional), so though an effect may grant them, this card's effect prohibits you taking them. Also, choosing or being forced to pass "additional actions" does not end the action round.
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so it´s second case?
Yes.
Also - if you play another OATS as first additional action, you won't play any additional action(s) from it - if you play any Battle action as first additional action, and somebody's will react with eg with Iron Will, you won't be able to play additional action guaranteed by it as well.
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I see. Several card effects out there grant "addiotional battle actions". Those are neglected for you after you use the two additional battle actions granted by OATS during rest of the battle
Rulebook Battle Spell Equip followed by additional action from Spell, and Iron Will and Without Mercy/Unstoppable Strike were probably most popular "additional" ones during Emperor.
Spells I´ve got a few in the gempukku starters, but Iron Will, Without Mercy and Unstoppable Strike I have yet to see a single copy. I have a tricky deck building path in our emperor duel hehe
[EE] MOSHI INO. What happens if I play her battle action and then my opponent plays a battle action for which he bows his performer as a cost, or targets with his battle action a bowed performer? Is he forced to discard a card from his hand if the performer is already bowed or he can choose a bowed performer to bow nonetheless? Thanks
As it's "After action resolves" he may choose to bow bowed performer.
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Definition of "Additional Action" is in EE Comprehensive Rules
Additional action Some effects grant an “additional” action of a given type (usually Battle, Open or Limited).
If the type of an additional action is not specified, it cannot be a Reaction and must be appropriate to the player and phase (Limited or Open in your Action Phase; Open in another player's Action Phase; Battle in a Combat Segment).
The additional action is taken at an additional opportunity to act in the current action round, before the next regular opportunity. It does not count against the normal sequence of actions in the current segment or phase; for example, an additional Battle action is taken without waiting for, or expending, the next normal chance to take a Battle action. [Changed 7 March 2013]
This additional opportunity to act can be used to pass; the choice to pass is made at the point of taking the additional action. If you pass, this does not count towards ending the action round.
Multiple additional actions are taken in the order they are granted.
If an effect grants an additional action outside an Action Phase or a Combat Segment's action round (such as during the Dynasty Phase), the additional action happens after the action or trait granting it has resolved fully and all opportunities to react to the action or trait have passed.
excellent, a reference in the EE is always the best. Thanks for looking it up
[EE] what is the force of an equipment, is it the same as the force bonus it gives the personality?
this is in the context of cards that compare certain value against an attachment's force
From EE CR:
Items Items, with a dark blue background, are attachments that represent special objects in a Personality’s possession.
Unlike the separate Force of Followers, Items have a Force modifier stat in the upper left hand icon that directly raises or lowers their Personality’s Force. Items likewise have a Chi modifier stat that directly raises or lowers their Personality’s Chi.
If something in the game needs to check an Item’s Force or Chi separately from its Personality’s stats, use the value of its modifier (minimum zero).
Force and Chi bonuses or penalties to an Item affect the modifier; for example, a +1F Item that suffers -2F now has a -1F modifier.
[EE] Am I correct assuming the reaction can be used both is the card is in hand, or attached to a personality?
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I think it works only from play. EE legal card that might be attached from hand is worded this way.
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if the comparison is the only evidence, I am not really sure. the difference in wording could mean that it can only attach from your hand, not from anywhere else in play.
@kempy_nezumi The yari's ability (just like the Kensai blade) may only be used from hand. Despite it not being worded as explicitly clearly, note you wouldn't have to pay costs if it was already in play, and attach in CE/EE context meant Equip (see Oracle) not Transfer.
[ShE] If I gain 1 honor and I try to rehonor my personality, what happens if the opponent interrupts with an honor card to reduce that gain to 0... my personality rehonors or not?
If the gain is reduced to 0, the Personality would not rehonor
Thanks!! a player here is the answer
[ShE] Silly rules question, with Hoji Ejiro... Can I reduce something that doesnt have a cost, just to do the honor loss?
Answers on: Hoji Ejiro
👉 Please tag your rules questions with [edition/format] you are asking for. Please use square brackets like [SE], [OBH], [20F] etc.
If there is no cost for the Strategy's action, the "Before [it] is paid" trigger does not happen, so no.
What about with discipline costs, is that added into the strategy cost or no?
Discipline (and Invest) add to the action's cost, or give the action a cost if it previously had none; they are not separate. So, yes, Disciplined or Invested Strategy actions could trigger Ejiro's trait.
[ShE] What is the use of this trait? a chance to take an additional action in case I pass by mistake, giving my opponent the opportunity to go to the battle phase?
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In any normal case, your opponent would have the opportunity to take their own Open action after yours until you both pass. The trait allows you to take one Open action per Turn after which they have no opportunity to do anything else before the Attack and/or Dynasty. It could be the difference between you setting something up that they could have had some Open "defense" or "counter play" for that they now cannot do.
Oh, I see... that is useful indeed. Thanks!
[ShE] If I use this holding to pay for a 2 Gold follower, do I get the 2 additional gold?
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No
[ShE] If I declare Naval in a Raid Battle, can I declare Naval again in the regular battle in the same turn?
Yes
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[ShE] Is cavalry engage considered a battle action?
No. Engage actions are not Battle actions and happen in a separate segment/round.
Uhh nice, good to know, would have swear it were since engage is somewhat a part of a battle.
Well, they do happen during battles, but they're not Battle actions any more than Interrupts during a battle are. Each battle has an Engage segment (for Engage actions), a Combat segment (for Battle actions), and a Resolution segment.
That makes it more clear, thx as allways mate !
[ShE] If that's the case, what happens with this Sensei's trait if I win a duel during the engage segment, that segment is considered a part of the battle? do I get to win 1 honor?
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Yes, it is part of the battle; those 3 segments in total comprise the battle itself as a whole.
Got it. Thanks!!!
Say I have Mirumoto Hikaro and I have three copies of her. If I have one in play, do I eliminate the first one if the second comes in? It says Discard all your other Sensei personalities. Just wondering.
Answers on: Mirumoto Hikaro
Please, remember to put in brackets the edition [EE], [ShE], etc
Yes. The trait discarding your "other" Sensei Personalities means all other, not just "other by title".
oh ok. hmmmmm. Sorry it's EE
Still building a deck
[ShE] Let's say in turn 1 there is an event in one of my provinces, an event that I can put into play as an open action. My first action is putting the event into play, then my second one is cycling 2 face up cards. However, since I previously put the event into play, I end up having 3 provinces with face down cards on them... can I flip all of them face up? Or I can only flip the two cards that refilled my provinces due to the cycle?
As its last effect, Cycle turns all cards in your Provinces face-up.
That's what I thought. Thanks!!!
[EE] No time for games. Does this card act as a naval counter or also cancels action played after naval declaration? I mean, if I declare naval as attacker and then a ranged attack on a strategy card from hand, does No time for games cancel both my right to play first (naval declaration) and the card I played from my hand?
Answers on: No Time for Games
If an action's effects are negated, you don't get an opportunity to play another in its place. So, while NTFG does only negate the effects of the Ranged Battle action, your Naval at engagement for that battle is now effectively irrelevant too.
Thanks. Then I must say I am surprised the card is not banned, as others, since not only counters naval and any type of battle action from opposing player, but also has a second use against dishonor. It´s match deciding against Mantis clan
No, it counters "any type of battle action" only while played before first opportunity for defenders, so as Naval or eg from Sneak Attack. This card was rarely or even never played. During Emperor people used Entrenched Position as Naval/Sneak counter as it has much more universal battle action as well.
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I believe if someone didnt have Forgotten Legacy set, No Time for Games was probably only available budget version of anti Sneak card.
Well, this is stronger indeed. I didn´t know, but we just have Gempkku starters and a few Gempukku boosters (6 rares) and some others from Before the Dawn, Seeds of Despair and Embers of War. I assume we´re missing a lot
Entrenched position was one of most used universal anti-sneak during EE. Those that play no time for games are usually are for honor runners if they ever went against dishonor. Back in the day many would advise EP for newbies specially for low honor clans as it has a good battle action
But for CE reinforce the gates was better. As its effects is not negation. The action simple does not happen
A question, still on EE, are all "after engage" reactions considered actions too, and thus can their effects be negated as well with cards such as NTfG and EP?
Reactions are actions, but they are not "Battle" actions, thus are not legal triggers for NTFG or EP. Only actions with the "Battle" designator are.
Makes sense, thanks
I am not sure I understand the reaction, it allows you to destroy your own personality when it's targeted? I am not sure I had seen 'discard' before, it's usually 'destroy'
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Please tag your rules questions with [edition/format] you are asking for. Please use square brackets like [SE], [OBH], [20F] etc.
If you discard a Personality it remains a discarded status there. It's not destroying. It's important for other cards - like compare Civility with Resurrection.
The discard ability on this card is for one of the rings. I think it's earth. You can't have a personality destroyed at the battle. So when they try and kill your guy you react and discard him to avoid being destroyed. If it's not earth it's fire. One of them.
It's EE Ring of Earth.
[ShE} Does Sake house of high waters, straighten if I make a raid attack from the mantis clan stronghold, assuming not since its a "raid battle" and not an attack phase
emphasis 2nd sentence "...This is an additional Attack Phase..."
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Oh awesome need to include those then
[EE] Too Close to Home. Would it negate assigning to battlefields? my guess is no. Would it negate the use of Imperial Favor to send a personality home? my guess is yes.
Answers on: Too Close to Home
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Your guesses are correct. Assigning is not considered movement.
[EE] Carpenter Castle. I don't quite understand "your target castle or siege card". And there is no mention of a performer. Is this the old pre-emperor wording and should I read it as "bow your performer castle or siege card:...". But I thought only personalities could be performers, not "castles" so I am a bit confused 🤪
Answers on: Carpenter Castle
[attachment: printing_1218_1_details.png]
In EE, actions are only performed if the cards says so. In the case of Carpenter Castle, bowing a Castle or Siege card is a cost of the action, but not performed
From EE CR:
Perform A Personality or Follower is performing an action if its controller is the player taking the action (or, if the Personality or Follower is out of play, if its owner is the player taking the action), and any of these things is true:
The action is from an ability on the Personality or Follower. The action is from an ability on an Item or Spell in the Personality’s unit. The Personality or Follower is chosen or designated as a performer in the action's constraints block, using the word "performing." The timing point at which "[a card] performs" an action is during the "Choose Performers" step of taking an action, when the Personality or Follower's status as a performer is known.
Only Personalities and Followers may perform actions; no other card type may be chosen as a performer.
Also note, Personalities or Followers can perform, but Techno and Kempy are correct. As of midway through CE (starting in Plague War), performing is explicit in actions that are not on the performer or one of their attachments.
I see thanks, I still don't see why they mention "target" instead of just "bow your castle or siege card:", but I see what you mean.
To prevent the targeting of Siege cards in units not at the battlefield by Rule of Location.
Becasue without target you could use and bow such Follower at any location.
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so... can I bow any of my cards then, even holdings then, at any location, if I understand correctly
Only cards in units are governed by Rule of Location when it comes to targeting.
I didn't know that one
I can't target cards in units not in the battlefield to use the stronghold action then, or can I? This one is too complex for me, lol
You mean Stronghold action?
yes sorry
No, you cannot target cards in units that are not at the current battlefield.
I thought I was beginning to udnerstand this game, but alas... 🤪
target must be a siege/castle card in the battlefield, or a card not limited by rule of location such as holding, region or the SH itself. Correct?
wait, region must be limited too, probably
Correct.
No.
[ShE] What is the correct meaning of this trait: 1) does this spell can only be used by Phoenix personalities? 2) this spell can be used any Phoenix personality no matter if they are Shugenja or not? 3) None of the above?
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2
[ShE] Let's say I attached this spell to a 3C personality: if I destroy the spell to make 2 consecutive range attacks, the strength of those attacks would be 3 or 4?
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3
Thanks a lot!!
[ShE] Can Yaheiko sensei prevent the destruction of the personality? im guessing yes but want to confirm
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I think so, they would neither move home nor be affected by the destruction. However, if they're not alone and the -3F means they're not longer the highest Force Personality you control, and you did not move home 2 Personalities, whoever ends up with the highest Force on your side will still be destroyed (For example, you control two personalities, one 7F, one 6F, and use the Sensei's Interrupt on the 7F, they'll go down to 4F and your 6F will be destroyed)
Hms, but the Yaheiko ability negate the battle actions effect, doesnt that mean that nobody will get destroyed once you use it?
It negates the effects on one particular target Berserker of yours. Any other effects of the action on other cards still happen.
But there is no other effect right? maybe im seen the sequence the wrong way, Overwhelmed target a personality ---> Yaehiko negate the effects ---> the end?
No. Overwhelmed is sort of complicated; maybe I can illustrate the point better and quicker with another card.
If someone targets your Berserker with Rout, Yaheiko would negate Rout's effect of movement, because that affects the Berserker, however one of their attachments would still be destroyed, because that's an effect on the attachment not on the Berserker.
Does that help clarify?
Yaheiko Sensei is bowed during the Interrupt step, which happens before the effects resolve. To illustrate:
Overwhelmed is announced as the next action for the Defender, there are no costs Yaheiko Sensei targets one attacking Berserker, who gets -3F Defender resolves the first effect of Overwhelmed, destroying his strongest F guy You now either choose 2 to go home or not, other than your Sensei-targeted Berserker If you didn't, check for highest Force. If it's still the Sensei-targeted Berserker, nothing happens. If it's any other of your attacking Personalities, they get destroyed instead. The effect of Overwhelmed has now been resolved, and you may play or use Responses, or pass
^of course, Marcus had the time and patience to fully explain and is correct (except for typoing the Sensei name at one point) 🙂
I'm Overwhelmed as well (only AC is a standing fan at work so brain parts a bit more than usual, correcting now)
I have a follow up question. If my opponent uses Overwhelmed and I have only one personality in the battlefield, can I use Flame's Protection to negate the action? Since I have only 1 personality, Overwhelmed's effect is obviously going to affect it... or the fact that Overwhelmed doesn't target still prevents that spell from being used?
Answers on: Flame's Protection
Nope. The restriction on FP is that the action has to be targeting the Shugenja already at the Interrupt step, from having done so in the Choose targets step. But Overwhelmed doesn't target your Shugenja until effects.
That's what I thought... sigh... I simply cannot stop hating overwhelmed...
Thank you very much!
Ok, i think i got it now, was missing the "yaheiko sensei is bowed during the interrupt step", for some reason i though you could interrupt just the part that says "destroy your strongest" but no, you have to declare yaheiko at the begining of the battle action. To sumarize, the only way for overwhelm to destroy a target in this specific situation, would be if the sensei's personality is now not the strongest. Thanks all for the insight
Correct. Given that a Berserker build will tend towards a tower-style approach, your best defence against Overwhelmed is going in solo with Yaheiko Sensei unbowed, which is coincidentally the one situation the Defender wants for playing Overwhelmed. Just make sure your tower will be big enough to break the province afterwards (either having 3 more force as a buffer, or something to negate the Force penalty as a Battle action on your turn)
Hmmm, now that does raise another question... if after the Sensei targets a personality to protect them and give them -3F, let's say now another personlity is the one with the highest force... can the player interrupt Overwhelmed again to target the other personality and reduce their force so the one affected by the sensei was the one with the highest force?
Yes, though not with Yaheiko Sensei, since it is a) bowed and therefore cannot use its Interrupt since it's not Tireless, and b) it's not Repeatable
Yeah, I meant with another strategy or effect, etc
If you have another Interrupt that can reduce force, or pump the protected Berserker, yes. The Interrupt window stays open until both players pass consecutively
There may not be one, as many ShE Interrupts are pretty specific with their restrictions regarding under what circumstances they can actually be played (see Flame's Protection 😉 ), but if you find one, sure. 🙂
Whether or not one exists is another question that I can't check currently, and bear in mind that you can't play an Interrupt on an Interrupt (for example something like Courage Beyond Question negates Force penalties as an Interrupt, therefore can't be used to negate the force penalties from the Sensei)
Got it, thanks you!!!!
[EE] Stone-Hewed Shrine. Can its battle action be used at any battlefield or is limited to the province this region is attached to?
Answers on: Stone-Hewed Shrine
Any. Only pasive Force bonus from trait is limited to Personalities at a battlefield at Province this Region is attached to.
You may even increase PS while attacking (for False Ring of Water).
Nice, thanks
Btw if you get any Role in (link) you would be allowed to attach eg cards' images here.
[ShE] If i play this card during a battle, is it considered a battle action?
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meaning, can it be countered by Earth ring?
No. "Battle actions" are only ones with the "Battle" designator.
It should also be noted that as a general Rule, you cannot Interrupt an Interrupt.
You are again 100% correct xD, should have notice that
[ShE] Just to confirm, the ranged attack has to target someone right? even if is not writen in the card. So spells like flames protection can counter it?
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Yes. You cannot play the Battle action of Salvo just to run away without also targeting a legal RA target. "Ranged X Attack" is short for "Target an enemy Follower or Personality without Followers and destroy them if their Force is equal to or less than X." (Quote from memory, so may not be 100% exact.)
That make sense ok. And just to clarify the interaction between Retreating Salvo and Hideyo sensei, does the movement of Salvo occur before the RA so i can apply the -2F of Hideyo?
Answers on: Retreating Salvo, Hideyo Sensei
Hideyo is "after your personality moves" so thats why i doubt
Yes. The effects of the card occur in the order written. Also note that the "to" means that your Personality has to both bow and move or else the RA effect doesn't even happen at all, so they would have to occur before it.
Uh, thas really good to know, thx as allways mate
Follow up question, if I negate the RA with Flame's Protection, the enemy personality returns to the battlefield? Or they stay at home since the movement was done first and the spell only negated the RA?
FP negates all the action's effects before they happen. The Salvo Personality never bows and never leaves.
Because bowing and moving the personality is not a cost, right?
Right; everything after the colon are effects of the action. Some are just conditional upon others happening first.
Got it, thank you very much!
[EE] Legion of the Bat vs Courage of the Mantis. After Mantis Clan personality is moved with Courage of the Mantis to Legíon of the Bat´s battlefield, does reaction on the latter bows the moving personality before or after addtional action granted by Courage of the Mantis?
Answers on: Legion of the Bat
Before. The additional action granted by Courage does not take place during/within it. So, it resolves, then you get to take an additional action after; in between that, your opponent can React with the Legion.
Thank you. It was unclear to me if additional actions granted by some card effects were or not considered part of the card´s resolution
But Legión of the Bat is after the resolution of an action that moves a unit. Courage of the mantis is totally resolve when they move and take an additional action.
The granting of the opportunity to take an additional action is the last effect of Courage. Taking that additional action itself is separate and after Courage has resolved.
[ShE] If i use overwhelmed, my oponent has 2 personalities and try to move them, but i negate 1 of the movement with ring of earth, would the second part of overwhelmed trigger since he wasnt able to move 2 personalities?
Answers on: Ring of Earth
Your example is slightly incorrect, but the end result is yes, your opponent would have to destroy someone.
Where you erred slightly is the timing and scope of Ring of Earth:
First you announce Overwhelmed, then you pay its costs (none), then you choose you highest Force target for the first effect. After these steps comes the Interrupt step, where players can Interrupt the action; when it's your turn to Interrupt, you play Ring of Earth, which will negate all movement caused by Overwhelmed. After both players pass the chance to Interrupt, Overwhelmed's effects resolve. It blows up your target highest Personality, then your opponent must choose to target and send home two people. Whether they do or don't target anyone, the movement will be negated, so the destruction effect happens.
Aaah i see, i keep forgetting the right sequence of things. Thx for the clarification
[EE] Loyalty of the Scorpion. Since it's not a "battle" reaction, can the performing personality be at a location different than the current battlefield, if used during the combat segment?
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Yes. Reactions are exempt from the Rule of Location (and the Rule of Presence, but that's not relevant to the question). Also note, there's no such thing as a "Battle Reaction". Reactions should never be paired with another timing designator like Battle/Open/Limited if I'm remembering correctly, and furthermore, if any timing designators are paired, such as the fairly common Battle/Open, only the designator appropriate to the phase during which you're taking it applies when you do. (As in, if you have a Reaction that says, "Negate a Battle action", it can't negate a Battle/Open taken during the Action Phase.)
[ShE] Does the action from Ring of Earth is considered an action with elemental keyword or does it have to had the wording in bold ? (ex: Fire battle)
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Answers on: Ring of Earth
Technically "Element" keyword not "Elemental", but yes. As of ShE, the Rules indicate that keywords on cards are shared equally between their subtitles, lefthand-frame symbols, keyword lines, and actions.
[EE] If I win honor by destroying cards at battle resolution, can I rehonor all my dishonorable personalities at the battlefield or can I just rehonor one of them?
Does the card negate destruction as a result of a melee or ranged attack, or it has to be an effect that specifically destroys a personality to be negated by The Loyalty of the Scorpion?
I don't have the Rules handy, but I'm almost certain it's all of them.
Great! Thanks!
Ranged and Melee attacks do specifically destroy; it's effectively the same thing.
[ShE]: Can i use the ability from the "Inheritance Rule" even if my Stronghold is bowed?
Yes. It's a player ability, not on the Stronghold.
[EE] HIDDEN FALLS DOJO (stronghold): Scout personalities with non-scout followers attached can benefit from stronghold´s recon open action?
Answers on: Hidden Falls Dojo
Followers, or a lack thereof, or their keywords, aren't relevant to the effects of the Stronghold. So, the answer is "yes".
[EE] when you are asked to place a card at the bottom of a deck with no other explicit instructions, can you look at it first?
No.
[EE] Hiruma Sniper (follower): can its ranged attack action be used when attached to an attacking naval personality to act before the defender?
Answers on: Hiruma Sniper
No.
Kempy is correct above because, in EE, the Naval Personality must perform the action. Followers perform their own actions.
Thanks both
[EE] an action that says "Battle: even if the performing personality is not at the current battlefield..." is still subject to rule of presence and can't be used if you have no presence in the battle, correct or wrong?
Correct.
I don’t have access to the comprehensive at the moment; does the ‘actions which create presence’ exemption apply in EE?
Yes. Absent wasn't a thing until Ivory.
I asked because the answer to the above question would then be: correct unless action creates presence
Fair point. I was only answering based on the text provided. Certainly other text/effects of the action could create an exception to Presence, but that which was provided does not.
^something additional to note
[EE] let's suppose Yogo Heijin isn't at the current battlefield. Could he still bring one of your courtiers and an enemy personality to current battlefield?
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Answers on: Yogo Heijin, The Host's Advantage
another [EE] question, which inspired my query earlier today. Can 'The Host's Advantage' be used if you have no presence in battle?
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No. Heijin has to be at the battlefield himself to take the action.
Indeed, it cannot. No exceptions to Presence within its text/effects.
understood, thanks again!
I have another [EE] question here: If I declare attackers to one of the scorpion´s provinces (i.e. with cavalry or crane scouts) after Yogo Heijin has been declared defender in another province that is not being attacked, is the battle at the province with no attackers resolved and Heijin can use his battle action to move a courtier and an enemy personality to his battlefield? Thanks
Yes.
"EXCEPTION: As with the Rule of Presence, a Battle action can target, be performed by, or be taken by a card in a unit at another location if its costs or effects say they are able to move, or otherwise relocate, that unit to the current battlefield. The player who is taking the action must take choices within the action, if possible, such that they do move that unit there."
If you choose a battle with Hijin first, he can harpoon your guy along with his courtier from other locations (like home or other battlefield) to his battlefield.
yeah but the attacker would, very likely, choose to resolve the other battle first.
Yeah, thanks. My doubt was linked to the situation where a province with just defenders assigned had to resolved too
Hello guys, question with this guy. Ninube Tsukao. If he targets a personality with weapons and force bonuses, if it actually has 15 force at the moment, does Tsukao gets 15 force permanently?
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Yes.
Note Tsukau does not say "printed" or "base" Force.
Yup. Can be used to get 1000F and spirit keyword then goes to gain 1000 honor with ancient knowledge
following up on EE and the Rule of Presence. What about Guided by Honor? can it be used in a battlefield where there are only enemy units?
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could ask the same about Courage of the Mantis
Yes. Moving a unit to the current battlefield is an exception to Presence (and Location for the initial targeting).