[OBH] Seppun Toshiaki: Do you get to draw a card because he entered play? It says after it enters play, so it makes me think yes?
Sun and Moon #rules-questions
Messages from the Sun and Moon #rules-questions Discord channel, copied for Oracle of the Void. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings and the rulebooks may differ.
Yes, you can.
Thank you!
[OBH] His Unit has 0F (I Black Hearted it), and my Unit does not contribute to the army due to Hyotaru's ability. What happens during resolution? It's not 0F vs 0F, but 0F vs nil force.
There is no distinction or priority between those two states. Battle is a tie.
To elaborate further, the only distinction would be if either army contains no units. Then, the other army would not be destroyed even if it had 0F (i.e. 0F, BlackHeart'd v. 0F, empty army). But in your scenario (0F, BlackHeart'd v. 0F, not contributing), there are units on both sides, so they are both destroyed.
Gotcha. Fair.
And both sides get 1 honor per opposing card destroyed instead of 2, if I'm not mistaken...
no, in 20F you gain 2 even for tie
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2 honor
that was change in 20F
ShE - Can this target an unbowed holding?
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I think it can
You can straighten a straightened card but You cant bow a bowed card
I just want to make sure for future tournies
Yes, it can.
and beer goes to Brooks!
That's not exactly true, and not true at all in a vacuum.
If it's a cost, you can't pay it, but if it's an effect, you can bow a bowed card as many times as needed.
oh yeah true,
I mean if You losing it you can do it ig you gaining You cant (in shoirt my thought line) xD
By the power of technicalities!
ShE - With floating gold, does it last until end of turn? or does it dissipate each phase?
I forget
Phase.
thank you
ShE - If a holding bows for gold, if it then unbows, can it be bowed for gold again?
Yep.
Thank you
I thought this was a no when we talked about way of the crab and fortifications??
Way of the Crab prevents the Holding it straightens from bowing again that turn.
Oh okay. That makes sense. Forgot about that. thank you!
[OBH] Dashmar vs Shadowlands boxes and/or The Iron Citadel. Providing I have Dashmar legally in play, and have 40 or more Family Honour, which wins out?
Dashmar.
Kind of a silly question? The original Naga Stronghold has the same restriction as Shadowlands boxes and The Iron Citadel. Dashmar was built to get around it.
Sweet. Imperial Palace of Fu Leng honour runner, here we go!
Well, not really. Because he wouldn't join Scorpion, and, well, Naga is Naga, doesn't count.
But The Imperial Palace of Fu Leng would be able to get him out, then cast The Iron Citadel so I can start gaining honour, then use him to win. Maybe via Plans Within Plans, for the flair.
I was thinking of it from an older perspective, where SL was always at -19, so no go, and forgot about the OG Naga box not being able to win.
It's such a bad box I completely forgot it exists.
Their second Stronghold was lightyears worth of tiers higher, yep.
I will also point out that winning with Dashmar's ability is not an "Honor Victory". Looks like one, but nope; it's just winning with Dashmar's effect, like winning with "The Darkest Magics" or other such. So, for example, Shoju Sensei can't stop it.
Dang. So it wouldn't be considered an honour runner deck then.
Womp womp.
You are technically correct, which is the best kind of correct.
Good lord this would take an eternity
Imperial palace has the trait "you will not bring non-shadowlands personalities into play"
Right, but The Iron Citadel wipes that away.
And leaves my FH at 15.
There's also Regions and other jank that'll make Personalities Shadowlands before they enter play.
I was following that but in your post you said get him out and then cast iron citadel like you missed that part.
Playing ways to get him shadowlands in province would work tho.
Yeah, fair, I swapped the order.
Seems like a lot of hoops to jump for a faux honor victory...
That's part of the appeal.
As a theoretical exercise, sure. I just think it will be to janky to pull off consistently.
Answers on: Kolat Chambers
[OBH] I just noticed on oracle that Kolat Chambers has the cost of bowing removed from its second ability. Is this intended or accidental?
Certainly typo. Fixed!
[OBH] Can Shadowlands use Moetechi's ability? The current wording implies the honour loss is a cost to using its ability.
Emperor Edition: if a personality is bowed, do unbowed followers contribute their force? I assume equipment doesn't
second question: can you attach spells during action phase, or only as battle actions? my interpretation of rules is the latter option.
Attaching Spells is Limited/Battle in Emperor
I believe the current Oracle wording is correct, so indeed, SLH players could not use the ability. Note that in the original printing/wording, the Honor loss is paired together in the same opening sentence as the bowing of Moetechi, so I think that means they were both costs/conditions upon the later effects.
So far I know, unbowed followers contribute their force even if the personality is bowed
Yes, unbowed Followers do contribute regardless of the Personality's bowed status. In past Editions, they did not; I don't recall exactly which was the Edition in which it changed. And you are correct, Items (the proper term for "equipment") almost always directly contribute their Force as modifications directly to the Personality, so their bowed/unbowed status doesn't matter in army totaling, only the Personality and Followers.
Your interpretation is incorrect, and a player 's previous answer to you above is an oversimplification that doesn't explain the greater nuance.
The Limited "Equip" ability can equip any attachment: Followers, Items, and/or Spells. The special Battle Equip ability is a separate player ability that is only for Spells, but carries other restrictions and benefits.
thanks!
Kukanchi Moetechi goated
[Any] Emperor's Under-Hand: The OG text has the 1 honour loss as an effect after its ability is used. The new wording makes it a cost, meaning SL can't use it. Is that intentional?
Yeah, I noticed that, and that one is trickier than Moetechi. I reworded the Underhand over 10 years ago, and at the time, I feel like I found precedent for the Honor loss being a cost, but I can't find it anymore. I haven't scoured all of Kempy's FAQs yet, though. May try tomorrow? Going to sleep now, though.
All good, not important. Sleep well! 🙂
[OBH] question with this one> "Battle/Open, w: Bow or straighten a target Personality at this location with no attached cards." , could actually bow as open? I would think "this location" my "home" is not the same as the opponent, but want to make sure. thanks!
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No, you can't bow another player's Personality as an Open, for the reason you state; your Home is not the same location as another player's Home.
Thanks!
[OBH] if evil portents is played as a battle action. Does it still affect all personalities in play or just at the battle?
In play.
[CE] Does the reaction from this card negate the honor gain from Impromptu duel if i refuse the duel?
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Answers on: Impromptu Duel
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Yes.
[CE] Does the honor requirement increase apply to both players?
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Yes. But its active only until end of current turn.
(obh) do you still gain honor when you destroy cards in a battle resolution where you were the defender ?
( or was is a gold edition rule ? )
i think its true in all editions.
Always, every Edition.
ok
only change that happenned in latest ruleset (and it also in obh) you gain 2 honor per card even if there's a tie.
( obh ) and do token disappear at the end of your turn when the creation action does not specify "permanent"
no, created cards and tokens are permanent
Or rather, they're "instant"; they have no duration. They just "are" until something makes them "not be".
( example is the monastery of new thought that creates token as a limited action )
Answers on: Monastery of New Thought
Right. The creation of a thing (card or token) has no fixed duration; other examples of "instant" effects are bowing, dishonoring, destruction. Such things are not technically "permanent"; they simply "are" until another effect "undoes" them.
Sorry if I'm confusing the issue. The point is, no, tokens do not go away on their own.
ok i get it, they do not have a "permanent" tag, wich means they can be destroyed
but do not disappear on they own
Most of the strategies and actions that create tokens will specify if the token will leave play at the end of the turn
More or less; "permanent" is just shorthand for "ongoing until the end of the game". Whereas any other ongoing effect has a default duration "until the end of the turn". Other ongoing effects may be explicitly shorter such as, "Give a target +3F until the combat segment ends" or similar.
now i'm confused
An "ongoing" effect is a different type of effect than an "instant" effect. Creating a token is "instant", not "ongoing".
which part are you confused?
ah no i'm ok, a token is not created via an ongoing action, so it lasts after the end of the turn
if a stronghold says " battle : give +2F to a target perso. " it lasts until the end of the turn ( or the battle )
i would assume after the end of the battle actually
a lot of times till end of battle
If it literally says this and nothing else, it's until the end of turn by default.
i'm not confuses
It would have to say that explicitly.
it is clear
So, tokens work different than bonus and penalties?
I will have to keep that in mind then
a little yes
Yeah, it depends how you mean "differently", and Kairok is correct that the difference is "little". 🙂
Well, being "permanent" compared to lasting until the end of the turn is not something small, imo 🤔
[OBH] So, the tokens she creates are also "permanent"?
[attachment: Sin_titulo.jpg]
yes
Oh, ok. I had put that difference out of my head since we already covered it extensively and thought you were moving on to other aspects, in which the differences between the actually conferring of the bonuses/penalties are minimally different.
@Brook Cunningham and what about my question regarding the personality?
Which where? You mean Mina's tokens? Kairok was (mostly) correct when they answered "yes".
see my above distinctions about "permanent" versus "instant"
I didn't see Kairok's reply... my bad
[CE] Does the personality have to be dishonorable in order to gain the honor?
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Required targeting of the action is one or more dishonorable Personalities. They must be so to even legally announce the action.
Oh you are right, didnt read it well mb, thx
Bishamon's tower text: "Battle: Target your performing Berserker or unbowed Personality. Destroy a target enemy card with lower Force and no attachments.". It does not say so explicitly, but can the berserker be bowed?
yes
anything other than a beserker has to be unbowed
thanks, also it says nothing about battlefield presence, must both performer and target be in the same battlefield?
yes
EE: can imperial favor be lobbied/used more than once per turn?
Rulebook Favor abilities are once per turn.
So in Emperor you may use those abilties once per turn (each).
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[OBH] Is Bloodsword considered a "Sword", for the purposes of Daigotsu Onita?
Bloodsword isnt Sword
The trait is "weapon"
being sword and other things that's different
So it literally has "sword" in it, but it's not a Sword. Okay.
Onisu are also not Oni.
There are items that have the keyword Weapon and Sword. Bloodsword only has Weapon
Looking at the results I get when searching for "Sword" as a keyword, I think this is discriminatory against Bloodswords.
Didn't it used to be that if a card had the word in the title, it was considered as such?
On oracle it has Weapon and Bloodsword as keywords.
Exactly. Also Sword as non-mechanical keyword was introduced in Ivory and Onita (also Ivory) is a Personality that gains from it.
But probably all oldies from "fu" rule eras with "sword" (not bloodsword) in name should have sword keyword as well like Celestial/Ancestral ones.
On the other hand there are so few Personalities that gain from Sword keyword like Onita and Daitsu exp. So probably not worthy to change it. Oracle shows me only those two.
what is the "fu" rule era ? or when was it ? i think i remenber vaguely that rule quoted by Ikkuhyu, though i do not recall how old it is, and when it ceased to be
Keyword inheritance from title could maybe be argued if it were a " Blood Sword", but it is a Bloodsword, which if memory serves is a set of 4 nemuranai crafted by Yajinden upon the Anvil of Despair, that just coincidentally happen to be shaped like swords and usable like sword and I can't keep going this is getting silly
The "foo" Rule was a way of stating keyword Rules, that if a card had "foo" (as a made-up, not real example) anywhere in its title or boldface traits (what keywords used to be called; like Strategies used to be called Action cards), then it was considered a "foo" card for things that looked for "foo" cards. I believe they stopped using the "foo" example in Gold or later, and in Samurai Edition, they removed a lot of ambiguity by making keywords not come from titles and always be separated by bullets and inseparable within those bullets.
Thus, a pre-Samurai card that was titled "Jim the Assassin" and had boldface traits "Scorpion Clan Ninja (dot) Disciple of the Kami (dot) Brain Eater" would by the "foo" Rule be an Assassin, Scorpion Clan, Ninja, Disciple, Kami, Brain, and/or Eater card. A post Samurai MRP (or Oracle version) of him would have the printed keywords "Scorpion Clan (dot) Assassin (dot) Ninja (dot) Disciple (dot) Kami (dot) Brain Eater". Note that this would mean he would only be a "Brain Eater" card, not a Brain card and an Eater card like under previous Rules, but it wouldn't matter because those are just flavor and not relevant to interaction with any other cards. Also note that in neither case, pre or post "foo", were compound words separable. An Onisu was not an Oni, a Basecamp was not a base or a camp, and a Marketplace was neither a market nor a place.
Final sidenote: There was briefly a "Foo of Bar" Rule along with the "Foo" Rule; it stated that words in boldface traits after "of" didn't count, so a "Foo of Bar" card was a Foo card but not a Bar card. Under that Rule, in my example above, Jim would not have been a Kami. This was because they messed up and printed Mikaru,"Hunter of Nagas" in Anvil of Despair who was duh, not a Naga himself. "Foo of Bar" was deemed too complicated/confusing shortly after it was made and they instead dropped it and errata'd Mikaru. 😛
EE, Ronin Ambushers: "After this card bows: Straighten it and, if you do not control a Terrain, negate its (future) straightening until the phase ends.". I am not sure I understand the final part. Does it mean that, if you don't control a terrain, the follower will only apply the straightening effect once, but if you control a terrain, they straighten every time?
Answers on: Ronin Ambushers
Mostly yes.
If the trait ever triggers at a time you don't control a Terrain, it will cease "working" thereafter for the remainder of the phase.
I wonder if "negate its (future) straightening" would also prevent any other source of straightening during the battle phase
Yes, yes it would.
okay, thanks, I am glad I can still understand some cards
Except none of the ancestral/celestial swords have the sword keyword on oracle. It feels a bit as if we're taking the rules too literally when we say that all those swords aren't swords, even though it has only minor impact on the game. If it quacks like a duck and looks like a duck...
Well, those are technically Swords, they just haven't been properly updated in the Oracle because when I did, I forgot about those two ridiculous edge cases Onita and Daitsu. 😛
Except any card with Sword in its title from Samurai onwards that doesn't also have the keyword isn't.
Maybe it should be...
If it is a sword obviously, not some card like Swordmaster
I mean, it wouldn've been great if whoever designed Onita and Daitsu cared about broader consistency, but no.
Yes, beats me why that isn't just listed as weapon...
Or Kakita's "The Sword"... which is a Sword, technically.
For as little as their abilities/traits do...
Yeah, good old 20F. I was not going to win a lot of Legacy/Oracle fights in that era. The whole one-handed/two-handed thing kind of made me give up on Item keyword consistency as a whole; probably another reason I didn't rush to retrofit "Sword" onto pre-SE cards that should technically have it.
The easy solution would be to errata Onita and Daitsu...
Haha. There is no easy solution. 🙂 But it's kind of you to offer an idea.
Doesn't turning their references to sword into reference to weapon solve the issue? (Checking r/n if there are any other references)
But they're only supposed to work with Sword Weapons, not any Weapon.
No all the other Sword references refer to specific weapons
A +1F/+1C and a straighten ability on a Kensai who can only carry one weapon... who's to say what they meant other than flavor...
Them being the only 2 cards in the entire cardpool refering to swords specifically makes them the outliers...
I suppose, yes, it would be the "easiest" thing to do. Just change those 2 to remove them caring about "sword" specifically so that it becomes not a relevant keyword at all. shrug
If it were more cards, I'd be on the fence about it, but at this point it's just some design fluke. Maybe they intended to do more with it, but they never did.
So let practicality rule us 😉
There are others in a similar if not the same vein, though. Lest we forget, Tetsuo Exp 2 gives a specific sh about "polearms".
yeah, same treatment imo
So, it's bit of a mess regardless if we're looking for consistency, and I refer you all the way back to one and two handed.
Unless that is meant to refer to Tetsuo's Nagimaki and the designer forgot or didn't know the name of the card...
There are 8 polearm weapons. He works with all of them.
There are also 8 Mantis cards that interact specifically with peasant weapons, of which there are 5.
Just saying, it goes a bit beyond Onita and Daitsu.
So 11 cards in all... Maybe we could have a community vote on keeping these specifics or just changing them all to instances of Weapon.
I mean, what's the point of having self-regulatory abilities, if we're not gonna self regulate?
Also in the category consistency: Poison Dartgun isn't a Weapon, but Blowdarts is... 🙄
Answers on: Poison Dartgun, Blowdarts
Poison dartgun has a better PR manager.
At least they are both Ninja
I can hear the Ninja Review Association now: Dartguns don't kill people, Blowdarts do...
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it goes even further beyond: Volcano is a Region which reduces the cost for Obsidian items by 4. It's Jade-strict-bugged. There were no Jade-legal Obsidian Items, there were 3 printed during IE, meaning JadeEx legal , and there were 5 more printed across the game's history (not counting reprints) after it stopped being legal for deck construction.
and if you think that's neat: Suzume Sensei, another Jade card, which gives Sparrow Clan Personalities your Clan Alignment, applied to 2 contemporary cards, and there wasn't another until all the way in Emperor, as part of the Coils of Madness "minor clans in clan alignment" series of cards, where it was one unique
I would leave it as it is now (onita and daitsu). they were directly designed to interact with cards from their era only.
Conceptually, I'd argue that "Weapon" should have subtypes, such as Sharp, Blunt, Ranged, etc.
Same thing as a unicorn having a horse in the picture and not cavalry
EE, very silly question: why Border Keep is two sided? in what cases should the side without Limited actions be used?
Answers on: Border Keep
Since the second Limited is once per game, flipping it over is a nice physical reminder that you've used it up. And the first Limited is only usable on your first turn, so whenever you do use the second, that one should already be "gone" by then as well, hence them both being absent on the "reminder" side.
EE: if text on the card doesn't state anything, can I choose a bowed personality as its performer? I thought I couldn't, but "Fall back" is making me doubt
Yes, if it doesn't specifically ask you to choose an unbowed performer, you can choose a bowed one.
EE, Back to the Front. Can the performin personality be home? it doesn't state so explicitly, but otherwise it'd be useless, I think
Answers on: Back to the Front
in other words: can a battle action be performed by a personality not in the current battlefield?
So, the text on Oracle of the Void is admittedly not all fully updated, but in this case, you could find your answers specifically about BttF there.
That said, yes, you can. Under EE Rules, an action that moves a Personality to the current battlefield is an exception to the Rules of both Presence and Location, unlike in Ivory+ where those exceptions would be explicit.
EDIT: Hrm. I do see now that the Oracle text is a MRP rather than an update, but the principle is largely the same. 🙂
[OBH Legacy] In this format, the personality I choose must have been previously assigned to the current battlefield, right? If the personality was not assigned in the first place it would not be a legal target, am I correct?
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In any format, yes. The "who assigned to this [meaning the current] battlefield" is a requirement of the targeting, and exists on all formats' printings in various forms.
ahhh interesting
now it makes sense. Now a completely different rules question. Were there any side deck rules in the kotei competitions? I know the official rules don't mention it
No. No sideboarding/deck swapping in big sanctioned events like Kotei.
that's interesting! I like it
and I guess it's harder to simply replace a few cards in L5R than it is in simpler card games
Well, most rounds were also 1 of 1 Swiss pairings, until you got to sometimes have best of 3 games in the Semis or Finals, so swapping out meta like a MtG sideboard wasn't beneficial, and by the time you got to the end/highest echelons, your deck had to sink or swim on its own. Some silver bullet meta existed at times, but it had to be a choice throughout if you wanted to risk it.
[OBH] This is more of a curiosity than a rule. Can you do the first turn province flip even if you are not Border Keep. I know from Ivory forward it is a rule book effect. Wondering if the rule book effect applies in OBH.
As I understand, because OBH uses BK, they specifically and intentionally removed the Ivory Cycle from their list of player abilities.
Thank you
EE. Can I bow a holding and produce gold to pay for a 0 cost card? Or even if I am not playing any card? Thanks
Yes and no respectively.
[OBH] Naga Storm Mirumotos Mountain vs multiple Broad Front. For example from province A to B and From C to B. Can I choose the order? First A, second B (fails due NSMM effect), then C and B again. A, B and C will be destroyed, no?
Answers on: Broad Front
Yep, that all seems to check out, as long as you're the active player and not 2x Broad Fronting on a Counterattack.
[OBH] How does At'tok'tuk sensei interact with loyal keyword? does a loyal rat mean it can only join a rat player? or bc rats are a part of my clan i can bring a loyal rat into play with a scorpion box? Also Towers of yogo gives all my scorpion personalities the ability bow to bow. Do all my rats gain that ability? or are they ratling personalities with scorpion caln alignment?
Answers on: At'tok'tuk Sensei
The Sensei gives all your Ratling Personalities in and out of play your Clan Alignment. Loyal Peronalities will only join a player who has the same Clan Alignment they do; a Loyal Ratling with Scorpion Clan will join a Scorpion Clan player. The Towers of the Yogo grants an ability to all your Scorpion Clan Personalities; if your Ratling Personalties have that Clan Alignment, the Stronghold gives them that ability too.
I hope the above answers all your questions? They were a little hard to follow; your last two seem to ask an "either/or" question, but both things are true. :/
yes you answered everything. sorry i was having trouble articulating exactly what i was after but you cleared up my confusion perfectly
{OBH} inheritance stays in the province with yokuni sensei? does itn ot refill if its destroyed?
Answers on: Yokuni Sensei
Inheritance is... weird. Its talk of "destroying" itself seems to imply it "enters play" in some manner, but it doesn't explicitly do that; basically, it doesn't mesh with how other Events of the time resolve and affect play. So, its Oracle text instead makes it make more sense, and thus does make it vulnerable to "sticking" in the Province via Yokuni Sensei, which also agrees with contemporary rulings about their interaction specifically.
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^yep; bullet 3 specifically
thank you
[OBH] Shamate Keep and Broken Sword of the Lion -> when sword enters play my Lion Paragons still have Force and Chi bonuses equal to their base PH?
[attachment: 493086945_9631383536950382_8038812637830258236_n.png] [attachment: printing_6691_1_details.png]
Dishonor applies a maximum of 0 to PH, this maximum is removed from your Paragons with Shamate Keep, therefore with Broken Sword of the Lion on the board, your Lion Paragons gain its Force and Chi bonus equal to their current PH regardless of if they're dishonorable or not
Answers on: Shamate Keep, Broken Sword of the Lion
Assuming it's just these 2 cards involved, that bonus is equal to base PH, anything that would affect PH would affect that bonus as well
Whether that bonus is their base or not depends on any other potential modifications, because the bonus is equal to current, but the maximum of 0 from dishonor is not part of the equation thanks to the Stronghold trait.
Ah; Marcus wrote the second part of his post above simultaneously with mine, which says the same thing.
For example, an item such as Ritual Armor, which increases PH by 1, would increase the bonus from Broken Sword of the Lion by an additional 1 on top of the bonus from base PH
[OBH] after revealing strongholds i search for a ring at the beginning of the game. at that point. is Otomo sensei active already?
for a current tournament match
The fortified monastery of the dragon vs otomo sensei
players haven't drawn fate cards at that point
i see
thanks
[CE] Does this type of cards are unique? meaning, only one of this kind of cards can be in play? i cant find anything in the celestial pdf rulebook
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these showed up in Path of the Destroyer, the second CE set. They should be properly described in the CE15 rulebook.
It's Unique if it has the keyword; it's not if it doesn't. But Celestials operate by special Rules about how they enter and stay in play; Andra is correct above, but you could also check the Emperor Edition Rules. Celestials were in that Edition too, and nothing changed about them.
ok ill search the EE rules to see if it clarify it
thx both
by kind i mean the celestial, not another copy of the same card btw
I got that impression
EE: Hida's Guidance. Can the Battle action be used without presence in the battlefield? since it doesn't require a performing personality. My guess is it can't
Answers on: Hida's Guidance
No, you can't use it without Presence.
EDIT: To elaborate, not having a performer is not an implicit exception to Presence; such a thing will be explicit. See "Indomitable Home".
You need an army with more force that the defender province
Wrong one. David asked EE, not CE.
Good catch! I misread the edition
EE: Retribution. "Reaction: After the end of an Attack Phase in which you were the Defender: Declare an additional Attack Phase against that phase's Attacker, in which neither player may invite allies and you may only assign one Personality. Give the Personality and each Follower in his unit +1F after he assigns.".
Question is: can I assign to defend a personality that already defended in the attack phase that just ended? since rules state that they remain in the battlefield
but being a different phase, I assume I can. Otherwise, card becomes far less useful
I don't have the Rules handy, but I'm pretty sure while it does say that Defenders stay at battlefields after their individual resolutions, it also says all go home after the Attack Phase is over, esp. because all the battlefields cease to exist at that time too, so any unbowed one of them would be assignable in the Retribution-created Attack Phase.
I take it you mean "assign to attack" since the card is giving you a counterattack, and your Personality might have previously been a defender
yes sorry
Yes, you remember well on both accounts, just checked. I ask because the way the rules are written, they seem to try to avoid a personality to be at two resolutions in the same turn, but I understand this card intends to be an exception
Two resolutions in the same phase, as an Attacker; commonly known as the "no second battle" Rule. So, different from your scenario in two important ways.
He can correct me if I'm wrong, I can't check right now myself, but I do believe a Personality can't be at 2 different combat resolutions during one combat phase as an attacker
Meaning technically, using movement actions, you can defend multiple provinces with the same guy, whereas on your counterattack via Retribution, your opponent's Personalities can, if unbowed, be assigned as defenders, or if bowed be moved in as defenders, primarily because it's a new attack phase, and because they're not attackers
Beat you to it; see above. 🙂 But yes, an even more thorough explanation and all correct.
Thoroughness needs time, otherwise I'd have beat you to it instead 🙂
I am glad I "get" the rules enough to be able to illustrate a response to your satisfaction
Thanks for the clarifications
EE again. "After Yuka performs a Political action: Give her +3C until it ends." I assume she already has the +3C while said political action is resolved
my assumption is she gains the bonus right as soon as she is selected as performing personality
Right.
this rules-interpretation game is almost as fun as the actual game
EE: I assume Conquest and Proclaim are not repeatable, correct?
Correct.
They would explicitly say if they were other than Once Per Turn.
just realized Naval Invasion, also a reaction, does exactly that, explicitly saying once per battle. Should have noticed
[OBH] Naval is one per battle (instead of one per turn) according to the documents. So unlike Ivory+, in OBH if I have assigned units to 2+ provinces, I can declare Naval in each one of them, right?
[OBH] Does the same go for Cavalry in case I have chosen Ivory+ Cavalry Mode?
yes
It's not so much "declaring Naval" as it is using the Naval "Engage" player ability, but yes, in OBH, it is once per battle.
No. The Cavalry player ability, even in OBH, has no explicit exception to default Once Per Turn for abilities.
I see, thanks!
Isn't calvary in Ivory once?
Per Turn? Yes.
Ok I see the confusion I was answering the Calvary part not the naval part.
EE: is there any rule of mechanic about shuffling decks? I assume they can't be shuffled "at will"
I mean, during the game, of course
After shuffling for initial setup, there is no mechanic to induce shuffling a deck other than after searching a card from within it. I don't have the Rules handy, but if there's nothing explicit about it, I would reason that implicitly, you can't just change the game state whenever you like. That may be crossing over into the realm of Tournament/Floor versus Game Rules, though.
After giving it a little thought, I would assume the design intent is that it should not be allowed, considering the Border Keep effect seems to count on placing cards at the bottom of the Dinasty Deck, rather than discarding or reshuffling.
very few instances that require you to shuffle the deck once the game have started
Yeah, as I said, a search triggers a reshuffle per the Rules. There aren't any other mechanics (and very few card effects) that would cause a reshuffle otherwise, and as a player concluded, doing so is not voluntary at will.
[ShE] Can personalities attach more than 1 1handed weapon?
Personalities can only attach 1 weapon. Kensai Personalities may attach 2, but only if they're both one-handed.
Follow up question... then why there are some weapons that indicate that are one-handed if the personality is Berserker?
What card specifically?
This one
[attachment: Sin_titulo.jpg]
In case they become Kensai Berserkers?
While I could say that it opened a potential avenue for such a design as One-Us suggested, sometimes mechanical things are also just there for a bit of flavor. 🙂 If this guy is gonna go Berserker on the Shadowlands, he's gonna do it swingin' around a no-dachi with one hand! Wooo! 🙂
🤣
There's a Crab Berserker guy can use 2 off those LOL
in a weird case were you would use a stronghold that enables your samurai to be kensai ( dragon ? ) he/she could yield the jade no dachi and another blade...
a kensai berserker deck... would be as futile as funny
hmm wrong idea. they have to be dragon clan
Throw in Dead Eyes. Dragon Berserker! 🙂
Alliance
Although, I should also point out that Shiro Mirumoto just lets you attach 2 Weapons regardless, and doesn't interact with/give Kensai, so one/two-handed is irrelevant.
(obh) war torn plains : before battle resolution, if you have fewer units... they get +2F. But when does the +2F occurs ? is it just before resolution calculation ? or does it happen when you have fewer units ? i have an idea, but the wording can lead to discussion
oh yes dead eyes.. expensive solution but well... could surprise the opponent !
[ShE] : When i use the fear effect from SH "The Dark Capital of the Spider" and target my personality is he then the performer of the fear effect with regard to combining this fear effect with other cards from his unit? Or can i only combine that SH fear effect with courage cards ?
Answers on: The Dark Capital of the Spider
Right before Battle Resolution step.
The concept of/rules for "performing" were removed in Ivory Edition and have not returned since. The Fear from the Stronghold ability is not from any card in a unit, so it cannot be combined.
You pass opponent pass (this is where before resolution comes into play) War Torn Plains applies it's effect
[OBH] does Plague of Locust hits BK or BH? Do those Holdings "enter play for free" as you start a game with them?
@Brook Cunningham
from EE CR: while setup
"C. Each player who is not going first also starts with a Bamboo Harvesters holding in play and bowed. The player who is going first does not include Bamboo Harvesters in his or her deck."
I thinknis different start in play that bring to play
Like senseis
Disrupting Communication: "Battle: Bow your performing Scout and target an enemy card: Bow it. ...". I believe you need to choose an unbowed scout, because the "bow" reference is before the ":", correct?
Emperor Edition, sorry
Yes unbowed scout
what about Headbutt?
Answers on: Headbutt
can a bowed berserket be the performer?
[attachment: printing_3010_1_details.png]
yes
btw please add [format] to your questions
sorry. However, the "bow him" is also before the ":", so why Disrupting Communications can't be performed by a bowed scout then?
there's no second colon in Headbutt
theres Battle: and effects
in Discrupting you have Battle: costs : effects
there's a second colo though, near the end
colon
ah, you are right
but still text of Headbutt doesn;t require unbowed Berskerer if he enter play game this combat segment
so there's conditional cost of bowing only in this case
so, if I have a bowed berserker that was in play when phase began, can he be the performer?
I messed up and read it wrong - it works other way - if he didn;t enter play this battle (like from Will) there's cost of bowing him
So if you have a Berserker that was assigned to battlefield, he can't perform this card while bowed.
But if you bring into play Berserker during Combat Segment, he may perform it while bowed
Ok, i found answer. BK and BH are starting Holdings, while game starts later at the end of setup. So both don't "enter play" and are also immune to Plague.
[EE] Disgraceful Conduct: "Battle: Even if you control no units at the current battlefield, pay Gold equal to a target Personality or unit's total Gold cost minus 4: Bow it.". I am not sure which cost applies here. Is it target personality, or unit's total, at player's choice, then minus 4? or the minus 4 is applied to the unit's cost? and what is bowed, the personality, or the unit?
[EE] Determined Challenge: "Battle: Target your unbowed attacking Personality. Move a target enemy Personality at any location to the current battlefield. Straighten him as he moves.". I understand the effect, but why are you asked to "target" one of your personalities, instead of calling it "performing"? does your own personality move too?
If you pay target Personality GC-4, you bow the target Personality. If you pay target unit total GC-4, you bow the target unit
I believe these cards could have been written more clearly 😅
the Seeds of Decay version, which was released during Emperor, does state it as "Choose your performing unbowed [...]" The version you're probably looking at is the Ivory Edition reprint, where they changed the wording of cards to no longer state "performing" and instead be "your target" or a variation thereof, as what you're seeing there
You can always double-check a card on oracleofthevoid.com where you can look at earlier printings of the same card
thanks!!!
[ShE] Just to confirm, this card let you apply the +1f bonus JUST 1 time right? its repeteable?
[attachment: image.png]
Meaning, if you take the wording literally, you pay 2 gold and X number of times you give +1F with 1 battle action
You use the action once for a +1F bonus. Each use of the action only gives +1F. You can declare the action up to X times, where X is the number of your Retainers.
Thx, thats what i though. I got a little confused by the wording thats all
[ShE] Also, is this up to date? -- > Dynasty(), : Remove a card in your hand from the game to search your deck and Provinces for a Legacy Holding and Recruit it. If you fail to nd one, you lose the game.
Incorrect: You search your facedown provinces and your deck for a Legacy card and put it face-up in a Province, discarding the card in the Province. If you fail to find one, you lose the game
After that, you can Recruit the card as normal, or play it if it's an Event. If you find it in a Province, you don't discard it if you place it face-up in that same Province.
[ShE] If a range attack targets an item (let's say it is an armor) do you use the Force modifier to compare or you assume that item's force is 0?
The item's force is the multiplier example +2 Armor that item's force is 2. Items with no multiplier are considered 0 Force
Ok, got it, thanks
[ShE] If a duel ends up in a tie, both personalities are considered losers?
If there are no other effects yes
Ok, thanks!!
[ShE] Can the range attack of Isawa Hinata target a personality with followers? The ignoring normal range attack targeting suggests that, imo...
[attachment: Sin_titulo.jpg]
Answers on: Isawa Hinata
The way that is worded it would be able to target personalities with followers
Yep, Kairok is correct.
@Brook Cunningham Got it, thanks!!!
[attachment: IMG-20250516-WA0002.jpg]
2 questions with Hasaiki
If the oponent only defends with 1 persobality. Can I bow him and use the range in the oni?
Who performs the range? The oponents personality or the oni?
@Brook Cunningham or anyone Any suggestions?
Last question. Could I tsrget the same personality for the range? It never says the target has to be other
This is under diamond rules
target a personality, target a legal target for the range ( i would say by defaut the personality is a legal target for the range if you have none other ) bow the first target, range the second with strenght = 1rst target's force. the range comes from this card ( the oni )
and even though you would have other targets, the personality still is a legal target for the range !
I'm pretty sure even under Diamond Rules, "target a X and target a Y" means X and Y have to be different things. And the Oni is performing/producing the RA, so this is where my DE knowledge is less certain. I don't think you can target a friendly card with a RA, but check the DE Rulebook. If you can't, then neither suggested scenario work, and the Oni's ability is unusable against a lone defender.
Thanks for the answers guys
[LE] [CE]¨
Hi, I have a question: Do followers still add to combat resolution if the personality they are attached to is bowed? The question is for both Lotus and Celestial, which are the editions we are playing.
Depends on the Format/Ruleset. In OBH Legacy/Ivory+20F/Onyx+ShatteredEmpire, yes they do if they are unbowed.
Please add to your post what edition or format you are asking for.
(link)
Fixed
Thanks. Next time please add this at the beginning of the post like
[LE] [CE] etc.
Yes. They do in CE.
They do not in LE. If the Personality is bowed, no cards in the unit count and the unit's Force is 0 (LE Rulebook, top of pg 40).
and what happend in samurai edition
?
That is the Edition when it changed; SE is the same as CE.
BTW, did you know all Editions' Rulebooks are in a Dropbox link that is pinned in this Discord's #welcome channel? 🙂
Wow, thx 4 the info
NP! Just thought I'd mention, since that's where I went to get those answers. The old brain doesn't hold it all like it used to. 😛
[EE] Bayushi Tenzan: "Battle/Limited: Target a Personality, or one or two Personalities if you control a Courtier: You may target a Shadowlands Personality. Give each target -3F. If this is the Combat Segment, dishonor them.". I don't understand the explicit line about shadowlands personalities, can't they be targeted normally?
You can target an additional personality if the second (third if you control a courtier) is Shadowlands.
Yeah the shadowlands guy is a third guy
I designed this card by the way with the story team.
I was about to ask about your name lol
Yep Seth abraham here lol
okay so you can target one guy, plus one extra if you have a courtier, and another extra if it's shadowlands
Bingo David
He really hates shadowlands
His wife is a courtier and his companion on missions
Bayushi iyashi also a card
He also became the sorrow
It is amazing to have this kind of access to a game's designers, especially a game that has been commercially "extinct" for nearly a decade. Tells a lot about what an amazing game it is
I only designed those guys I won an auction
For charity
But happy to chime in. I loved the game a lot obviously
Fun trivia fact I actually pitched two other characters one was vetoed and the other one I just didn't pick
Vetoed-yogo oshio as he didn't fit the scorpion themes then
And daigotsu hoturi exp.
I decided on tenzan over hoturi.
As scorpion was my clan.
Hoturi would have been lip service for the vets since he was somehow alive
Actual full-time former AEG Designers are working on the fan-continuation "Onyx Lives" project.
They are and I'm happy they are doing it
Onyx lives is beautiful
A love letter to all of us that miss the game
I hope that the game can have a return as card game
Cool to read but continue such stuff in (link) and keep this thread for rules questions. Cheers.
[ShE] Does this card prevent straightening from other cards? or just the natural straightening phase?
[attachment: image.png]
From anything that would straighten them.
Question regarding Siege: Clan War According to the rules pamphlet, the Yogo Junzo player cannot lose honor. If they would lose honor from the Rokugani's card effects, the Rokugani players gain that many Political tokens instead.
The Rokugani players can lose honor as much as card effects cause them to, but should they gain any honor, they instead gain that many Political tokens. Implying that the Rokugani players cannot Gain honor.
Also, if you have a card with a higher honor requirement in your deck, and the Yogo Junzo player has never caused you an honor loss, you'd never be able to recruit them, because there's no way to meet their honor requirement.
I would take this to mean that we simply ignore honor all together, except that it does state that rulebook loss conditions such as starting your turn at -20 honor still apply. Implying that the Rokugani players can still lose honor, but offering them no way to Gain honor.
I feel this is rather incomplete, and could cause some rather cheesy and rules lawyery ways to win the game.
I think a "Better" solution would be to just say the Rokugani players gain and lose honor as normal, but when they Gain honor they also get political tokens.
But, a much simpler solution would be to just ignore Honor altogether, and say when the Rokugani players gain honor, they gain political tokens, and when they lose honor, they lose political tokens. That preserves losing honor as a real cost. And if we assume the Yogo Junzo player has the same restrictions as typical Shadowlands, as per the Shadowlands faction rules from the last time they were legal in the game, they can't cause unconditional honor losses anyway, so it all works out.
Answers on: Siege
Might look into this later more deeply, but to your very last point, I don't think the Enemy deck is open to/intended for any modifications. As I think you noted earlier, it doesn't contain any cards that cause Honor losses to the Rokugani players, so it being bound to old Shadowlands Faction Rules of not being allowed to do so would be irrelevant.
"The Siege player brings a pre-constructed Siege deck that ignores the normal deck construction rules."
It doesn't specifically say which pre-constructed deck... Assumptions could easily be made, but I feel like this just implies that the player playing the Siege deck should act kind of as a DM in D&D, trying to sculpt an experience, rather than outright win.
Answers on: Siege
but, yeah, I could see this going either way pretty easily.
definitely not "Bring the best possible deck you can" territory though.
I think the term "pre-constructed" means "by the game Designers". That's usually what it means.
"Constructed" = you built it "Pre-constructed" = it came packaged that way
So, yes, it doesn't specify which, but it would either be the Heart of Darkness Naga one or the Clan War Junzo one.
[ShE] [although could apply to other formats], if an action is negated, did it resolve? Specific scenario is Ring iof Air resolve 2 favor actions, Iweko's Shadow negating 1 favor action.
Actions still resolve, even if any of their effects are negated
[attachment: printing_12598_1_details.jpg]
alright. So, no ignoring honor requirements until then?
So, if you want to play a personality with a higher honor requirement than your starting honor, you just can't play them until you unlock the Throne Room?
Answers on: The Throne Room
Yes. In S:HoD it works same way, theres District that allows to ignore HR.
some of the Seven Thunders personalities have higher honor requirement than their stronghold starts with. If they show up in your provinces before you conquer Otosan Uchi, you just can't play them?
The Throne Room isn't "unlocked". It starts in play when the game starts, with its traits always active the whole game.
hmm... that is a lot of text. I'll have to make a player aid to make this reasonable to play.
I can do that though.
IIRC, the Territory cards were slightly oversized to be easier to reference. :/ YMMV shrug
even if it's larger, that's still A LOT of text with no bullet points.
I have the oversized versions, and they're not really big enough to make it reasonable to read from across the table. And you still have to keep 6 different territories worth of text in mind when playing the game.
Sure. Not trying to dissuade you from making further aids. Probably a good idea! 🙂
right. Just a question of how much I can do with less than a week left to prepare, when I've been procrastinating on even doing the deck building this entire time. I'm only really just getting into the weeds now. It is in fact, quite tempting to just use the preconstructed deck for the Shadowlands... except that I've currently taken the whole thing apart, so I'd have to find the deck list, or try to re-construct it based on the theming of the cards. I think that should be simple enough, but still....
I really do like the idea of unleashing a plague of zombies though. There were a bunch of undead monsters during the Clan Wars, and that allows me to focus the deck far more on Shugenja, which makes spells very relevant, and thus, cards like Hida Kisada (IE) are quite relevant, despite being power crept by the rest of the game.
I also feel like, so long as it's not Completely overwhelming, fighting a hoard of zombies can be a lot more fun, because you get the chance to play a lot more actions into killing them.
and of course, there are a few undead generals, and several Onis joining the fight as well. There's just also a bunch of Shugenja making more zombies happen.
I dunno, I think this'll be fine.
I hope.
I REALLY need to do a playtest though... which means I REALLY need to make sure these decks are Finished ASAP
I expect the people who would be joining this game are familiar with one era of L5R, but not more than one. Which means, I'll have to at least provide a cheat sheet for how all the rules work in Ivory/Onyx edition, including ALL the keywords.
I'll probably also cut a few things for simplicity's sake, because there's just too much that's too easy to forget. And if someone brings it up, then as the Game Master of the event, I might just allow it anyway. The rules get so messy when playing with multiple editions... especially when you cross between Pre-IvE and Post-IvE.
[EE] Help from the shadows: "Battle: Choose your performing Personality in a Ninja unit: Move him to the current battlefield. Straighten his unit if he moved." I don't quite understand the "in a ninja unit" part. Isn't it the same as "Choose your performing Ninja personality"? what is exactly a "Ninja unit"?
Answers on: Help from the Shadows
also [EE]: would an action that "negates destruction" work against a ranged attack that would kill your personality?
Yes
A "[X] unit" is a unit where the Personality and all Followers in the unit are [X]/have the [X] keyword, most commonly used when determining a "Cavalry unit for the Cavalry Rules. But, in this case, Help From the Shadows requires the performer's unit is a Ninja unit.
thanks
Ah, makes sense! thanks.
[OBH] : If i use "Take the Initative" to start first, do i still keep my "Bamboo Harvester" holding in play ?
I believe Take is on OBH's ban list?
yup, since we used the Jade Hand's ban list as a foundation
Yes, you are both right. Forgot to check that first 😅 . Thanks 👍...
If you want to play OBH with TtI legal, its Reaction triggers after both BK and BH are in play. So changing playing order won't have any input on those Holdings.
[ShE] Does the movement of my units from this response is considered as an action for the purpose of the Way of the Unicorn edict that lets me (once per turn) make an aditional action? and if so, since it is a response, can i take that action and then my regular action? furthermore, can i use Hideyo sensei ability to make another action aswell?
[attachment: image.png]
[attachment: image.png]
[attachment: image.png]
Since Responses are a type of action, it would trigger both the traits on the Edict (take an additional action) as well as the trait on the Sensei (give a Personality -2F, if the response moves 2 because at least 1 is a tactician, it triggers twice, since it checks for each Personality moved, not each action that moves)
The Response on the Sensei cannot be used because you can't Respond to a Response. If the original action which moved your Personality did move your Berserker to the current battlefield, you can use the Response to that action (which also triggers the Sensei trait). You can also use it in response to the additional action granted by the Edict IF it moves a Berserker to the current battlefield (which is another trigger to the Sensei trait).
Bear in mind that the Edict trait for an additional action can only be triggered once per turn, whereas the Sensei trigger has no such limitation.
Hope that's clear, if not, I can come up with an example to illustrate
Ahh i see, i just overlooked both sensei and striking tactics are responses, thx for the clarification mate
[ShE] 1) Can you response to an interrupt? In case you can, if Break Ranksmoved home the only personality I had in the battelfield, can I still use Striking Tactics response despite not having presence in the battlefield considering it is the same action???
[attachment: 0002.jpg] [attachment: 0001.jpg]
Answers on: Striking Tactics
Interrupts and Responses cannot be Interrupted or Responded to.
Combining range attacks doesn't work as chaining interrupts?
No. They are multiple Interrupts to the same original Battle action.
Ok, got it, thanks
[ShE] Can this spell be used to move a personality from another province to this one?
[attachment: image.png]
No, only from Home, per the keyword. If the action could be used anywhere, it would have the Remote keyword.
[EE] Shiro Chugo Stronghold. "Political Reaction: Before an action's resolution, choose your performing unbowed Courtier: Reduce any Honor gain or loss from the action's effects by 2." Question: can the reaction be triggered by Proclaim, which is itself a reaction?
I guess the question is also for Rhetoric, which has a very similar wording
As per page 85 of the EE rulebook, my understanding is yes.
[EE] sly deceiver copies the keywords on another personality, as well as base abilities. What happens if they copy a sensei, can then you have "two sensei" in play? the wording on sensei restriction is "After (personality name) enters play: discard all your other sensei personalities". Since the ninja-sensei is not entering play, I would think the restriction is never triggered, and you can have the sensei effects twice.
Answers on: Sly Deceiver
You are (more or less, give or take a few misuses of terminology) correct.
hmmm by reading carefully the Card Features chapter of comprehensive rules, it is relevant to point out that traits are not abilities, thus not copied by sly deceiver. It brings no benefit to copy the abilities from sensei then
Answers on: Sly Deceiver
Generally not, though a couple of them do have abilities. And yeah, sorry I didn't mention that Sly wouldn't even copy the "discard" triggered trait at all anyway.
[ShE] Is not exactly a rules question but; to play a legal ShE deck the only cards that can be in the deck are those that can be find in the Sun and Moon "Legal" filter: Shattered Empire right?
Correct. You can also verify this legality by the white bug found on ShE cards. I am curious what spurred this question.
I have a couple of "old" (old been a month or so) deck list and some of the cards are with the name in red, i guess it is because there werent ShE legal
[ShE] Im guessing not but need confirmation, is "transfering" and item considered equip it? for example, for the purpose of gaining honor when equip it
[attachment: image.png]
No, transferring =/= Equipping.
[OBH] - Moto Geheris - Does he allow Torrential Rain to happen?
Answers on: Torrential Rain
Nope
DAMMIT
Yes. "Action cards" are "Strategies"; read the Oracle text.
okay so i CAN activate Torrential Rain to end the battle?
I just didn't know if that counted as sending him home
or removing him
Torrential rain, ends the battle
Doesn't matter. Torrential Rain is not an Action card/Strategy; no interaction either way.
AH THANK YOU
What clan does "Vigilant Keep of the Monkey" count as? Is it Monkey, Toturi's Army, Unaligned, or something else?
[attachment: printing_9157_1_details.png] [attachment: printing_8671_1_details.png]
Toturi's Army. "Monkey Clan" is not a Faction/Clan Alignment
EDIT: I would be remiss if I didn't mention that an Optional Rule was introduced in Gold Edition that the "Monkey Clan" keyword could be considered equivalent to "Toturi's Army", but I'm not sure if any Legacy Formats officially adopted that? OBH might; not sure.
this is one annoying thing about the old strongholds, in that they had no clear indication of what clan they were
Do you use https://oracleofthevoid.com/ ?
yeah
are there rules somewhere that dictate that "Toturi's Army" is a clan or "Monkey Clan" is not a clan?
Not explicitly on the Oracle, I admit, though the guy who hosts and runs it may host Rules there someday. There are links to a Dropbox with multiple Rules documents currently in the welcome channel of this Discord, though.
right I've looked through those rules and I didn't see anything specific about what counts as a clan
Oh, it's in there. Depending on which Rulebook you were looking at, "Clan" might have been called "Faction"; same thing.
Lotus rulebook doesn't mention Shiro Usagi / Hare
Answers on: Shiro Usagi
It's only a Faction/Clan Alignment while its Stronghold is in play and the trait on it is active. Also, it was made after the base set, so it wouldn't be in the Rulebook either way; I don't think the SE Rulebook mentions it either though, for the first reason I gave.
I see, that makes sense. Do you know why The Forgotten Temple and The Maw's Grave are listed as "unaligned" in oracle instead of "shadowlands"?
Answers on: The Forgotten Temple, The Maw's Grave
Because they're not Shadowlands. That Faction was removed in Samurai Edition.
I see. So before Samurai, did a "shadowlands" stronghold have any special meaning?
seems like there's not much difference, unless there's a card that checks your faction
Some of the Rules on the Strongholds for Shadowlands Horde (unable to gain/lose Honor, not Political actions, etc) were at times baked in to the Rules and tied to the Faction rather than printed on the Stronghold. Plus, there's always the standing Rule that the "Shadowlands Horde" Faction/Clan Alignment is not equivalent to "Shadowlands" and can never be gained/given to Personalities. But otherwise, yeah, not much difference between those old Stongholds and Temple/Grave, other than being able to say you're "Aligned" to that "Faction".
gotcha, thanks for your help
Another thing I never understood (because I stopped playing in this era) was Ivory vs 20F vs Onyx vs ShE. It seems like there's overlap between these somehow?
Well, if you recall, there was a long-standing tradition (skipped in Gold, Diamond, and Lotus) of reprinting the Base Set ~halfway through the arc. Clan War had Imperial/Emerald/Obsidian, Jade had Jade/Pearl, SE had Samurai/SamuraiBanzai, CE had Celestial/CE15, and EE had Emperor/EmperorGempukku.
So, Ivory continued this, but was also going to be the start of a sort of "rolling legality", where every set would have two bugs, and the "mid-arc base set" would also be the start of a new "Strict" Format (there's a chart explaining how it would work I don't want to bother digging up right now). Then, every subsequent base set, the legalities would sort of "slide along".
Unfortunately, that idea of "rolling legality" spanning 2 bugs worth of cards couldn't be maintained in Onyx, given that it's a fan project with a much smaller team. So, they still did the "mid-arc base set", but at the arc midpoint and afterward, just went down to 1 bug instead of 2 and had the Shattered Empire (ShE) set supplant the original Onyx with tweaks and changes and some card swaps (and removing the current-legality white bug from Onyx Base), but mostly being exactly the same (similar to CW/JE/SE/CE/EE mid-arc sets being mostly the same, whereas Ivory/20F had many differences from one another).
Concrete examples: - Coastal Lane has the purple Ivory Edition bug (left) and the blue Twenty Festivals bug (right). Both use the same kanji, as part of the larger overall "Ivory" arc. - Toritaka Suppon has the blue Twenty Festivals bug (right) and black Onyx Edition bug (left). This card was released between Twenty Festivals and Onyx Edition as part of the "rolling legalty" mentioned above, so it was intended to straddle the two arcs. - Soli Izumo has the black Onyx Edition bug (left) and the white Shattered Empire bug (right). Both use the same kanji, as part of the larger overall "Onyx" arc. Onyx legality included all cards with the black bug, including cards which had seen physical print such as Toritaka Suppon as well as virtually designed cards such as Soli Izumo. - Susumu Geiko has the white Shattered Empire bug (right). The current Shattered Empire legality includes only cards with the white bug (whether or not it appears alongside the black bug as with Soli Izumo).
[attachment: printing_11547_1_details.png] [attachment: printing_12289_1_details.png] [attachment: 499707484_10239294702252221_5637398571241420182_n.png] [attachment: 493265039_10238998348243556_8842700939334413822_n.png]
I guess the confusing part is that in previous mid-arc edition reprints, they used the same bug -- so Jade/Pearl both had Jade bugs
correct, and the arcs lasted ~2 years with the same growing pool
the rolling legality was intended to create essentially a yearly shift where older expansions would rotate out while new ones were printed
so were there 20F events where some Ivory cards were not legal?
yes
in particular, 20F Arc events (blue bug-legal) would not include Ivory-legal cards from expansions printed before Ivory Edition's release, such as Ivinda Village (green Emperor Edition bug on right)
[attachment: printing_10729_1_details.png]
I might be slightly off with the terminology of the legality but that's the general idea
so if I understand correctly these were the event legalities: - Ivory (purple bug only) - Ivory+20F (purple/blue) - 20F (blue bug only) - Onyx (black bug only) - ShE (white bug only)
For Onyx and ShE, yes, that's mostly correct, though I think some Onyx online Events started being white-bug only before the sets came that only had the white bug? I may be wrong on that.
For Ivory/20F it was slightly more complicated, which makes me wish I could find the darned chart.
EDIT: There it is:
Here's the infographic @Brook Cunningham referenced above:
[attachment: p.png]
Wow, I remembered wrong. 😛 Editing my post above!
essentially, the graphic looks for the presence of the bug only (not the absence of others)
Ivory Extended including all EE/green cards was really untenible, though, because EE wasn't designed/built with this in mind; it was more of an example for comparison.
so Ivory strict is the same as 20F Arc?
so "Strict" was essentially "from year of release", and Arc was essentially "from year before release"
yeah
I assume the "arc" format was the most popular then?
or were there a lot of events/players for strict/extended?
pretty much
Strict was played in a few, and Extended was never really a big tournament format (but was more popular among individual playgroups to be able to use more cards)
No fully proper "extended" environ really existed contemporarily, because EE (green) wasn't made for it, and Onyx (which was/would've been black up until its midpoint set) never released.
for example, even when the Onyx Lives project transitioned the current legality from, essentially, "Onyx Arc" (black bug) to "Onyx Strict" (white bug, aka "Shattered Empire Arc"), there was at least one group who still intended to play "Onyx Extended" (blue/black/white bugs)
You also needed special Rules for "current-set-Strict" because the Strongholds and many Sensei were all single-bugged (purple-only in Ivory, blue-only in 20F).
ok I think this clears it up for me, thanks all
[ShE] At engage Aragan use his ability affecting 2 personalities and 12 followers (6 for each personality), then, during the battle, one of those personalities was killed with Call the Inferno (The Shugenja was fire) 1) The followers of that personality are killed too or they are just discarded because the personality died? 2) If they are considered killed, each one of them (along with the personality) create a new follower because of the ability that Arakan gave to them?
[attachment: 002.jpg] [attachment: 001.jpg]
If a personality leaves play, all cards attached to it leave play in the same way. 20F adv rulebook page 50.
So if the personality is destroyed, then all it's followers are destroyed too.
That answers definitively that they were destroyed (question 1), but it is a little up to interpretation if they were destroyed by the action or by that Rule you quoted, so their Yu may or may not trigger (question 2). I'm discussing it internally.
It wouldn't have made a difference in our game but i wouldve loved to have seen all those followers on one person lol
Under the OBH rules can the honor requeriment be ignore by paying 2 extra gold?
As I remember OBH do not apply the "blood Money" rule, but if your opponent actions made you loses honor you ignore honor requirement
A quick search of "blood money" in this channel confirm that there is no Blood Money rule.
[ShE] How does honesty apply in duels? do i have to pass a focus in order to reveal a honesty card?
You have Honesty when you have a face-up card with the Honesty keyword in your hand. By rules text, you use a Battle action to turn an Honesty card face-up in your hand, and there are other cards that can permit it during other phases (there's a Retainer Holding that lets you do it as an Open, for instance).
If I understand your question correctly, while focusing, you cannot gain Honesty because you're still within the Action that created the duel, so no, you can't pass a Focus opportunity to reveal your Honesty. If your Honesty would have an effect on the duel, it has to already be in effect before the start of the duel, and while I'm not sure, I believe you need to keep that Honesty card in your hand face-up to keep Honesty, meaning if you were to Focus your only face-up Honesty card, you'd lose Honesty (might be wrong in that it might persists until the end of the duel meaning you could Focus it, but I'll let someone else correct me if that's the case)
Ok, so have to be face-up in advance, i think the holding you are refering to is the Gunso, good card, thx mate
[ShE] The wording of this card confuses me. If I use it, do I gain the honor if my opponent assign personalities that turn? Then, if my opponent doesn't assign who loses the ability to proclaim me or the opponent?
[attachment: Sin_titulo.jpg]
The Active player is whoever's turn it is: they reveal their Provinces at the start, they declare an attack, and they buy Dynasty cards at the end.
If you play this on your opponent's turn, they gain 1 extra honor per Personality assigned to attack, up to 4, and if they don't, they can't Proclaim later during Dynasty.
If you play it on your turn, you gain the honor for each guy you assign to attack, and if you don't, you can't Proclaim.
You either play this against defensive high PH honor decks to slow them down and potentially take out a potential future defender, OR you play this as part of your Military Honor deck, getting you more honor for attacking (which you're doing anyway)
I see, thanks a lot!!!
[ShE] During battle I targeted a personality with this spell. 1) If that personality moves home and then moves back to the battlefield the spell's effect still remains? 2) What about if the personality moves home and then moves to another battlefield (in the same turn)? 3) What happens if the spell and/or the shugenja are destroyed afterward?
[attachment: Sin_titulo.jpg]
None of the 3 scenarios you mentioned will end the effect.
Thank you very much!!
[ShE] If I take the favor with either Kano or Suikihime and then use it with the second or third ability of either of them, those 2 actions are considered favor and allow me to play the ring of air?
[attachment: 003.jpg] [attachment: 002.jpg] [attachment: 001.jpg]
Answers on: Ring of Air
Lobbying is not a Favor action.
Got it. I would need to use both the second and third abilities of the winds in the same turn, right?
Thanks!!
Or potentially a Strategy or Personality or other card that has a Favor action.
[EE] The Battle ability of this card can target the personality in the unit?
[attachment: 00001.jpg]
Yes
Thanks
[EE] The boldface keyword I gave to the target (Kolat, Ninja or Shadowlands) is permanent?
[attachment: 00002.jpg]
No.
I see, thanks
If an effect would be permanent the card will specifically tell you
I was confused because of the first part of the text, I thought it gave the keyword in my turn and then "removed" the abilities in the opponent's turn
https://images.oracleofthevoid.com/l5r/d2/65/printing_546_1_details.jpg
Here's an example
Yeah, if the target isn't already Kolat, Ninja, or SL, you have to mount a slightly more organized smear campaign than a lone Jirou can do on his own.
[EE] Luxurious Silk will also be nerfed in the upcoming Emperor Tournament?
Answers on: Luxurious Silk
[EE] Sensei cards have the trait "After enters play, discard other sensei personalities". Does this include face-up sensei cards in provinces?
No, because those are not in play.
well, it doesn't say discard sensei personalities in play, just "discard all your other sensei personalities". Are you sure?
the start in play senseis are not personalities
answering my own question, from EE comprehensive rules: "An effect that refers to discarding "all cards" of a given type or keyword refers, by default, only to cards in play. This follows from the fact that the cards must be in view to verify that all such cards have been discarded."
The first sentence seems to be pretty conclusive, but... the second one still casts some doubts, since cards face-up in provinces are in view
But they're not in play.
The second sentence is only giving context/explanation of the first; it is not contradicting or expanding it. So, the "in play" part is the implicit default as stated by the Rules and correct/absolute in this case.
The sensei personality doesn't discard sensei that start in play it discard other sensei personalities that you may have in play already.
Good to clarify, though that wasn't the question; David was just asking if such a triggered trait also affected Sensei Personalities in Provinces (which it doesn't). I don't believe there was any question about Sensei pregame cards because, 1. they aren't Personalities, 2. they aren't in EE.
As far as I know stuff in provinces are not in play or did that changed too?
No, that didn't change, but the trait doesn't specify in play explicitly, however the Comprehensive Rules note that "discard all of a type of card" implicitly only affects such cards in play.
No. Why it should be? In Emperor while buying Personalities or attachements you pay their cost. LS in Emperor doesnt help there.
Honestly, LS was rarely used during EE as its pay for actions only.
Oh, so Buying personalities and attachments are not considered actions in EE, right?
Buying Personalities is not an action. Attaching attachments is an action, BUT, the attaching action itself costs nothing. Paying the gold for the attachment is separate and LS can't do it.
😭
In EE, LS is fair. In formats where buying things had the Gold Cost as part of the action’s cost (Modern, for example) LS is broken
EE Incriminating Testimony: "Battle: bow your performing courtier at any location..." doesn't require you to have presence in battle, does it?
Answers on: Incriminating Testimony
You need Presence in battle. "At any location" ignores only Rule of Location.
ok got it
[CE] Can you recruit a non-loyal personality of another clan? How does that mechanic works? Do you need to pay 2 more gold?
The "out of clan tax" of paying 2 more Gold for Aligned Personalities without your Alignment was only introduced in Ivory+. Before that, all Personalities can be bought by anyone for their printed cost, you just only get a discount for your Clan's.
Oh, I see, got it!
Thanks!
But don't forget that in CE you can't overpay to ignore HR of out-of-clan Personality.
EE: if a ninja personality has a ranged attack battle action, with no other keywords specified, is the ranged attack considered a "ninja action"?
Yes.
it's about apprentice shinobi
Answers on: Apprentice Shinobi
thanks, can you remind me where in the rules it says so?
Not offhand. Probably try a CTRL-F for "keyword" on the Dropbox PDF.
hmmm I wish I could paste images here
it's on Comprehensive Rules, Abilities section, lines 9, 10
I think you can if you ask for a Role in the (link) channel.
i wish people read pinned post in (link) 😄
"An ability also has any keywords that are on its card. Example: An ability on a Ninja card is a Ninja ability."
🤣 sorry
If wishes were horses, beggars would have Cavalry. 😉
ah ah !!
it's so convenient to have people that can answer your questions ! i tend to prefer asking questions because that's what builds relations between us, that is what makes a group. if you and macbeth2001 and the other administrators were bots, i'll no longer spend my spare time here !
and my english is not so good, i need to ask questions sometimes because of language barrier
I am, regrettably, very human. Not an admin, though; just a busybody who used to work for AEG and can't seem to stop doing what they no longer pay me (granted, in product) to do.
An unaligned ronin?
I am also extremely grateful for the answers here. I will play Sun and Moon soon, for now I am enjoying playing physical cards with a friend (we used to play back in 95-96, and now we have purchased a bunch of EE starters and boosters). But the idea of using S&M to try all the old editions again is very tempting.
oohh we are digressing. sorry
ok, but please move such stuff to (link) and leave this channel for rules questions. tia.
Hello Guys, one question under Lotus Rules for Houhou. I want to confirm if, when I use her ability. Does she check for the honor requeriment? I have attached something from the rulebook, but I am not sure if those applies only during dynastiy phase or also for actions like Houhou
[attachment: printing_3489_2_details.png] [attachment: image.png]
Answers on: Houhou
Yes, Honor Requirement is always checked unless explicitly exempted. Compare to the Spell "A Life for a Life".
[OBH] Imperial Palace of Fu Leng: If I read this and rules of performing correctly you can still play political actions if they do not involve any of your followers or personalities, like holdings with political abilities or action cards like Intercession?
[attachment: printing_2032_1_select.png] [attachment: printing_3782_1_select.png]
Answers on: Intercession
[Imperial] [Jade]
Can I bow a Ninja follower or Ninja Item for Ninja Tricks?
No, the MRP text explicitly calls out that it has to be a Personality.
Same with the original DJH printing, which said "Ninja in a battle", implying Personality. (Though, technically, by that OG wording, a Ninja Follower could satisfy it, kinda like Shugenja Followers could bow to cast Kiho.)
Oh damn that sucks
For DJH it only says Ninja in a battle so I thought maybe it can bow a follower
We are only playing ‘Old Border’ though does that change anything?
I believe that until Emperor reprint you could bow Ninja Follower or even Ninja Item for Ninja Tricks.
It's probably true. SH Strongholda from Gold era (when KYD was printed) got additional traits that don't allow playing any Political actions. IPoFL doesn't have such trait. There's just this restriction about performing. Btw here's definition of performing from Gold rulebook.
[attachment: image.png]
Hello guys, one question under Diamond Rules. If I have a Tengoku Acolyte and a dragon creature, Then I use Egg of panku to copy the dragon creature. does the reaction from the acolytes is valid? or the window is lost for the reaction?
[attachment: printing_7909_1_details.png] [attachment: printing_8042_1_details.png]
Answers on: Tengoku Acolyte
No trigger for the Reaction. The copy does not "enter play", the Egg enters then becomes the copy, hence the last line of text on the Egg.
[EE] The personality who is forced to commit seppuku is rehonored before dying, or the personality dies being dishonorable, forcing the player to lose honor equal to the personality's personal honor?
[attachment: Sin_titulo.jpg]
Committing seppuku always inherently includes Rehonoring prior to destruction.
Got it, thanks
[EE] This region's trait affects all my personalities or only the personalities at the region's battlefield
[attachment: Sin_titulo.jpg]
All.
Thanks!
This is FL card so by default is a good card. 😄
question under diamond rules for suitengu's surge. the spell says before an action targets a unit I control. Lets say the oponent is doing a Iaijustu Challenge. Is my oponen able to chose new targets? because it says before? or is the action lost?
[attachment: printing_7622_2_details.png]
Answers on: Suitengu's Surge
I can't be completely certain of the contemporary Diamond Rulings on the subject, but I don't think it was functionally any different than the LE MRP, just a different wording paradigm and added clarity, so the action would be lost.
Whoa this card looks sick
[EE] The golden plains stronghold. Can anyone please tells me how this works exactly? I seem to understand that, if I am attacking, a strategy terrain card is created at the battlefield as a recon reaction after engaging. However, defender has the right to play first, so he can actually use the battle action on the strategy terrain card to destroy it and play inmediately a strategy terrain card in his hand. What am I missing here? Thanks
Only TGP player can takie this action to destroy this Terrain.
The terrain is for the lion player
[attachment: printing_10012_1_details.png]
This action might be taken only by player who created this Terrain with TGP Reaction.
Before you ask - this card above is a proxy card for a Terrain created by TGP.
Okay, thanks. What if the opposing player would have any action to destroy terrains, such as Akodo´s grave? Would he be able to use it on terrain strategy card created by TGP Stronghold?
Yes.
I see, thanks so much
My confusion comes from that sticking to literality of the text on TGP (or Plains of Gold proxy card), battle action is not limited to lion clan player
When a player creates a card, he is also controller of this card by default.
Who goes first in the second game if playing 2 out of 3 matches? In OBH. Both cranes
I see you've asked this hither and yon, but it's really up to the Tournament Organizer at this point, who is @kempy_nezumi in your case. Tournament "Floor Rules", such as what you're asking, were/are a separate document and separate consideration from Game Rules.
[EE] Overlaying a more experienced version of a card is "voluntary", correct? after reading the rules, I don't find anything forbidding the player to simply play both personalities ignoring the "experienced" keyword..
You can't have two Unique Personalities with same name in play
Correct. You don't have to overlay.
Even if they have different Experienced level.
Your non-Unique regular Personality can enter play, then you can bring into play the experienced Unique version, without overlaying.
and also the other way around, correct?
Sure, but you can't skip Overlay if you have Unique Experienced in play and Unique Experienced 2 in Province.
That wasn't the question.
And correct. If I have an experienced version in play, I can bring the regular, non-experienced version into play, providing it is non-Unique.
The catch is that some non-experienced Personalities are Unique as well. Also, depending on format, watch out for Ancestors and/or Holdings counting as some experienced version of someone, which is Unique.
For more confusion in last edition arrived Experienced non Unique Personalities.
Yeah, what the hell was that about.
all clear, thanks
but can't all players use the abilities on a terrain in play? or only the controller?
Not that I know of, unless that changed at some point. Although some terrains specify that everyone gets an ability or similar.
Or maybe it's just Battle Strategies (non-Terrain) that do that?
Any card that you control, be it terrain, item, personality, etc, only you can use the printed actions on for as long as you control the card. If a card grants an ability to multiple players, it will explicitly say so.
[EE] Can I with the card "You are unworthy" destroy an attachment with no force on it, such a spell?
Answers on: You Are Unworthy
Yes.
[OBH] can a personality reenter play after a chi death? Or do they still have zero chi?
Probably, or on a subsequent turn? Whatever gave them the penalty likely wasn't permanent, so it would end after its normal duration (or immediately after they left play if it was a token).
[ShE] Is Tremor's Battle ability considered fire/earth or not?
[attachment: Sin_titulo.jpg]
Yes, it is both.
Great! Thanks!
[EE] does breaking the rythm negate force bonuses from attachments?
It should but note that most items provide ‘modifiers’ rather than bonuses.
Can "back to the front" be used if your last personality in the battle was sent home, or does the rule of presence prevent it?
[attachment: printing_662_1_details.png]
it can be used for any personality that was sent home from the battle
even if you no longer have a personality there?
yes
Please don't forget about adding edition/format tags
In Emperor Edition, moving a Personality in to create Presence was an exception to the Rule of Presence.
sorry, yes, it is EE. So any battle action that moves a personality to the current battle, in principle, can be used for instance to defend and otherwise undefended province from a cavalry unit?
Yes, but you'll find they aren't in abundance, or are conditional/costly.
not "back to the front", I know, because it requires your previous presence in battle
[EE] is equipping a spell (in the action phase, hence without using its battle actions immediately) considered a "spell action" in regards of putting the ring of air into play?
No.
You have to use a spell to be a spell action
[EE] This card is one of those few options (given my personality is a Magistrate), right?
[attachment: Sin_titulo.jpg]
Yep. Can be taken without Presence because it creates it, but can only move a Magistrate at Home (conditions!). 🙂
Well, if all my personalities are Magisrates, that stops being a condition, in a way xD
The really hard to find (and comes with cost) effects are movement into battle that can be done without opposition.
True, although David above was looking specifically at moving in to Defend against Cavalry.
The whole "being opposed" constraint is giving people nightmares even today in the most recen format (ShE)
Really?? That's the easy part to understand
That all seems the easy part when compared to needing to track dead states of personalities - including any permanent effects they may have gotten.
They are easy to understand, the nightmares come from the limitation itself since it reduces a lot the available options during a game
What about this example:
[attachment: printing_7103_2_details.png]
or this:
[attachment: printing_3055_1_details.png]
Yep. Both create Presence, so in EE can be taken without having it prior.
okay thanks... wish I had known it in time 🤣
Is there an edition where creating presence doesn't make an action count as absent?
Yes. Ivory and onward, where only the explicit Absent keyword allows an exception.
aha, good to know
[OBH] Doubts about Kaiu Sugimoto and actions from the hand. I remeber vagely that if you annunce an action from hand and Sugimoto reacts, you can decide to avoid pay costs from the action, the card come back to the hand and the card doesnt have memory from sugimoto reaction and in your next opportunity you can play it without the extra cost. What happens with reactions and engage, I do not remember well, if the card came back to hand, the chance pass to Sugimotos owner, if he do not plays a reaction or engange you lost the opportunity to play your reaction/engage?
Answers on: Kaiu Sugimoto
As in Ivory+ only actions costs are gold or bow icon (in case of cards in play) we probably need to go earlier, into EE section.
[attachment: image.png]
So Strategy card is just discarded if you can't pay a cost.
^^ this is from EE CR
Yeah, that is unfortunately not in the Ivory/20F CR, because the notion of Design during that period was to not have any voluntary/unknown effect change costs (hence Interrupts and targeting both occurring post-payment).
But also, in OBH an order of action is a bit different than in Ivory.
[attachment: image.png]
Sugimoto reacts in the first step, and when Sugimoto was played you can decide not to advance with the action, and the action card come back to hand because is a decision before you go to pay the costs
Yeah, I understand. And Reactions happen whenever, too. I'm just explaining its absence from the CR. I really wish they could've put any effort into supporting Legacy during Ivory so we'd have something truly "Comprehensive" from the Official era of AEG, but nope, and so even the Legacy wiki page you preserved isn't as perfect as I'd have liked, to my personal shame.
" you can decide not to advance with the action," ?
Well, I'm not sure that was ever true, and I'm fairly sure that's not true under EE, and the quote Kempy showed stands to arbitrate that interaction.
Once you announce an action, there's no "stopping" it, except by the explicit "oh crap, I have to pay more and can't/don't want to" clause in EE cited above, under which Strategies from hand are discarded.
Ok I was searching in LaVozAkasha Forum (in spanish)
Before path of hope you decided not to pay costs and the card returns, but in Drums of Wars as you not pay costs the cards is discarded
From 2006, my memory is good, but not perfect
XD
Well! That's good to know, for DE/LE simulation tournies! I do vaguely recall it changing at one point now that you mention it. @kempy_nezumi , write that down for history!
https://forolavozakasha.mforos.com/42345/4832449-dudas-con-sugimoto/
[dudas con sugimoto]
Maybe it's in DoW rules sheet i don't have access to.
We'll find you one someday! Heck, I might even have one, and I may be moving soon, so maybe I'll run across it when I do.
I think I have one in spanish at home. Now I am out visiting my in laws, but I can search it next monday
Ok, Got it. RotS rules sheet
[attachment: image.png]
It's not clearly specifc on what happens to a failed attachment, but it seems like it may be harsher than EE and you lose it too; as in, "cards being played from hand are discarded" applies both to attachments and Strategies (using both definitions of "play" at once)? :/
[EE] if Asaku Kikugoro is put into play from a province, does his trait trigger before, or after the card in his province is refilled?
[attachment: printing_556_1_details.png]
From EE CR: "When a card leaves a province and the province then holds fewer than its maximum number of cards, effects triggered by the card leaving the Province or entering play resolve first (including effects of Events that resolved from that Province). Then, if the Province still holds fewer than its maximum number of cards, it is refilled with a face-down Dynasty card from the top of the Province’s owner’s deck, unless something else has refilled it (see Refill)."
So it seems that this Reaction may trigger before Province is refilled.
[attachment: image.png]
thanks, so he can pick between two cards to refill his province. nice
what's that forum?
dead one
i mean its from old AEG forum
what a pity, ain't it preserved somewhere?
Not exactly. You cannot change the order of the cards you looked at, so if you want to refill with the second, it comes at the consequence of bottoming the first.
It's in Dropbox as a zip archive. I mean some pages are there but rest is in a form of shattered files. When it was still online and reopened after sale for a while i tried to archive it but soft i used did it in such horrible way.
So to find any answer you need to use brutal search the files option with your preffered tools (personally i am using search in total commander).
[EE] is it legal to use an open action with wording "Give your personality XXX", if that personality already has the keyword XXX?
Yes. The effect of giving it to them will simply fail.
It's the same the item gets discarded
Maybe it was in Lotus. But in EE, attachments stay in hand in case of not being able to pay costs.
"Interference with mandatory costs From the point when the action is announced legally to the point where the individual cost is required, if payment of any of an action’s mandatory costs is interfered with, the player taking the action may choose to pay the costs another way, or choose not to pay the cost.
If he or she cannot pay the costs another way, or chooses not to, then any remaining costs do not need to be paid, but costs already paid are not refunded, and the action’s effects do not happen. The action is still considered taken and ended, but not resolved, and the ability that created it is considered used. If the action was on a card still in a resolution area (see Announce the action, this page), the card will be discarded normally when the action ends (see Action ends, this page). This includes Strategies that did not enter play, other cards with actions that could be played from a face-down and out-of-play area, and cards searched for in the deck that did not enter play. [ADDED Mar 20 2013]"
This was the trick for mrika and panekis mask no?
Yes. And that's why they added a last sentence about cards with abilities (like attachments with actions that put them into play) - in such case, those cards are discarded.
" This includes Strategies that did not enter play, other cards with actions that could be played from a face-down and out-of-play area, and cards searched for in the deck that did not enter play. [ADDED Mar 20 2013]"
As OBH in OBH we have:
Equip Repeatable Open, [ Gold Coin]: Following all restrictions, put into play an attachment from your hand to your target performing personality.
So if you announce this ability and OP Reacts with Sugimoto, if you fail to pay additional costs, attachment stays in hand.
But if you announce ability on attachment in hand that equips/puts into play itself, and you fail to satisfy additional cost from Sugimoto, such card is discarded.
[attachment: printing_78_1_details.png]
I think it work this way. But @Brook Cunningham should confirm. 😉
Your interpretation of the text looks correct to me. 👍
[OBH] Iuchi Shaocheng: Can this card choose a personality that is already face up, as the turn a face-down card part is effect and not cost?
[attachment: printing_10325_1_select.png]
Answers on: Iuchi Shaocheng
Yes, precisely.
I have again, another question for this card under diamond rules. It says the personality comes again before the start of my turn. So does it counts as coming into play during my turn? Or my oponents turn?
[attachment: printing_7622_2_details.png]
Well, here we are again. How it functioned under Diamond Rules may be lost to time, but knowing generally how things were handled during that era, I think there's a distinct possibility that it was Ruled by fiat that returning to the game did not count as entering play at all, as was clarified on the LE MRP.
That said, it doesn't say what you said it did. It says, "before the beginning of the next" which is definitely on the previous turn, but whose depends on when you activated it.
https://kolatinformant.wordpress.com/2012/06/03/master-tigers-thoughts-most-powerful-expansions-1/
[Master Tiger’s Thoughts: Most Powerful L5R Expansions #1]
Found this on regards to the card, not sure how accurate the site was
But it seems the lotus errata was to prevent how it worked on diamond edition
That's not errata, that's a MRP. The article saying that it was errata indicates it was changed prior to the end of Diamond. I wonder if it might be on Enemy of my Enemy and/or Code of Bushido Rulesheets, @kempy_nezumi ?
You are right wrong use of words
I have not found an errata
Not on those afforementioned Rulesheets, then? Sorry, I forget if Kempy has them somewhere public; he seems to have just been posting them in Discord somewhat randomly.
Yes they are in the diamond channel, there is no mention about it
Hrm. Well, either it was post-Code release errata, or the article was playing a little loose with the terminology, though it seemed to get it "right"/distinguish between errata vs. MRP in other entries. :/
I recall during the initial print of the card, it came back during the next immediate turn as in if you surge on your turn, then he comes back in opponents turn. Also, initially, it came back straightened and triggers enters play.
After quite a few shenanigans combo (triggers elemental dragons and stuff), it was later ruled to exit and enter play in the same state. Bowed if bowed etc.
And in LE, does not trigger enters play.
Your recollection of what turn it comes back during seems directly contradictory to the wording. "Before the beginning of the next turn" I don't think can be interpreted as anything but being on the same turn the ability was used. Perhaps you're conflating the memory with the Lotus MRP, which changes the return to "after the next turn begins"?
Perhaps. It has been awhile. Maybe it does return on your next turn indeed.
All I remembered about that card was the straightened vs return in the same state ruling
Well, no, never does it talk about "your" turn. The DE printing indicates it would come back "before" the "next turn", which would be relative to whichever turn it was used on (thus returning on/at the very end of the same turn it left).