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@Brook Cunningham [ShE] Does opponent cards targeted by Togashi Toa stays Face Up?
Answers on: Togashi Toa
Sun and Moon #rules-questions
Messages from the Sun and Moon #rules-questions Discord channel, copied for Oracle of the Void. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings and the rulebooks may differ.
and please elaborate
Turning cards face up was a mechanic introduced alongside the Honesty keyword. Cards turned face up stay that way permanently, either by the Honesty action or in this case, Toa
Thank you, is there somewhere in the rules that talks about this?
Wasn't there something in Samurai edition that turned cards face up? It was so long ago, I don't remember for sure.
It may have just "reveals" now that I think about it.
they are referring to in hand, not in provinces.
Ok, about reveal and face up cards I remember long discussions with Ninjutsu trait (diamond/lotus). I think that in rulings from that time you can have more info.
The train of thought for them remaining faceup uses the honesty section of the rules where it states the cards remain faceup unless something turns them face down. Toa's action is not an honest effect, and it has no specific wording to last beyond the standard until end of turn.
a player a player The answer given by a player is mostly correct, the card does stay face-up, though they described the reason slightly incorrectly.
Turning a card face-up is an instant effect, not technically "permanent" (that term refers to an ongoing effect with an "until the game ends" duration). Instant effects happen, then stay that way until another contrary effect "un-does" them. Examples of other instant effects include bowing, dishonor, movement, and destruction.
Good deal, thanks! a player my bad!
why You'r bad? You just were arguing just like Bayushi courtier ;P
[CE] If i use the ability of a spell, bow it, and with another action unbowed it, can i use its ability again? or is it that all abilitys have a "1 time per turn" limit?
All abilities have a default limit of once per turn unless explicitly stated otherwise.
[OBH] Rebuilt Temple: Is the 1 honor gain part of the Gold Production stat or otherwise repeatable? I think it is intended that way as it is not an ability, but the wording is a bit unclear...
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Yes, it's a trait and works any times per turn. If you produce 2 gold you also gain 1 honor every time.
That's also why eg this Holding got this restriction to avoid some tricks.
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I know it is implied, but shouldn't this reaction have repeatable added to it on Oracle?
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[OBH] And am I right in assuming that this draws 1 card per assigned attacking unit
No. Specific limits to use that are outside default "OPT", or "ANOTPT/Repeatable", are explicit in the text, like this one.
Yes. And/or if a unit moves in to attack. However, only once per unit. If you send one home and it moves back, you can't React to the return.
For uniformity and clarity's sake wouldn't it be better to add repeatable to them? Like as it is written now one could assume it means to allow draw a card for each unit assigning OR to draw when one or more units are moving, but usable only once per turn still.
If it were repeatable, then it would be usable on a unit that assigned, got moved out, then moved back in
No because once per unit per turn should make that very clear
Yeah, no. Indeed, as Marcus says, "Repeatable" means something different, ANOTPT full stop. Any other use limits are spelled out explicitly, and I think it's as clear as it can be; and sufficiently so; I don't think it's as open to the misinterpretation as you opine.
ANOTPT?
I can't for the life of me figure out what 'per turn' this is meant to be...
Any number of times per turn
Then does that make Akasha 's ability usable multiple times (once per keyword/trait/ability) in the same turn?
Chiang-Tsu on the other hand was given repeatable...
No. "Once per game" comes first as the first limiting factor, being a greater limitation than OPT, then that is expanded to be "per keyword", but because OPG is more limiting than OPT, it doesn't overcome it. Conversely, on Campsite, "Once per unit" is first, allowing more frequency than OPT, but then its per unit effect itself is limited.
Then why is Chiang-Tsu repeatable?
Because I'm human and nobody's perfect. 😛
Kitsu Juri too
Answers on: Kitsu Juri
I find the repeatable version to be more clear. Like it is very clear when the 'once per' lists a timing (battle, turn, etc)
But when it is once per target that is not as clear
Yeah, Chiang-Tsu and Juri are restictions on the number of times the action can target a particular guy. I should not have placed that restriction in the "number of times you can take the action" place in the action. Will fix.
How do these once per target actions interact with copying and how with allowing additional use of the ability?
Additional uses won't affect them; as I said, they're restrictions on how many times per game the action can target a particular guy, not how many times they can be used. Now, copies of the action, however, will be brand new in all senses, so you can get around that restriction.
Shiryo no Kaiu has repeatable too.
Answers on: Shiryo no Kaiu
That said, there is a lot of cards that have ANOTPT, but only once per X...
How are they different from repeatable but only once per X?
X being target
Though I suppose repeatable, but only once per battle would work too.
Again, I'm just a human guy. 😛
That's ok, I'm not blaming you :p
I'm merely trying to help create clarity for myself (and incidently others) 😜
To me at least any action is usable only once per turn, unless it has repeatable, any indication of how frequently it can be used should be a clarification of repeatable, not of 'once per turn'. And that would make it clear if actions that can only target things once per game/personality/action/etc can be used once per turn or multiple times per turn.
ANOTPT is basically the old wording for repeatable. Unless I'm wrong
Correct. Any cards you see in the Oracle with ANOTPT written out explicitly and not changed to "Repeatable" (as you note in your 9am post above) have simply not been converted to Ivory+ wording yet. I got all cards in the Oracle converted to Emperor compliance, but unfortunately only got partway with Ivory conversions.
[ShE] Do you still need more naval cards than the opponent to get a naval first action?
No
[CE] Im guessing not but i ahve to ask; can i pay 2 less gold for onis with this stronghold?
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No. You can only get a Clan Discount when using a Stronghold with a Clan Alignment, for Personalities with the same Alignment.
Additionally, note that even Shadowlands Horde aligned Strongholds also can never get a Clan Discount. This is because there is no "Shadowlands Horde" Alignment keyword/designation. The "Shadowlands" keyword is not equivalent.
Obviously ShE: Is this card a shadowlands card because it gives the personality shadowlands? or is it just maho?
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Just Maho.
Why is the 1 at the focus slightly to the right?
It’s an out of date image
ShE: If you are at the location, can you decalre cavalry with that unit, and they just wont move?
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Yes. If you want, you can target your unbowed Cavalry unit Personality who's already at the current battlefield with the Engage, and the movement effect will then just fail.
thank you
👉 Please tag your rules questions with [edition/format] you are asking for. Please use square brackets like [SE], [OBH], [20F] etc.
👉 Please tag your rules questions with [edition/format] you are asking for. Please use square brackets like [SE], [OBH], [20F] etc.
[ShE] can you proclaim someone who is overlayed onto another ie an experienced person?
👉 Please tag your rules questions with [edition/format] you are asking for. Please use square brackets like [SE], [OBH], [20F] etc.
Eg in Twenty Festivals, Overlaying isn't Recruiting, so no Proclaim possible.
thanks for the reminder!
Hello guys, question when buying personalities in Gold edition. If I have a personality with honor requirement 0. I have 0 family honor and I try to buy something with a corrupted mine. Can I bring the personality in play? In the rulebook I found the following:
Before using a card, you must bring it into play, observing all restrictions, choosing all targets (see “Targeting and Redirection” on page 45), and then paying all costs (see “Costs and Effects” on page 38).
But I still dont get if the honor loss happens first than getting the personality into play. If I understand this well enough, the honor check should happen first and then paying the costs
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Yeah, I had been looking into this one since I saw it also asked in the Facebook group, and from a strict read of the GE Rulebook, I would tend to agree that the Restrictions are checked before the payment, so it would work like you said.
However, I have been meaning to look and see if Diamond or Lotus maybe codified the process more specifically, and could be interpreted as what Gold "meant" the process to be, and we could perhaps infer that it was Ruled in a certain way in Gold based on how they clarified it later, but I haven't gotten around to it yet.
Thanks, please reply to my original post in facebook as well when able. So the guys here in GT would beleive it 😅
[Jade] Can you challenge your own personalities as long as the challenge doesn't specify "another players personality"?
No.
It's one of the game's core rules, that was never changed in any edition, that you can never, ever, control both Personalities in a duel.
Not one I ever remembering reading, or cared enough to remember. I was just helping someone put an enlightment deck together and he was worried about if the other deck didn't run any personalities
Faceless decks can be a pain. nod
You mean can be very fun. ^_^
[CE] Is a personality discarded from a province considered honorably dead?
No.
Discarded is discarded. It never entered play, so those concepts don't apply.
As @saaam answered: no. Otherwise, this card would be coaster. And we know it was amazing in Celestial.
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It was such a good card in CE.
Early Celestial. Civility and this guy was solid option for Turn 2 blitz.
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Yeah, the Hero decks were a thing. Lion, too.
Dont you have to pay his gold cost anyway with Civility?
Yes
Buy you buy holdings turn 1, and have a Personality in play in 2nd turn and ready to attack, instead of turn 3. So you are a a turn faster.
[Legacy] Playing a ring with house of Tao does not count as playing a ring by its own text which means that you would not be able to win via enlightenment without removing that same ring from play and then playing it via its own text, correct?
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Answers on: House of Tao
No. There is no inherent Rule in general 20F that the Ring must enter play by its own text. And while OBH Legacy does have that Rule added, it also includes an exemption for Rings put in play before the game starts by Strongholds.
[Legacy] Tadaji Sensei - If your battle maidens both destroy an enemy army and the province. I have 4 battle maidens. Do I get the bonus honor once for destroy army or province (or both) or do I get the bonus honor twice for destroying both?
I guess, is the (or both) preventing the double gain?
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Answers on: Tadaji Sensei, Battle Maidens
The Oracle wording indicates it only triggers once per battle if either (or both, implicitly) conditions are met. I believe this is the accurate interpretation.
[OBH] There are a few Events I've noticed that read Unique. Can an Event that is not Unique be in the Dynasty deck twice?
Yes. Check the Oracle, though; all Events from the time when Events were limited to one per deck by default Rules have had "Unique" added to them.
I was thinking of Calls to Thunder. If I could put that in my deck twice, that would be perfect
I know Welcome Home is Unique, for good reason
Kachiko Calls to Thunder?
yep
No. It's from Jade and therefore Unique in Oracle. The Rules change occurred in Emperor/Celestial changeover.
ohhh
Although there is an event that allows you to put a resolved Event back into your Dynasty
Yeah, the Rule that each Event can only resolve once per game per title was:
1. Always optional before being fully codified in Gold, (but that said, it was in effect for most/all tournaments prior), then it was...
2. ...dropped in LE.
Ok
Oh yeah i remember that and the race to get certain events like inheritance.
Thank you!
Probably I shouldn't have asked the previous question. I found a much better card that was what I needed for what I really needed to do.
Think of it as all a part of the process!
[Imperial] Is Crushing Attack and other related cards need opposing unit in the battlefield to be used?
Answers on: Crushing Attack
Crushing specifically, yes. Other cards may be different depending on wording/contemporary Rulings; specifics required.
That was changed in 99. So i believe, earlier you could play it unopposed.
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I can't post photos but in the Accumulated Rulings 2000 it also says REVERSAL. Does that mean it applies in Imperial?
Ah, shoot. I had that Ruling in mind but forgot it was a Reversal. Yeesh; arc simulation is a pain.
Oh my bad, I don't know what REVERSAL means in the rules context
eg here's quote from 22 apr 1998 faq
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Oh nice. Is that FAQ downloadable somewhere?
link to Dropbox with all the stuff is in (link)
hot tip: checking pinned posts in subchannels is always good idea in this server
[Legacy] If I have a holding that is both a mine & market, do I get +1 or +2? [Simple Merchants]
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+2
[CE] Can I use this strategy targetting an honorable personality?
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CE CR:
Good Faith Rule: When an action is announced, the player must be able to target all required targets, meet all conditions of the action, and pay all mandatory costs, to the best of his or her knowledge.
"target dishonorable Personality"
The thing is the "target" word is missing
Is it implicit?
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Right, my bad
Also
"B. Explicit performing and required targeting At this step, an action’s explicit performers must be chosen, and required targets from its constraints and effects blocks must be targeted, in the order the performers or targets are mentioned."
"An action’s required targets consist of anything that is targeted by the player taking the action in the action's constraints or effects, using the word “target” or “targets,” unless the targeting is explicitly described as optional. Optional targeting is described either by “may target” wording, or by a choice between the targeting and something else, such as “lose 2 Honor or target a Personality you control."
Got it, thanks
[OBH] or whatever Edition she happens to be from. Ikoma Tsanuri. "Ignore all effects of terrains and regions." This means, then, that any terrains I play are also negated? I was hoping that terrains would be negated for my enemy but not for me. I was really hoping to play Deadly Ground.
Answers on: Ikoma Tsanuri, Deadly Ground
Yeah, sorry. Exp 1 and Exp 2 Tsanuri negate all Terrains and Regions, yours and your opponents'. If you want just the other players' Terrains affected by her, you want non-Exp Tsanuri.
Great, I'll check her out.
[Jade] Do cards like Toturi is Drugged, being a Ninja Open, mean it has a ninja performer of the action? (Sorry for my english)
Answers on: Toturi Is Drugged
The concept of "performing" was not introduced that early, but if you're asking if there is any hidden/implicit need for you to have or target another Ninja card in conjunction, the answer is "no".
[Jade] In relation to Kitsuki Kaagi’s Journal
Answers on: Kitsuki Kaagi
The significance of Toturi is Drugged and similar Strategy cards having "Ninja" is for their interactions with other cards, such as The Longest Night making them un-negatable, or preventing you from playing "Lies Lies Lies".
Sorry if I added Imperial, should be Jade?
Oh, that thing. That's a complicated thing, but the short, simple answer is nothing about Toturi is Drugged allows it to target the Journal Personality.
You can go ahead and tag your follow-up post specifically calling out the Journal as Jade. 🙂
[Jade] Same thing as Ninja Thief?
Yes, same answer. And you forget to tag this one Jade too. 😉
[Imperial] Does Isawa’s Helm negate all the effects of The 12th Black Scroll when targetting a unit in battle?
Answers on: Isawa, The 12th Black Scroll
Per the current Oracle wording of the 12th Black Scroll, it does not target, which I believe is correct per contemporary Rulings, though I am on my phone and cannot verify. Thus, the Helm cannot react.
Actually, put a pin in that, as I am finding some information that conflicts with the Oracle text, so I'll have to research more.
[OBH] After attaching Untested Blade during assignment with Nimm'k, does one get to take a battle action?
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Answers on: Untested Blade, Nimm'k
No, becaue you are in the Maneuvers Segment, not in an action round; the granting "additional action" only gives you an extra, immediate action in the current round unless the effect specifically says otherwise.
[ShE] does he creates a follower when he cavalry engages to battlefield from assigned battlefield
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is it considered movement if You move from assigned battlefield before engaged was commenced there?
Unfortunately, no. The intent is that "moves out of a battle" means "moves from/out of the current battlefield", which is how it should have been worded; it's my fault that isn't, and I am pushing for a clarifying errata/edit.
However, it still technically works as intended as written by a very strict interpretation. A "battle" is not a location but is a thing that happens at a battlefield during a specific period of time. Thus, the only "battle" that could ever be moved "out of" is the one happening at the current battlefield, since no other "battle" would be happening concurrently, if you follow my reasoning?
Any change of location that isn't due to assigning, changing control, or battle-resolution/battle-ceasation sending you home is "movement", but that doesn't change the above answer.
This answer made no sense
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I'm sorry you feel that way? I'm not quite sure where I lost you, though. If anything, I find your post of a screenshot from the CR to be supplemental to my explanation rather than in any way contradictory, assuming you were trying to frame it as the latter. :/
I find it to be completely contradictory
It says "exactly one battle happens at each battlefield"
I assign to a battlefield
cool
I cav to another battlefield
I have left that battle to go to a new battle
You have left that battlefield to go to a new battlefield. There is only one battle occuring at one of them at that time.
It says "exactly one battle happens at each battlefield, even ones with no units"
all battlefields are battles
All battlefields have battles, but the attacker chooses which battle happens at a time.
but that doesn't mean it wasn't a battle
Note the second sentence. "When that battle is over, the attacker chooses a new battlefield where a battle has not been fought, and another battle is fought there."
I was talking to the players who were asking this question, I explained my thoughts on the trait, I read them this rule, and I told them if you ruled differently that it would make no sense, and it really doesn't make any sense
The battles are started by the attacker, and happen one at a time. Per that sentence.
oh my You keep me awake ;p
But if its not intended to work that way then it's an easy oversight to fix the wording on the card
for me it has sence xD
Biapolis is explaining it quite succinctly and correctly. Each battle at a battlefield starts and ends in an order chosen by the attacker. They are not occurring simultaneously.
MacBeth admitted this to be the case and said lobbying to fix it is occuring.
so there is one battle that streamlines throught battlefields 😛 is it right>?
Ok, well I don't run unicorn, so not really an issue for me
You could kinda word it like that, but not quite. 😅 4 different battles.
I just find it hilarious that Macbeth likes to rule against my interpretations every time.
People should just ask me for how I would interpret it, and play the exact opposite
Yeah, we needn't debate it at length, because a clearer wording will be applied at some point in the future, but I didn't want confusion to persist in the interim.
So every time You explain or say sth i will take the opposite interpretation and I will be right?
I hate that GIFs seem to not be working, was gonna make a life is a highway joke because unicorn, but ah well
apparently you should because I obviously can't play the game
I think you may need a mod-Assigned "Role" to have permission to post pictures and/or GIFs? But I may be thinking of a different channel. shrug
BTW, I have another Ruling related to your post: The original "Life is a Highway" by Tom Cochrane is superior to the Rascal Flatts cover.
[Legacy] When attaching a follower to a dishonored personality, they cannot attach due to the personality not having enough honor for the follower, correct?
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yes
If a battle ties, do dishonored personalities rehonor, or do they die dishonorably?
rehonor
Unless something changed in the rules
I believe a player was mistaken in this first answer; the Rule (and stat) of Follower Honor Requirement was dropped in Ivory, and the OBH Legacy Rules do not reinstate it.
They were correct about rehonoring in a tied battle, though.
[EE] What does the personal honor ability of Shamate Keep mean exactly?
Your dishonorable Paragons do not have a maximum Personal Honor of 0 from the rulebook.
Meaning I have just to ignore that rule from the rulebook? So they keep their personal honor intact? Since I haven't played yet I don't know what this means in practice but I guess having low personal honor makes you a walking target?
[EE] Can Hasty Fortifications be bowed for the Carpenter Castle ability?
Pretty succinctly, yes. They can still be found by things that target/look for "dishonorable" Personalities, but if you have things in your deck that rely on having high PH, you don't lose out on those.
Yes.
nice
[OBH] Shadowlands Strongholds and starting honor from senseis: Do they alter it? What about cards like Keigo Sensei who sets starting starting honor at X?
Answers on: Keigo Sensei
Hrm. It doesn't seem OBH has any specific Rules addressing this. There were contemporary Rulings that SLH players could use Yori Sensei (and other Starting Honor reducing Sensei) without dropping them below -19, so I would generally consider that to mean the -19 unalterable by any Sensei means, including Keigo. I should probably add something to that effect to SLH Strongholds in Oracle, though; tack it on to their "can't gain/lose Honor" trait. 😦
Its mentioned here: Ivory Followers are treated as a cards with HR as "-".
Oh, I missed it, sorry. What heading was that under in the OBH Rules document?
Yes. OBH document was a my personal compilations of files from old OBH Facebook page. And it wasnt complete. Kwek is maintaining an online document that's WiP now and here's part of it. Hope he will finish it soon.
I know it's a typo but now I'm thinking about compila-toons. I wanna watch them.
Yes.
Is it just the Ivory followers that are -, and the older followers still need to meet honor requirements, then?
Exactly.
(link) and check Followers there
I wasn't mistaken I did say unless the rules had changed and they did.
You said that about the Rehonoring from tied battles; no way of telling it was connected to your Followers answer also. But it turns out I was going off an incomplete list of OBH Rules too anyway. 😦
All good 😊
I'm still learning the whole OBH thing
[CE] If i have this event in my province, do i get to discard it? it says it cant be discarded from play, but i dont know if discard from the province is consider play
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That's not the CE copy? CE copy doesn't work like that one.
But also: No, in a Province is not "in play".
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This is Celestial version
Ah i see, ok ill make sure to switch it
[CE] Its an undead criature considered human if they dont have the Nonhuman keyword?
yes
If there's no Nonhuman (or Creature in early editions) keyword on card, it's Human one.
2 gold difference?
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Yes. Ivory reprints are cheaper because there was no Clan Discount in this edition.
But they are OBH legal?
Sure. Some Ivory reprints are even for free in OBH.
Also don't forget about "Soul of..." rule - so you can't put both versions in same deck.
She is a superior Toku in Lion now 🙂
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Btw original Toku is no more 0GC on OBH unless you play Toturi's Army (he has +2GC because of out of clan hike).
[Jade] Can Poison Dartgun be attached to Bayushi Togai for free?
Answers on: Poison Dartgun, Bayushi Togai
Not unless you give him the Ninja keyword somehow first. If you do, then yes.
Also note that Togai is not Legal for Strict or Extended Jade formats.
My bad. Not really know what to tag since I'm not familiar with anything beyond Imperial, we are just trying out an old back only format we call HE since all cards until The Dark Journey Home is legal.
Isn't is just the same as Dripping Poison, where he can attach to himself for free? Dripping Poison is for ninja only, and only has the Poison keyword in the oracle.
Togai has a special explicit exception for Dripping Poison itself only, not any Ninja-only Poison card.
That's sad. Can't we follow this oracle text? "Attaches cards with "Poison" in their titles, or as part of any of their keywords, ignoring Gold cost."
Yes, we can. But that does not override "Attaches to Ninja only" on the Dartgun.
Or because Poison Dartgun is for Ninja only?
Okay I get it now. Thanks
Also, @Brook Cunningham by any chance did you have the time to check in on the 12th Black Scroll + Isawa's Helm clarification? Appreciate it
Ah, yeah, I did, and it's a bit tricky and sticky. It seems from the research I've done lately that the Oracle Text may be wrong, and the 12th Black Scroll should in fact target. Unfortunately, it's been sitting there in the Oracle with its current, non-targeting text for over 10 years, and there was an official Ruling made in the Rules Forum based on that not-targeting Oracle text back in 2014. So, I've been reluctant to just flip all of that on its head in a singular fell swoop.
I understand the situation. Thank you
[Jade] Rise from the Ashes vs Seppun Sensei: Rise will block Honour gains, just like Deeds, Not Words would, because it's a permanent/on-going effect for a turn, correct?
(Looking at the 2006 edition of the Accumulated Rulings, specifically for Seppun Sensei's clarifications/examples.)
Ok, so looking at the 2006 Rulings, if you take bullet 3's point on Deeds as true, then it seems that would apply to Rise also, as they both set up an ongoing blanket change to Honor, and are not direct Reactions to it.
However, that's one of those Rulings with no basis in how the card was ever written. The 2006 erratum "...voluntarily changed" hardly makes that clearer or changes the function significantly, as one "voluntarily" activates both Rise and Deeds at some point. They should've probably just had it explicitly prohibit direct Reactions to the gain or loss that change it, if that's what they "meant", but they never did.
Sorry, kind of a non-answer there, but a proper Ex-Jade contemporary answer seems to be nigh impossible to parse. Even now, we're looking at stuff said 6-7 years after the fact in an era when Rulings seemed often based solely on how someone "thinks theny know how things should work/have worked" rather than how they were ever actually written, or actually Ruled at the time, errata or not.
In 2012, we (via our official positions at AEG) tried to make the Sensei have clearer explicit text (see Oracle), when AEG was still to trying to make Legacy play a thing. Of course, Rise was banned in AEG Legacy, so preserving how they may have interacted in Jade wasn't a priority. Full disclosure, I'm not sure we took Deeds into consideration either and were instead more focused on trying to make the card work how it was supposed to mostly/solely based on its own wording and making that clearer/more modern.
Yeah, would've been so much easier if it just prohibited Reactions that mess with your Honour gains and losses.
[OBH] Do cost reductions reduce the cost of Invest? In other words is the Invest cost added to the total cost of the card before reductions take effect?
Generally yes. Most reductions are when paying, and Invest adds the cost before paying. Do note that there are a number of 10G Invest-cost Personalities that specifically prohibit that Invest cost from being reduced.
[ShE] If the opponent interrupts to negate to force bonus/penalty, do I still get the chance to take the additional action to bow and use the fire spell? / And what about if the opponent interrupts the first action to negate the battle action? Do I still get to take the additional one?
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Depends on the scope of the negations? Can't really answer without specific cards for their interactions.
[OBH Legacy] can this fear target a personality with followers?
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“Fear X” is shorthand for the effect “Target an enemy Follower or Personality with- out Followers, and bow it if it has X or lower Force.” Fear effects from cards in the same unit can be combined with each other
Well, this is an unfortunate thing I've been wrestling with. The fairly common "this affects Personaities as if they were Followers" doesn't really work/interact with post-Ivory/20F Fear. So, I've been toying with the idea of Oracling all the old Fear to work like it used to do (which would be, targeting a Personality, then bowing all the non-Undead Followers in the unit), so that these effects would actually DO something again. But that would be a massive undertaking. I don't think OBH has any provisional or preservational Rules regarding it specifically in the absence of that.
So, in short, for the time being,that wording does nothing, right? You have to sill target the followers first
Ok, let's analyze these two cards then. What would happen in each case?
[attachment: eg_02.jpg] [attachment: eg_01.jpg]
Yeah, it doesn't get aound the targeting restriction.
Got it, thanks
Oracle of Earth would negate everything: the Force bonus/penalty as well as the additional action.
CBQ would only negate the Force bonus/penalty, you can still take the additional action
Ah, simple. Oracle of Earth negates all the effects of the action of Hikarou Sensei. Giving you an additional action is one of those effects; that will also be negated. Courage Beyong Question only negates the bonus or penalty from the Sensei's action; the granting of the additional action is not dependent on either of those happening (no "to" linking the effects), so you'll still get that.
@Brook Cunningham That's pretty much what I thought. Thanks!!!
[OBH Legacy] In Sun and Moon, the text says that equipping spells is Open, but I've been told that in Oracle, the text says equipping spells is Battle/Open. Which one is correct?
[attachment: eg_03.jpg]
Oracle have text from old cards update for 20F.
You can use Morikage as open/battle
Yeah, in Lotus, "Open" meant "Battle/Open".
Which is what the Oracle text actually says.
Ok, that's very, very important to know. Why the text hasn't been updated in SnM?
because the card was never reprinted with updated text, I assume
with the exception of cards from the Onyx Lives project, every card image in SnM is a scan of a physical copy, no? Or, at least, it's taken from the oracle site, which has them from scans of physical copies, I'd at least assume
So, for old cards I should not trust the card texts in SnM... ok...that's... inconvenient...
Thank you very much!!
There's a combination of rules changes (Open used to be used as Battle, for instance) as well as card errata that was never printed on a newer version of a card (Kakita, for instance, draws only one card for the winner of a duel instead of the amount focused), that sometimes has to be considered while playing with older cards, particularly in OBH or a retro format
There's even some stuff like keyword inheritance. For instance, the follower card Ratling Bushi has neither Bushi nor Ratling printed among its keywords in certain printings (importantly its MRP), but those printings existed at a time where keywords could be inherited from the title. Therefore, cards that target Ratling cards consider Ratling Bushi a legal target, because the Ratling in its title is inherited as a keyword
I see... another layer of difficulty for playing legacy, and I wasn't aware of that one...
(ShE) If a card effect were to give someone a keyword while they are the challenger, would that effect last for the entire duel, or only when using an effect that initiates a duel?
I don't quite understand the distinction you're making between the two described scenarios? They seem the same to me, sorry. :/ But a Personality is a "challenger" in a duel for the duel's entire duration, not just a portion of it, if that helps?
duration of the duel AND the "challenger", thus the one who chooses to focus or strike second (if challenged, the keyword would not be applied)
(assuming of course no effect that allows the challenger to focus first)
Ok so the term "challenger" lasts for the duration of the duel, from initiation to the duels end?
Yes. Although, follow-up for [ShE] and maybe any other edition where it may apply: does that include the Response window after the duel is over, and for other editions (if so), any Reaction that could be played after the duel is over?
Well, nobody's perfect and we're only human, but I would hope that any such hypothetical Responses or Reactions referring to the Personality's status as the "challenger" or "challenged" would be worded, or at least read with the understanding, that they're referring to their state during the duel which has now passed.
why assuming that? what would it change?
Marcus was just clarifying his statement that included "who focuses" in his definition of "challenged/challenger" by acknowledging that if who focuses first changes, those definitions wouldn't.
if I define "challenger" as the one who chooses to focus or strike second, then whoever focuses first isn't the challenger. Obviously in hindsight I should have worded that differently in the reply, but it's late so I'm not at peak efficiency
okay I got Your narrative
[OBH Legacy] Follow up question... if I use this stronghold, do I need to explain my opponent every duel that there's an updated text that allows me to equip spells as a battle/open or there is a way for Sun and Moon to display the errata?
[attachment: eg_03.jpg]
No, there's no way to display Oracle/non-MRP-errata Text, but most players playing Legacy would probably already know, or only need to be told once in a lifetime, not every game. 🙂 EDIT: That said, Marcus does make a fine parallel/counter point directly below about etiquette, esp. when it comes to one's Stronghold, a/the key component.
I'd say it's always good form to let your opponent know what the card you're playing does
Most players are veteran enough to know, some few newbies like myself still are learning so will appreciate the reminder
btw what was the time/edition/legality frame for this kind of wording that was cl;ear that any Open action would be also possible to play as a Battle?
I'd say the etiquette even applies to nearly every card particularly in evergreen formats for any and every card game simply due to the size of the cardpool. Sure, some cards are obvious or have been reprinted often enough that the effect is well known, but I'm sure even veterans might not recognize every single card ever printed for their game of choice
Since the beginning of the game, "Open" meant "any action round, Your Action Phase/Other Player's Action Phase/Battle". It was changed in Samurai Edition where Open was altered to only mean the first two, "Action Phase/Other Player's Action Phase" and they explicitly added "Battle/" beside it on the cards when an "Open" was meant to also be usable during "Battle".
In Yu-Gi-Oh (which is a legacy format TCG) it is mandatory for every player to have the means to show the MRP text or the Most Recent Errata text of every card in his deck (side deck included) to the opponent in tournaments (Ofc, since we have the official app Neuron, that stopped being an issue because you simply search for the card in the app - which is linked to your Konami ID, which in turn is linked to your deck lists - and voilá... but back in the day you had to have all the errata text printed, which was a royal pain)
[OBH] Do Wealth tokens increase gold production of reactions like the ones on Luxurious Silk or Barley Farm?
Answers on: Luxurious Silk, Barley Farm
Well, as it stands, the 20F Rules are unfortunately rather unclear and arguably contradictory in regard as to whether +1GP tokens will increase things other than the "Gold Production" stat in the upper right of Holdings and middle-ish right of Strongholds or not, since the stat itself was only introduced in 20F.
But, the existence of the card "Bookkeeper" (and the fact that all of the printed cards that give out +1GP wealth tokens are from pre-20F Ivory except for one anyway) indicates that such a token will indeed increase any Gold Production of any kind on a Holding, be it from a stat, trait, or action. Such a token will not, however, give/create "Gold Production" out of nothing if placed on a Holding that does not produce Gold in any way.
So for the upcoming tournament that's a 'yes'? 😜
For Legacy (and indeed, for Ivory/20F contemporary and arc-simulation as well), it has to be a "yes".
[OBH] Do any of these cards avoid paying the extra costs for bringing a Personality without your clan alignment into play (the +2 cost and/or the reduction for not proclaiming)?
[attachment: printing_1058_1_select.png] [attachment: printing_462_1_select.png] [attachment: printing_3414_1_select.png]
Or is it only the Sanction one?
[attachment: printing_10557_1_select.png]
Only Suikihime's Sanction can target/affect a Personality out of play before you bring them into play/pay for them. The other 3 are all after that fact.
[Imperial-Jade] hi @Brook Cunningham I have a small discovery. I just read in an Anvil of Despair rulebook regarding Bayushi Togai under the Errata page. It reads:
Bayushi Togai: In addition to being able to attach poison cards with out gold cost, he can attach any poison card regardless of that card’s restrictions. You must still pay any non-gold cost.
Can this apply also to Poison Dartgun since it was printed after Togai?
Unfortunately, this errata was superseded by Togai's Obsidian Edition MRP, which they clearly did not properly "future-proof" when applying that errata via actual text, and did so more narrowly than the AoD errata.
[ShE] About The Inheritance Rule, does the +3GP only last one turn? I ask this considering that the loss of your PS is permanent...
Correct, only until end of turn.
And you cannot flip your Stronghold back, right?
Correct (although there may be a card that does it, I forget?). You've really got to judge if the 1 turn of an accelerated economy is worth losing your "going second" benefits. Consider, though, the going second benefits are balanced to compensate for being 1 turn "behind" the person going first, so you should look at it as trading one "running-1-turn-behind compensation benefit" for another.
I see, I see. Thank you!!!
Shrine of Courtesy, iirc, allows you to flip your Stronghold
It's in GoT if I recall correctly
[CE] Equip is an open action in this format, right?
as far as I can remember no
unless the item specifically said you could
Oh, so Equip as Open was introduced in Emperor?
no
20F
No
Equip in Emperor was Battle/Open
was a limited action
You're right, it was Limited/Battle()
again there were items and spell that could be equiped in battle
Well, Battle was for spells only
the spell had to say it could be equipped in battle
of some sort of effect
No, any spell applied
[attachment: Captura.JPG]
Guess I was thinking City of Tears for Phoenix clan
For some reason I was thinking I was one of the SH for Phoenix in emperor
BTW, Equip was changed to an open action since Ivory I just confirmed it with the rulebook
[legacy] https://images.oracleofthevoid.com/l5r/1d/51/printing_964_2_details.jpg Besieged Borderland would give 2F to all opposed shadowlands non unique personalities?
as long as they don't share a Clan Alignment. Shadowlands is not a Clan Alignment. There are some Shadowlands Personalities that have a Clan Alignment (lots of Spider Clan Personalities, most obviously)
https://images.oracleofthevoid.com/l5r/58/d5/printing_10275_1_details.jpg
[EE] If Renyu is in play and I bring a personality out Do I still need to pay the full amount even if Renyu reduces the cost to be able to proclaim?
Please edit with [format] tag.
In Emperor you can't Proclaim only if you use Clan Discount.
(Proclaim) Reaction: After you bring a Personality in your province with your Clan alignment into play without Clan discount, if it is your turn: Gain Honor equal to his base Personal Honor.
So you may Proclaim with Renyu's cost reduction.
Does it change in OBH?
in OBH Proclaim is:
Proclaim Interrupt: During your turn, after you Recruit a personality with your Clan Alignment from a province, gain honor equal to that personality’s personal honor.
and
Clan Discount Rule
Personalities with your Clan Alignment can be brought into play for 2 less gold; you may not take the Proclaim Player Ability on recruiting those personalities.
So it works in nearly same way.
So with Renyu's discount I can proclaim then?
I figure because Renyu is reducing the cost not the clan discount
Yes.
[ShE] What is the rulebook honor ability mentioned in this card?
[attachment: Sin_titulo.jpg]
I don't have it handy to copy/paste, but it's on the Onyx Rules Datasheet. The one where you discard an Honor card as an Interrupt to change a gain or loss.
Ahhhh ok, ok, ok, thanks
[attachment: image.png]
👍
Just for added clarification: there's a once-per-action limit that was introduced in Onyx, you'll find it on the rules datasheet
Answers on: Genshin Sensei
Granted, you can't use it with Genshin Sensei anyway, but if you do want to build a deck around the Honor keyword that's something to keep in mind
Right. In Onyx per the Rules, all Repeatable Interrupts can only be taken once per action unless they explicitly say otherwise in their text (note that you can dump multiple Courage cards to affect a single Fear effect).
Ok, so I can dump multiple honor cards to affect a single honor action too, right? But afterward, I cannot interrupt again for the rest pf the turn, right?
No, just 1.
Why the repeatable then?
You can use it multiple times per turn, but only once per action you're Interrupting.
So, courage interrupt allows me to dump several cards to a single action once per turn, while honor interrupt allows me to interrupt several times per turn with only one card, am I right?
Sorry my initial answer was unclear. 1 Honor card dump per time you use the Interrupt, and you can only use it once per action, but you can Interrupt as many different actions per turn as you want.
No, Courage Interrupt allows you to dump a single card, but you can keep repeatedly Interrupting the same action (contrary to the general Rule, because of its text).
Oh, I see, the wording is different in each case
ShE - Engage with Personal Assassin, then target with Tsai... this would give the target enough tokens that they die... are they dishonored when they die?
[attachment: image.png] [attachment: image.png]
Answers on: Personal Assassin
Hola, in ShE Wen you flip the stronhold their no More 3 gold?
I'll have to check the CR which I don't have handy for all the finicky timing on that. Will post again when I can.
The Reminder text has been removed, but the ability to do so remains in the Onyx Rules Datasheet.
[legacy] [Test of the Jade Champion] If you cannot discard a card, can you still target a personality and gain the jade champion?
[attachment: image.png]
Answers on: Test of the Jade Champion
Yes. If you choose to target your Shugenja and discard but the discard fails because you can't for whatever reason, the rest of the effects still happen.
The original DJH wording is clearer that you target, then you may focus once for it.
Whereas the latter add an "and" in there.
Please add [edition/format] tag.
[Imperial] Can a player skip a battle action phase? Regarding Dark Oracle Of Water, does my opponent (or player in general) need to declare an attack on a province so I can use its reaction?
So, the answer is that the targeting will "find" and target the Personality to dishonor before dishonoring them, triggering their receiving of the tokens directly after the targeting, before the dishonor, which kill them immediately, and only after then will the dishonor effect happen to them, in the discard after they're already dead, so no, they do not die dishonorably.
Thank you
Correct. The player whose turn it is can opt to skip the Attack Phase, so no attack is declared.
If you are not attacked, you cannot trigger the Dark Oracle of Water, as there was never an attack. Ditto for things like Counterattack, and similar effects.
It's why people had to run Events to force your opponent to attack (very few of those), or in the case of needing to get Ring of Earth out, Armor of Osano-Wo.
[OBH Legacy] What is the meaning of the errata that added repeatable to the action? Does that mean that if I have ways to get the Imperial Favor back after discarding it for the action, I am able to use the action again to draw 2, 3, etc, additional cards in my next end phase??
[attachment: Totori_Sezaru.JPG]
It's not errata, per se, but yes, that's what it means. All abilities pre-Lotus Edition were Any Number of Times Per Turn (ANOTPT) by default per the Rules, as long as you could pay the cost repeatedly (discarding the Favor in this case, or bowing the card the ability was on in many others; the fact was, it wasn't a big issue in those environments because there were not that many ways to get the Favor back/unbow).
I see. Thanks!!
[CE] If the personality is already dishonorable, can they be targeted?
[attachment: image.png]
rephased; what happen if the personality is already dishonorable?
Yes.
Everything it says, except if it tries to dishonor the Personality, that will fail because they already are. Otherwise, everything else happens.
so basically, if they are already dishonored is kill it (and gain 4 honor) or lose 2 honor
Right. Same choice, but no dishonor to go along with the lose 2 because they already are.
ShE - Anybody know why this has compassion?
[attachment: image.png]
Just thematic flavor.
lol ok
[legacy] Imperial taxation against border keep in turn 1 (cost 0) I must bow BK or my SH to produce 0 gold and avoid the destruction?
[attachment: printing_3712_1_details.png]
[attachment: image.png]
Ok, I did not remember that point. and after the first turn? For a 0 cost holding you must bow a holding?
No. It costs 0. To save it from Taxation, they'd have to Produce/Pay an equal amount of Gold; 0.
So, they'd have to bow nothing.
Ok. Thanks 🙂
[Imperial] Are spells also action cards?
Nope.
"Action card" was the name for the red-faced cards, later known as "Strategies".
[Imperial]
If I use Fight For My Favor against a lobbying personality and I win the duel and I use Utter Defeat so it doesn't die, can I still react with Political Mistake, targeting the personality?
This is a difficult question to answer from an Imperial-Rules perspective, and also highlights that my Oracle wording of "Fight For My Favor" may be incomplete, due to its original wording being somewhat loosey goosey and me not filling in all the gaps. 😛 Also, the Oracle text of none of the cards was written from a "Classic Lobbying" perspective, so it is hard to judge what may be considered a "success" or not from Politcal Mistake's perspective in an Imperial environment, and also because "success" itself is/was ill-defined in any contemporary Rulebook, only implicitly (but not explicitly) tied to outmoded concepts like "canceling" being somehow distinct and different than negation.
I understand. I just thought of it as the personality who lobbied but lost in the duel 'failed' to fight for his/her favor thus making it a valid target for political mistake.
But me personally when I thought of that 'combo' I say to myself it's too complex for its time
You're trying to play with way too much jank. 🙂
Yeah I know. I have a TON but now I'm shy to ask. Too much jank.
It's fine, ask away. Reminds me of good times during Imperial.
I've come up with a few crazy things myself.
Just wait 'til you hear about Chasing the Shadow. 😉
And there was a card that prevented your FH from changing for a turn.
Oh wow lol now all I wanna know is how can I throw that 20 honor loss to my opponent
That's the spirit!
Goshiu + NSS + Chasing the Shadow == fun
[Imperial] As per the Accumulated Rulings on Geisha Assassin being 'affected like a true personality', can I react with Martyr when the Assassin dies in the duel?
Answers on: Geisha Assassin, Martyr
That... depends. The updated Oracle wording talks about removing the Geisha Assassin from play after the duel ends. The question is whether the result of the duel, i.e. the Geisha Assassin losing the duel and being destroyed as a consequence, happens first, or the remove-from-play text.
However, Martyr's wording actually kinda implies that you wouldn't want to use it as a response to Geisha Assassin losing, because "the card that performed the action that destroyed yours, or the card that created the effect that destroyed him" would reference the Geisha Assassin itself, as you'd cause yourself to lose that 5 Honour.
Yes, you can. Just because she's RFG/gone doesn't mean she wasn't "your Personality" when she died from the duel.
But... um, yeah, saaam is right. Your card that created the duel killed her if she lost. 😛
Oh so I get the honor loss from Martyr? I just thought 'that destroyed' mean the winner of the duel
Answers on: Martyr
And actually, the targeted "fault" card has to have a "controller" or "performer" and the Geisha Assassin Strategy doesn't.
So, yeah, you can't react with Martyr to Geisha Assassin because there's no legal "card at fault" target for Martyr, regardless of her being "your" Personality when she died.
[Imperial] Another for Accumulated Ruling for A Coward's Way: "The second Personality does nothing beyond contributing a Chi bonus and sharing the consequences of losing." Is dying a consequence of losing?
Any effect that is "X happens to the loser" is a consequence of losing.
I just answered my own follow up question as I type this: I can't react with Utter Defeat to the second Personality since it wasn't a participant in the duel
Or can I?
Yeah you can't, the second Personality didn't lose a duel or die because they did. They died because A Coward's Way applied the effects of losing to them too.
I knew these were too good to be true. Thanks
Answers on: Avoid Fate, Kachiko's Kiss
[Imperial] Can I use Avoid Fate on the 2nd showing of my Kachiko's Kiss?
Don't see why not. Nothing prohibiting it.
Yeah, same answer as saaam; I don't see why you'd think not? :/
Nice. So it goes back to my Dynasty and favor is still removed from the game
Until it comes up again, yep.
Or you find a way to nuke it.
Augury + Aramoro!
(It was dumb in Clan Wars. Got easier later on.)
This is the only instance where I am happy my province get destroyed by my opponent lol
[Imperial] Does the Peasant Defense dishonor come after the honor gains from battle resolution?
Not sure if this follows the Accumulated Ruling on Timing: "Battle resolution" includes only the destruction of the losing army and, if necessary, the Province. The bowing of attacking and allied units happens immediately after resolution, in a separate step.
Ugh. Super poor wording on the original printing. The updated text makes it sound like you'd do the Battle Resolution first, square up the Honour gain from your defender being crushed, then dishonour all of the Units that were involved in that Battle's Resolution on the attacking side.
I wish it works that way! I personally think it does
Yeah, I'm pretty sure they're supposed to stay dishonored from the Terrain, not immediately rehonor if they killed even 1 measily defending card.
Nice! I can finally use that card. My playgroup says it just rehonors their army so I hesitate
You tell 'em that someone on the Internet says they're wrong, so they must be wrong!
Avoid Fate Under the optional "each Event only happens once" rule, Avoid Fate cannot be played in reaction to the second or later appearance of an Event which has already resolved. [DW, l5rinfo, 9/3/96]
But geisha and martyr was a legal combo years ago. At least was legal in an European Tournament in 2003. (Sorry, is in spanish) https://forolavozakasha.mforos.com/42408/764159-faceless/?pag=2#9801880
[FACELESS??????????]
I think this refers to if example an Inheritance has resolved on my Dynasty and later on my opponent’s turn their own Inheritance shows up
@saaam That doesn't apply to Kachiko's Kiss. What it means is there's no legal trigger for Avoid Fate because the Event isn't going to Resolve a second time under that Rule, but Kiss does re-resolve, even under that Rule.
@saaam I guess there is a fair point here. Martyr's Oracle text interprets it under more modern Rules, but there was no concept of "performing" in Imperial/Clan War, so then, I suppose it could be used on either side of a duel; otherwise, with no "performing" Rules, a strict reading of the card means it couldn't be used in duels at all.
And the 2003 Euro Ruling predates the Oracle, so probably also used this rationale. I should probably fix Martyr's Oracle text, given that it's clearly an older rewording, from back when the game was not dead and my goal was more modernizing all the cards based on how they physically read, rather than best preserving all their original function.
I do not about a specific rules in 2003, I know that the faceless deck from a spanish player have that combo as a cheap way to generate honor losses (There is a little explanation about the deck in the post #38)
Yeah, I'm not disagreeing or calling any of that into question. Mostly the opposite, in fact. 🙂
I know, I know.
[Legacy] Egg of Pan'ku - When does it go to the discard pile?
It becomes the Personality card it copies and stays in play until destroyed, then it goes to the Fate discard and reverts back to its identity as a Strategy.
Thank you!
My opponent's card says "draw a card from the action" but, as seen, mine does not say "from an action." Which is it supposed to be? [Bayushi Osamu] [ShE]
[attachment: image.png]
👉 Please tag your rules questions with [edition/format] you are asking for. Please use square brackets like [SE], [OBH], [20F] etc. TiA.
[Every edition] or [MRP]?
This version of Osamu is the most recent version, so he would trigger after you draw a card, action or not
[ShE] would be most appropriate in this circumstance
Thanks
So use [OBH], [Legacy], [Open] - but it should be in the post.
ShE/Onyx printings aren't considered as MRP in formats except in Onyx/ShE itself.
[Onyx] Is also doable. Since it's a digital/print-n-play only format, never having seen a physical release, cards from the Onyx Lives project are not currently legal in any generally played legacy format like OBH or Modern
[Jade]
Can I use Fu Leng's Skull's Open ability to straighten an already unbowed Shadowlands card?
I don't know how it works in Imperial, but in later editions you may, but it doesn't create effect of straightening.
Yes. @kempy_nezumi I'm fairly certain that's true for all Editions and there was never any implicit Rule that actions had to do something to be legal to take (see Philosopher).
[OBH Legacy] I bowed the spell and gave my personality 3F, what happens with that force bonus if my opponent destroys the spell afterward?
[attachment: Sin_titulo.jpg]
Nothing changes.
So, the force bonus stays, right?
Until the end of the turn per default duration of ongoing effects, yes.
Got it, thanks
[OBH Legacy] Can I use this Battle without presence?
[attachment: Sin_titulo.jpg]
And what about if I am using this Sensei? [OBH Legacy]
[attachment: 0333.jpg]
No.
What does that Sensei have to do with that card? It's a Region, not a Fortification. :/
For the Sensei I am referring to this fortification, sorry @Brook Cunningham
[attachment: 0141.jpg]
Answers on: The Sensei
[OBH Legacy] Can I use that fortification without presence with or without that Sensei?
Not in either case, no.
Got it, thanks
With the sensei you could use it in a battle where you have presence at a different province then where the fortification is attached. Or if you have Garrison at any province you could use it without presence...
[attachment: printing_2777_1_select.png]
[OBH Legacy] Does this Stronghold reduce the GC for this spell's investments? and Can I pay to apply more than one of the investment's options when attaching it (for example, Conqueror and + 2F)?
[attachment: Sin_titulo.jpg] [attachment: Stronghold_Phoenix_Legacy.JPG]
[attachment: Screenshot_20250418_211429_Files_by_Google.jpg]
Each Invest is a separate entity, independent of each other except by being on the same card. Therefore, yes, you can opt for multiple of the invests, and if you have the gold, even all of them.
Because Invest (X) means "increase GC permanently by X", they are in turn affected by other cards that affect GC, such as Morikage Toshi in this case affecting the spell's GC.
The few exceptions that DO exists have text on the card that specify that their Invest cost cannot be reduced.
Legacy: If an effect dishonors this guy, and it says he can't rehonor... what happens if he uses his ability that gains honor?
[attachment: image.png]
The Honor gain will be substituted for rehonoring, then the Rehonoring will be negated by the "can't" and neither happens.
thank you
Is it the same in [Imperial] also? With cards like Utter Defeat
Legacy: Does this force a player to run at least 49 cards, if they put 9 oni under it?
[attachment: image.png]
no you can play 40
if you had to play more cards, the card would mention it, i think. [I thought wrong]
it says "your deck must still be legal" which is why I ask... not sure how to interpret that
Looking at the updated text from The Oracle, your deck needs to remain legal after your select 0 to 9 Oni from it to stick under the Sensei.
I mean, it is legally constructed... how am I supposed to interpret the meaning of that?
"...such that your deck remains legally constructed afterward." The player's deck would need to run extra cards past 40 to compensate for however many they put under the Sensei. So if you put 9 Oni underneath, you would need to start with a 49 card deck
Thats what I was asking. so thats how I will interpret it I suppose.
Same.
Legacy: This doesn't have "remote" or "home" so he has to target someone at his province, and must be at the province being resolved to actually target with this? I am so lost on this reaction.
[attachment: printing_8572_1_details.png]
It's a Lotus card, not ShE.
I typed legacy... obviously.
Reactions are not beholden to the Rules of Presence or Location.
Ok thank you
Legacy: What happens if you don't find one?
[attachment: image.png]
Nothing. Province refills normally and life goes on. 🙂
Legacy: If he is at home and bowed, can he then be destroyed? or can he just... not be destroyed unless the black scroll has been destroyed?
[attachment: printing_2970_1_details.png]
The latter.
so he gets destroyed, goes home bowed, then if they... hired killer him or something, because he can't bow he dies?
No. Your latter statement. He cannot be destroyed at all unless the 12thBkack Scroll has been. Being already at home and/or bowed does not prevent the substitution.
How does "joining" work in legacy?
No different. I don't have the 20F CR handy, but I think it's defined there as "become controlled by".
What happens if he has -10 chi?
I believe that should kill him. As I recall, there is a clause about Chi death that it can only be overcome by continuous prevention of death, not one-time prevention. The Hantei's is a one-time substitution; granted, it's one-time every time, but that is not the same as continuous.
lol yeah otherwise it would be an infinite loop
[Legacy] If I play Aftershock as response to an action with more than one effect like Claw and Shell, what effect is applied to my opponent choice?
Answers on: Aftershock, Claw and Shell
[attachment: image0.jpg] [attachment: image1.jpg]
[OBH] [BigDeck] - tag please
Reactions don't work like Interrupts/Responses. You're not Reacting to the action, you're reacting to the specific trigger, in this case, your Personality being destroyed, bowed, or moved. Therefore, it would be whichever effect it was.
Thanks 🙂
[OBH] The google drive III.CARD TYPE documents refers to II.THE PLAYER (Ancestral Guidance (see II. THE PLAYER - D. Player Abilities and Traits). However this is not in the folder, where can I find this and I.TURN SEQUENCE MAYBE for that matter? Is there an overarching drive folder I'm not finding?
I've deleted those files from google drive as they were just pdf versions of those documents: (link)
So at this moment priority of documents is following:
1) ClickUp documents - if there's something missing there we check -> 2) OBH pdf and/or single appendix files in dropbox / google drive - if there's something missing there we check -> 3) Twenty Festivals and then Emperor Edition Comprehensive Rules.
Is there (any way to make) a single overarching page linking to the 5 ClickUp documents? It's so much easier to sell playing this game to people if you can just send them one link for the rules, and let's face it for us as players it would be handy to have everything in one place too...
Hell, throw in a link to oracle as well if it's not in there yet...
[OBH] Does Private trader produce 3 gold when paying for Building Contract?
[attachment: printing_6071_1_select.png] [attachment: printing_12224_1_select.png]
Answers on: Building Contract, Private Trader
Yes.
But not for Peace because there the cost is not part of the action?
Or also for Peace?
Right. Not Peace, because it has not undergone an 'Ivory/20F' conversion in Oracle (and probably never will), the "paying all costs" is not part of the action's own cost.
[Legacy,Lotus] if I attack provinces A,B y C and play Broad Front from A to B y from C to B. I need more force than the army + PS (A+B) and army + PS (B+C). Can I destroy 3 province in a single turn? I do not remember rulings for Broad Front in Lotus (excepting about Raids)
Answers on: Broad Front
Ok, I had in my mind that every broad front are separated effects and compare between de two provinces, not the total you target
Sorry, i deleted my answer after i reread BF.
I am not sure now.
Dont worry, when I read the card I have my doubts also. And I can not remember anything from lotus and this card 😦
Yeah, I'm pretty sure you can double (or even triple) Broad Front, and all the Provinces will go splat if your army can just take 2 total (Your Army F > enemy Army + B (+ A + C + D, each compared separately by each separate BF effect)).
@kempy_nezumi If there's anything conflicting Ruling-wise, it might be in your Forum archives, but from just reading, I think it works, unless I'm missing something.
Hmmm… looks like you can destroy 4 provinces if you played 3. Does this also override those raid battles? Also does work for created battlefields not in a province?
[attachment: image.png]
^^ Does not override the restrictions of Raid Battles, nor battles not at Provinces.
Hrm. Looks like BF's Oracle text is exactly the same as printed. Should probably alter it for clarity and agreement with that Ruling, that it's conditional upon the resolution actually destroying any Provinces that it will eat both instead of just one. 😛 Probably the finickiness of that was why I never got around to touching t in the first place.
[attachment: image.png]
Nice
In Legacy can be doable.
It is doable even in Lotus with old good Sachika / Reinforcements Arrive combination.
Anyway, this OBH Mantis Ashigaru Swarm deck is just a variation of this stuff.
2x Sachika after RA + BF = 16F army
I do not know why, but I had in my memory that Sachika had an errata.
No.
Ashigaru swarm was a Lion deck in late Lotus. With original Hall of Ancestors you even had a free 2F Follower every turn thanks to "dead" Akodo Mirotai
[attachment: printing_8117_2_details.png]
[attachment: printing_249_1_details.png]
or free Sneak Attack / Harpoon if you used Hachigoro
Yeah, i know, that SH was top
Was a sad day when was nerfed
It was changed. Another version of HoA is just different Stronghold with same name. I don't consider it as a nerf - it just required different game play and was more versatile. I think they should print it as different name Stronghold anyway.
[ShE] Shugenja is not a boldface keyword, right?
Correct. It stopped being one in 20F and remains as such in Onyx Lives.
[OBH Legacy] Where I can see the rules about combining range attacks?
Legacy/OBH: Overlaying from Unbound Essence, do I pay any costs or does unbound essence just do it?
Answers on: Unbound Essence
[attachment: image.png]
Do entering play effects happen? etc if they are dishonored when overlayed, are they dishonored when they enter?
Overlay doesnt cost. Status of overlayed card is same like dishonored. Overlaying doesnt trigger entering play effects.
ok so it's using the current way of overlaying, not the weird pay the difference
got it
[OBH] I was reading the 20f rule book for something unrelated, and I noticed a line on ranged and melee attacks that said they can be combined. Is this just a thing I can do? In previous editions I needed another effect to combine ranged attacks
No, it was a Rulebook thing in previous Editions too.
EDIT: most previous Editions; it was gone for some
You can combine from cards innthe same unit
combine within each category, so ranged with ranged, melee with melee. You cannot combine them with each other, as in, melee with ranged. Just adding that for the sake of redundancy
[ShE] I have a Shugenja at home with Flame's Protection attached, then, during a battle, my opponent who is attacking (I have no presence in that province) uses Kanpeki Wind's battle to move my shugenja to the battlefield. Can I use Flame's protection to negate that or do I need to have presence to use that interrupt? So far I know, interrupt triggers always once their conditions are met and Kanpeki targetting my shugenja meets the spell condition
Answers on: Flame's Protection
[attachment: Sin_titulo.jpg] [attachment: 0014.jpg]
Interrupts in cards in units without "Home" or "Remote" can't be used at Home during battle.
Interrupts and Responses are bound by the Rules of Presence and Location.
That's good for clarity, and I'm familiar with the from the same unit, but the 20f comprehensive rules didn't have a restrictions listed with combining and that looked wierd
So if during the open my shugenja is targeted for a duel, I cannot use flame's protection either?
The personality is at home too
The Rules of Presence and Location are only active during battles. EDIT: I edited my first answer to add more specifics, but some were implied given the question.
"home vs home" outside of battle is the same location, so to speak
[ShE] I see... and what about traits? Do those follow the rules of presence and location too?
Nope.
Got it, I thought that applied for anything that triggered... ok, ok, I'll have that in mind from now on then
Thanks!!
(OBH) can you win through enlightenment if you put a ring using togashi's guidance ? ( discard a ring, put it back in play )
Answers on: Togashi's Guidance
Technically, Interrupts and Responses aren't triggered. They just have conditions under which you can take them which look like triggers.
Ohhhhh I see... I see, ok, that's a better way to see the whole pictures. Thanks!
but only if you discard it through an action, not at the end of you round
turn
No, there's a specific OBH Rule that Rings must enter play by their own text to count for Enlightenment with an exception only for Strongholds/pregame cards.
ah !!
Also, the Oracle text of those Celestials has a prohibition on top of that.
yu mean the oracle of the void
Answers on: Oracle of the Void
[ShE] Follow up question... if I have one personality at the battlefield, my opponent uses Kanpeki's battle to move my shugenja at home to that battlefield, can I use flame's protection (the spell is attached to my shugenja at home) in that scenario? I now have presence, even though is via another personality
Answers on: Flame's Protection
Yes. OBH Rules are to follow the card text from Oracle of the Void if it differs from printed.
ah good to know
Presence isn't the issue; Location is the problem.
So, my shugenja is pretty much doomed if I leave her at home... got it... flame's protection is weaker than I thought... especially now that it is not free...
Thanks again!
ShE question: if i use phoenix stronghold side a ability, can i then destroy shrine of courtesy to flip it, and use the stronghold side b ability?
Answers on: Shrine of Courtesy
my innitial guess is no
I think AND vote for yes
I would also say yes, but I am not sure
Yes, you can; it's a different ability, just like two separate abilities printed on the same side of 1 card, they're just on 2 different sides. 😛
ShE rules datasheet: I can't find the part that says you can flip your stronghold to get +3 to a holding GP. It says, under Strongholds: "The player going first begins the game with the “Sun” side face up (one clan mon, black border). The player going second uses the “Moon” side (two clan mons, white border). The Sun and Moon aspects of your Stronghold may have different stats and/or abilities; almost always, the Moon side has an advantage which is intended to compensate for the player going second. Starting on the Moon side gives you access to the "
and then it is blank after that. Maybe it was going to be the continuation of the last sentence?
You're looking at an older copy. That omission has been corrected.
Thanks, does anyone have the latest version please?
its not on the google drive?
It is in the Public Google drive.
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/18LNXb9oBvRjEEr2hH4zMmIeOUrxmdB77
^ a player
Thanks, very helpful
there is a hyperlink that will go to the propper rule
[CE] With this card, you still need to have rule of presence to use it right?
[attachment: image.png]
Yes. And proper CE printing is here:
[attachment: printing_3743_2_details.jpg]
(OBH) just to be clear, players actions can be used once per turn, say only on proclaim, only one lobby, only one equip action ?
oups equip is repeatable
ok it looks i found my answer !
Yes. Equip and Recruit are Repeatable.
(OBH) the legality tag in the deck construction must be 20F or ivory or ? ( i think i don't have the correct rings)
or can i choose the ring i want ? sounds like cheating a bit...
So far I know OBH uses MRP for rings
and mrp is most recent print, that meaning... the one displayed on oracle ?
ok
You must use mrp for every card. Oracle shows texts adaptes to 20f and is considered mrp. I think appears in the instructions for the tournament
so it confirms that 20F is the reference set for obh right
or legacy
Use Legacy tag as legality. In default SnM database it also shows most recent (Twenty Festivals) versions of reprints.
yes
[CE] Is home considered a location?
[attachment: image.png]
Yes.
Home and battlefields are locations. Nothing else, though.
[CE] Can this card target an already dishonored personality?
[attachment: image.png]
No, the extra colon at the end of the line shows it is a cost
You cannot dishonor an already dishonored personality
as a cost. You may do it as an effect.
I was about to say
If it's an effect, there is no double dishonored, you simply stay dishonored
[OBH] Govern the Land: Can it target a Fortification and fetch/attach it?
Same question for Daikoku's Guidance.
Comprehensive Rules, page 78 (emphasis mine):
"FORTIFICATION # When brought into play, Holdings with the Fortification keyword are attached to the Province they entered play from, or to any of their player’s Provinces if they were not brought in from a Province."
(Although, it's technically cheating since Fortifications didn't exist in Emperor and Celestial. 😉 JK)
Ahh. Missed that, my bad. Thank you!
[CE] if target an already dishonored personality, do they still lose 2 honor?
[attachment: image.png]
Yes.
This is a good example of dishonoring as an effect, compared to your earlier question, btw
i see, in the other example, dishonor the personality was part of the cost, if you cant not "pay" that, it make sense you can not use it
Exactly
[Jade] Armor of Earth vs The Dark Path of Shadows: Infinite action loop?
If both players (moreso the DPoS player, IMHO) are infinitely stubborn, then technically "yes". But that situation is a Floor Rules governance, not a Game-Rules one, so not my area of expertise. Let me see if Kempy has a Floor Rules in the Dropbox that addresses it....
Well, while I could not find a specific reference to this scenario in Examples, I believe most TOs/Judges would agree it would fall under "Stalling" in the Code of Bushido; the Dark Path of Shadow player purposely taking an action repeatedly that they know cannot change the Game State (without their opponent willingly disadvantaging themself by not Reacting).
[OBH] Does something like Supply Smugglers work to make 3G for Moneylender?
yes
And another question along similar lines to my other question just posted in the Onyx Rules channel: If I use Walk With the Elements to bring Togashi's Daisho into play, can I bring it into play without gold cost and can I attach it to my personality? The comprehensive rules say that "Attachments may only enter play by being attached to a Personality", so even if the equip action is not being used and gold cost is not being paid it appears from the comprehensive rules that I can put it on someone for free?
Answers on: Walk with the Elements, Togashi's Daisho
No. The CR says, "Attachments may only enter play by being attached to a Personality, [and] are discarded if in play and not attached to a Personality" so trying to bring the Daisho in by those means would just have it discarded.
Thanks, my understanding of that clause is that if the personality they are attached somehow leaves play, the attachment gets discarded. Eg: Someone uses Bad Death of Hida Daizu on my personality. However the Rules statement above seems to be talking about entering play. You are suggesting the Daisho can enter play without being attached, and since it is not attached it must be discarded. But would that be in conflict with the sentence in the Rules that prevent it from coming into play at all unless it is attached to someone?
You'd be cheating a Ring into play, so it entered as though it were a Ring. Once it has entered, it "notices" it's an attachment that isn't attached to a Personality, and is thus immediately discarded
I suppose I didn't really think about the first part of my quote preventing the second part. There's not really much cause for the second part to even exist if it does (there are other Rules that if a Personality leaves play, their attached cards leave play the same way, so Bad Death would banish all attachments, not discard them). Either way, the Daisho's not getting into play attached using a "put a Ring into play" action. 😛
So you are saying that for the purposes of Walk With the Elements, the Daisho is only a Ring, not both ie: not a Ring and an Attachment at the same time. My recollection is that some cards refer to "non-attachment Ring cards" but Walk isn't one of those so is there a rule that states its attachment status is denied by Walk's ability?
Thanks for clarification about Bad Death. I still feel that there are many effects that may simply destroy a personality and then their attachments must leave play. I suppose I can reconcile your suggestion about the Daisho with the idea that Walk doesn't actually "attach" the Daisho so it can't enter play this way. I prefer this to thinking that it would be discarded since it appears to break the Rules about attachments entering play.
I'm just saying "Walk" doesn't attach it to anybody. It just puts it into play by its lonesome. As an Attachment, it can't be, so off to the discard it goes.
Thanks. I also asked a question in the Onyx rules channel, is it ok if I ask it here as well: Way of the Dragon: If I put it into play with its open action, it discards my other edicts in play, but what if I put it into play with Tamori Tsushima's response action instead? Can I have two or more copies in play and do they have a cumulative effect? ie: +2 lobby bonus for each ring and look at top 2 cards of fate deck at start of turn?
Answers on: Way of the Dragon
Well, that's not intended, but technically works as things currently stand. The Designers are discussing whether it's deformative enough to warrant errata.
Hmm ok thanks for the clarification, I will await further discussion!
Oh, and while the Lobby bonus would be cumulative, the top card is always just the top card, so you don't get more for having 2 of that trait active unless you deck-bottom it, then there's a new top card when it triggers again.
In the meantime I may try it to see how effective it is. If I actually have a Ring in hand, I suspect it would be better to play this instead with the Response, but there are many times when Tsushima pops up and I have no ring and don't need the 2/2 Yojimbo instead. Thanks for the clarification about the top card, so it only works if the first top card went to the bottom of the deck.
Right; having 2 copies of that trait in play makes it trigger once for each copy, but if you don't choose to bottom the top card the first time, you're just looking at the same card again the second time.
[OBH Legacy] Ok, this old cards always confuse me... let's see if I'm getting this card correctly... I play it, then I can make use all the effects available to perform as many ras as I like killing as many personalities as I can, right? Now, each ra is treated separately for reactions and responses, right? and once that is resolved I launch the next ra, right?
[attachment: Blackened_Sky.jpg]
and why it says I can do that before the next player takes an open action if the card's effect is battle ?
becasue before Samurai edition, you could play Open action during battles
that's why in Oracle nearly all Open actions from pre-Samurai cards have Open/Battle now
Note that you can't take Reactions unless they make a Ranged Attack themself (not just modify one). But Interrupts are fine (which would be how you would combine any of them, potentially).
But yeah, you're basically getting "additional action" after "additional action" as long as they're all RA actions until you choose to stop or run out.
Wait, wait, wait, what????? OMG If I can interrupt them, then I can combined them too, right? WOW... and what about the opponent?, he is allowed to react with anything that fits, right? I think that constraint is only for me as the one who played the card
Yes, the other player can React and Interrupt all they want.
And it's a double-edged sword that it doesn't prevent your own Interrupts, because it's from before they existed. So, if you have an Interrupt that gives an RA +2 str, that would've likely been illegal in Gold because it probably would've been a Reaction, but on the other hand, combining in Gold was just a "thing you could do" that wasn't tied to Reacting or any other action, so from that perspective, the fact it doesn't prohibit Interrupts is on-point.
So, my own reactions are limited, but the interrupts (to potentially combined the ras) are not, right? and what about the responses, those are not limited, right?
there are no Responses in OBH
Ohhhhhhh, ok, ok, ok... it's hard to keep track of all the mechanics in all the editions...
Thanks a lot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ENJOY!
I've just been thinking about banishing attachments and I wonder if there is a problem with Togashi's Daisho since it counts as a Ring for actions and actions cannot banish Rings unless they specifically say they can... so would this mean the Bad Death of Hida Daizu cannot target a personality with the Daisho?
Well, just having an unbanishable attachment shouldn't protect the whole unit; I suppose there we might have a situation where we have to invoke the "attachment is in play without a Personality" discard clause. But that said, the anti-Ring-banishment thing is a fairly new Rule, probably not intended to work with not-actually-Rings; I'll forward that along to Design also. 🙂
Thanks, I guess this is an important issue because other cards for example VTD could maybe also fail to banish Togashi's Daisho if it is in my discard pile. I guess Way of the Dragon is also unbanishable by my opponent from VTD.
Yeah, it could very likely be concluded that while not intended, interactions like being immune to VtD are not so deformative that the Rule needs any altering from its current state.
The idea that a whole unit could be banished except for the Daisho makes sense as the Daisho is a semi-mystical item anyway... and it could therefore come back into play with effects like the Tireless Battle of Forgotten Mine while the rest of the unit is forgotten forever. The unbanishability of the Daisho and Way of the Dragon is only applicable to the action part of VTD. The trait focus effect could still banish them because they only count as rings for actions.
Togashi Order Sensei: Does it take away Duelist from my Monks that have it printed on their card, if they get a weapon?
Answers on: Togashi Order Sensei
No.
Just thinking a bit more about this: Way of the Dragon exp could be put into play by a non-Dragon Clan player by using Walk with the Elements or by playing Tsushima out of clan. They could also have it in play at the same time as their own clan specific "Way of the X" edict provided they put their own clan one into play first. If this is considered weird enough to warrant errata, I guess one way to do it would be to remove the "This Strategy counts as a Ring for actions" clause from the card.
[CE] If the target personality later have a +1F for other actions, do they still have 0F for that turn?
[attachment: image.png]
No
Reducing the Force to 0 will give a one-time penalty appropriate to do so. Force can be adjusted after by other effects.
Some actions will check on a printed stat to be able to do the action so having example 0 Force don’t mean that the action can’t be done but most likely can’t do the desired effect
[CE] If I have 2 copies of that spell, can both of them create a weapon once per game?
[attachment: Sin_titulo.jpg]
Yes the weapon is not Unique be different if it was.
[All} In which formats you can combine range attacks aside from ShE, Legacy, 20F, Onyx, and Ivory?
Not exactly. "Unique" checks titles, which created cards don't have. It would have to give the created card Unique and a title for a conflict to arise.
Definitely Imperial through Lotus. I think it was dropped from Samurai through Celestial, but I don't have the Rulebooks handy to double check.
Also, you forgot 20F and Onyx on your list of "can", which are slightly different than Ivory and ShE respectively.
You're right, I'll fix that
So, you are not 100% sure about Celestial... and what about Emperor?
Pretty sure it was dropped in EE and CE, less certain about Samurai, but fairly certain they streamlined it out in that Edition. If you CTRL-F their Rulebook PDFs for "Ranged" and/or "combin", you should be able to verify if the Rules included that or not
I see, I'll check that, thanks!
There was no Ranged combining in CE or EE
[OBH] curious about the order in which reactions resolve if each player tries to react to the same window. For example i flip an event during my turn and my opponent tries to cancel it with forewarning. if i want to avoid fate my own event to shuffle it back in when is my window to react? to use magic terms. do i need to flip my event. hold priority. and avoid fate it myself. or can i flip the event ask my opponent if it resolves and if he plays forewarning i can then avoid fate?
Normally the active player which is the one taking the turn has first chance to a reaction in the window that is again if rulings on that haven't changed.
[All] MacBeth correct me if I'm wrong but the reactions and responses do not work the same way as Magic right? As in last reaction or response resolves first.
Correct, there is no stack in L5R.
There's very few reactions that can "chain" like in MtG, though there are a few. For example, Bad Kharma cancelling a The Sun In Shadow which was cancelling a The Wind's Truth.
I kind of was thinking on that on Shockaboyob question about the event.
Ahh, right. Yes, the active player gets first chance to respond to a trigger.
Or, at least, that's how it worked a while back.
So you could Avoid Fate your own Event first.
Shock the way it would work is when the event shows up if you don't react opponent gets a chance to react in other words if you don't Avoid Fate the opponent can react and cancel your event.
[ShE] What is "siege"? cant find it anywhere in the 20f rulebooks or the comprehensive rules
As a keyword it is like Paragon or Scout, it has no associated rulebook text and may act as a trigger for traits and abilities found on other cards.
[ShE] To use the Battle of that stronghold do I need to have presence in the battlefield?
[attachment: Sin_titulo.jpg]
Yes, because it does not have Absent.
Got it, thanks!
Assuming I'm building for Emperor Edition and following only those rules, how do you handle double-bugged personalities (who also have the Ivory bug) who appear to be priced with Ivory in mind? Ikoma Takakura, for example. Thanks in advance!
Answers on: Ikoma Takakura
There were no special Rules for, or prohibitions against, using such Personalities during Emperor. I can't exactly say off the top of my head if there were or weren't significant tournaments that overlapped the legality of dual Ivory/Emperor sets and whether that may have something to do with that fact, but the fact is what it is.
Both GenCon and Euro had CoM legal that is dual bugged. Euro got also GoC legal.
Thanks; that makes total sense, and I just wanted to confirm that that was the case. A few elite weenies will be joining my Emperor deck, haha! Many of these guys came out as I was fading out of playing and are "new" to me.
[OBH Legacy] Can I use this reaction even if I have no presence in the battlefield at resolution?
[attachment: Sin_titulo.jpg]
Reactions are not beholden to the Rules of Presence or Location.
Ok
does this guy counts as Imperial as well?
[attachment: printing_7749_1_details.png]
Yes.
thanks
At least it did in Jade arc, etc.
So the TA box had him at 11G, then Clan Discounted to 9G.
It also made Personalities like Toku exp2 free!
All correct. Though, it should be noted, Seppun Nakao got contemporary errata that he is "oops, not Imperial". 😛
[OBH Legacy] 1) Can I combined these two range attacks? 2) Can I combined these two ras with a ra from a spell attached to a personality on the battlefield? 3) Can I combined any of these two ras with a ra from a spell attached to a personality on the battlefield?
[attachment: Sin_titulo.jpg] [attachment: Sin_titulo_2.jpg]
As default you may combine Range Attacks from cards in same units. None of those RA come from unit.
[attachment: image.png]
[CE] I want to confirm my thoughs. To play this i still need to have presence in the battle right?
[attachment: image.png]
And another extra; If the Shugenja is bowed but the spell is not, can i still use the spell ability? (not the one in the image above, another in Open for example)
Yes, you need presence to use Groves of Stone. During CE and a few other editions (up until EE if memory serves), the only exceptions were those cards that could create presence, such as moving a Personality you control to the battlefield. Groves of Stone obviously does not, therefore needs presence.
It depends on the spell: if the spell has an added cost of bowing the shugenja, you cannot use the spell's action. Same goes for any other cost you would be unable to pay. You can tell if it's a cost by whether or not there's another colon (":") after the action type designator (battle/open/reaction/etc.).
If you can pay the cost, or if there is no cost, you can use the spell's action, provided of course any other requirements are fulfilled (such as legal targets), even if the shugenja is bowed.
Using the example of Groves of Stone, let's assume you bowed the earth shugenja it is attached to on your turn to lobby, next turn a different Personality of yours defends against an attack, meaning you have presence. Since your shugenja is Earth, the "bow this shugenja" cost is ignored according to the card's text. Therefore, all requirements are met, and you can use the spell's action, in this case most likely to give your province +4PS.
Thx for the great clarification. For some reason i had in mind that if the personality was bowed (in battle or just home) none of their abilities or attachments could be used, but now it make sense (and is more easy to remember). If the card is bowed its a nono, if the card is unbowed (no matter if it personality is) then you are good to go as long as you meet the requirement.
Correct. Generally speaking, it's the un/bowed state of the card in play itself which determines whether or not you can use it, as the first step. It's only after that step that you check for other requirements for its use, and if those, if any, are all fulfilled, comes the choice whether to use that card or a different one.
You sir, are a gentleman and a scholar!
[CE] Can i just choose 1 target and give it -3F or do i have to keep the order? like, if i select only 1 personality, it gets -1, if i choose 2, one gets -1 and the other -2, and only if i select 3 personalities can i put -1, -2 and -3F?
[attachment: image.png]
The latter. Order must be kept.
The -2 and -3 only affect the "second" and "third" targets specifically.
I see, its good for hordes but not that much for fewer but stronger personalities, thx!
[OBH] Can a Shadowlands box player bring in a Loyal Spider Clan Personality, since Shadowlands is not considered a Clan? I ask because the OBH rules say that when playing Shadowlands you don't have to pay the "out of clan 2G tariff" for Spider Clan Personalities if they have Shadowlands.
I guess that applies to any Shadowlands Personality with Loyal to another Clan.
No.
I don't speak for or make the OBH Rules, but without a specific exception for Loyal, I wouldn't assume one. That exception you mentioned is just for being Aligned and the "tax", but Loyal, while related to Alignment, is different.
Womp womp.
Does overlaying get around that? E.g. Daigotsu.
Nope.
But there's no entering play, the Personality is already in play, just getting overlayed?
Restrictions are still observed. It's all in the overlaying Rules.
[attachment: image.png]
Hunh. Learned something new. Thanks!
[ShE] If my opponent uses one of these cards against my personality, can I use Flame's Protection to negate the action? I am not sure since none of these cards say "target"
[attachment: 0001.jpg] [attachment: 0002.jpg]
If you mean the Sensei, then no, because the effect comes from a trait being triggered. As for "To The Next Generation", the Fear in the Battle action does have required targeting of an opponent's Personality at the battlefield, if I recall the description of Fear properly. As a non-Interrupt, non-Response action, you can use the Interrupt on Flame's Protection to negate it.
So, if it comes from any trait being triggered I cannot interrupt, right?
You can only Interrupt or Respond to actions; moreover, only actions that are not themselves Interrupts or Responses.
[OBH] Does dishonoring a personality remove its followers with an honor requirement?
Nope.
Same way, removing Shugenja keyword don't discard attached Spells, removing Kensai don't discard second Weapon etc.
Just gotta share the card art you brought to mind by asking, though:
[attachment: printing_1129_1_details.png]
I assume removing Shugenja still removes the ability to use the attached spells?
yes
It is because of that card that I wasn't sure 😉
I mean, that card still isn't much good, but it'd be way more useless if the dishonorable guy only had 0HR Followers left attached to him when you played it. 😛
Well not like the actual use of the card, more like I probably read that one and the line about Dishonored personalities losing their followers got stuck in my memory 😅
[CE] This card straighten EVERY time it is bowed?
[attachment: image.png]
Yes, its a trait
Thats busted, thx xD
[CE] Maybe a silly question but, if my personality already has a weapon, can i attach a new weapon and discard the old one? or i cannot simply put more weapons on them?
The latter.
ShE - Personal assassin targets something, they have no tokens, Itsuki targets the same thing... what happens? When Itsuki is targeting they have no tokens, but then I target and the assassin gives them a token and they have tokens now making the target illegal?
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Answers on: Personal Assassin
Effects triggered by targeting happen when the targeting happens during effects, not during the "choose targets" step, so they are not illegal at a point where it would interfere with the action. Thus, in your scenario, the Personality would get both tokens, one from the delayed effect of the Assassin and one from Itsuki's action.
Thank you
ShE - Is the gold cost increase permanent?
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I'll guess that it's an on-going effect while the Asceticism card is in play. So not permanent, per se, but effectively close.
We were asking because of how it relates to Kanos
What's a "Kanos"?
It is unfortunately not worded clearly/correctly and has been earmarked for clarifying errata. The point is not to increase the cost of the Item for any period of time longer than when you are paying for it with the Equip action. So, while I hate to issue a Ruling based more on intent than based on definite wording, that is how it should be played in the interim, but the latter will be rectified as soon as possible.
Kano's Alliance, the Wind.
Ahh. Thank you.
Ok just asking out of curiosity what is the part that is making this card not clear or correct?
Well, most basically as evidenced by Nue having to ask, the intended duration of the cost increase is not present. It also mechanically doesn't work quite correctly in other ways that I don't want to go into lest it confuse the issue further, but rest assured it will be clear and fixed once it gets errata.
the cost increases the first time another player equips, then the second time and 3rd etc... in the turn, the cost is back to "no increase" , BUT does it means the cost is back to normal or does it stays locked on "costs 2 more". that is where i see the wording issue. am i right ,
?
furthermore, does the cost goes down to normal the next turn ?
Something like that. Only the first use of rulebook Equip each turn, and only while paying for the Item, is the cost 2 more; the Item does not carry that cost onward, and future uses that same turn are not increased.
oh yes, i see
thank you
[CE] Can i negate movemente TO the battlefield or only FROM this battefield to another place?
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guessing only the latest since it say "choose an enemy personality" and i think rules about that is it has to be in the same place that your personality aswell
Any movement.
Reactions ignore RoL and RoP.
Uh, nice!! thx mate
OBH - Otomo sensei vs Kitsu Miwa
Miwa "shows" but doesn't reveal
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how does this interaction work
does "showing" count as revealing for the sensei?
the oracle says
Limited: If Miwa is face-up in your province, discard her and pay 2 Gold: Search your Dynasty deck for a non-Unique Lion Clan Shugenja. Refill this province with him, face-up.
Repeatable Reaction: Before a player takes a searched-for card from his deck or discard pile, after showing it if instructed to do so, remove a card in your hand from the game to remove the searched-for card from the game
Player with Miwa use the Limited, search for a Card and Otomo player reacts
And send the card to the hell
Even though the end result would give you knowledge of the card, they are not instructed to show it first, so you would have to choose to react with Otomo Sensei to it "blind", without knowing what Personality they got until after it was RFTG.
^
so I can react with Otomo sensei?
Answers on: Otomo Sensei
Miwa doesn't say anything about showing/revealing
just refilling
Otomo Sensei triggers from taking a searched card from a deck or discard pile. Showing only applies if instructed to do so (as mentioned in its oracle text).
Miwa search for a card
Absolutely. Showing it is not a requirement of the Reaction. It is just a note that if they are obligated to show the card, they must do so before you choose to use said Reaction.
Ok, good game, he wins
I didn't realize there was a sensei that literally just blocked my entire deck
Otomo sensei have a cost, is a silver bullet againstnsome decks
and?
Yeah. Some of the old Sensei are more like a railgun. Either works and completely destroys your opponent's deck, or does nothing.
Hantei Sensei is also another example of that.
If you know your opponent's deck, you can wreck them. Or at least heavily damage.
There is a whole faction that turns off a whole wincondition. That is part of the nature of L5R.
Hantei needs a hard knowledge about other decks
there's also Norikazu Sensei that hoses combo decks which rely on events
Norikazu is a nasty bastard
Im not worried about all that, just saying a single card that turns my tournie deck off, the first time I ever play in an OBH tournie, and have been waiting a whole week to play, meh
major feelsbad
Right, but you're relying on a single card/effect to win? That's risky. Just like playing dishonour and running into Ninja/Shadowlands, you basically autolose unless you built your deck to not. Also, Otomo Sensei isn't that popular. Kinda like running against Ninja/Shadowlands. 😄
Or play a ninja faceless with 30 events against norikazu
I say this as someone that played Ninja for years, and running into stuff like Winter Warfare or Storms of War. "K, thanks, I'll scoop now."
I dont know what that means
but yeah
feelsbad
It does, no argument there. Which then leads to building more balanced decks, that are more resilient.
However, OBH is a messed up format that will, no matter what, be completely rock-paper-scissors. You have over 10,000 cards to know, which you can't.
There's alllways several silver bullets that'll completely hose you if your opponent is running them and/or draws them.
And vice versa.
taking this to (link)
The goat
It's a beautifully-designed meta card. Purely situational based on the player, and what you know about your opponent's deck.
I love to say Shame
Thing is, it's a proverbial Swiss Army Knife®, and very situational. Do you have a bad first turn and just need to nuke Breach so you live? It's got your back. Do you wait five turns until they're about to pull off their combo and nuke it from Low Earth Orbit? It's got your back.
And again awesome art
I run it in a bunch of decks, but use it like one in 20 games.
Can't all be kaede :^)
But when I do, it's amazing.
OBH - If a personality is bowed, and you overlay onto them, is the overlayed personality bowed as well?
yes
And the same for any other state it's in, barring maybe some obscure exceptions....
[CE] Does this mean that this card will be straight before battle resolution no matter how many times it gets bowed? like esentially "can not be bowed"
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(i know it can be bowed and therefore not elegible for target from cards that specify that the personality has to be unbowed)
Correct. If after both players pass on Battle Actions and move to the Combat Resolution step at this battle, the Personality will straighten, and while I may be wrong, it will do so regardless of Location (for instance, if it was bowed and moved to either another unresolved battlefield or home)
All correct. 🙂 a player
In late Samurai both cards SSS and ASF where legal. ASFwas one of my favorite Lion cards.
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[OBH] This might be a question answered through another part of the 20F rulebook (I checked Invest and Dueling), but can you use the Invest effect from Victory Through Deference when it's used as a focused card?
I think not?
I don't have the Rules handy, but in the Invest part, in regards to Strategies, doesn't it only say that it adds Invest effects to the action?
Hmm. Okay, yeah, while it's a trait (so always active), this has clarified it some: "Invest costs on Strategies, instead, allow an optional extra Gold cost of the action to be paid in order to add the Invest effects at the end of the action’s effects."
Womp womp. So not as useful as hoped.
Nice try bucko