Jade:
Counterfeit may shuffle in or destroy Kitsuki Kaagi's Journal?
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Sun and Moon #rules-questions
Messages from the Sun and Moon #rules-questions Discord channel, copied for Oracle of the Void. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings and the rulebooks may differ.
What's the timing of "is being attached"?
Oracle MRP is written as "After an Item is attached to a Personality". Just wondering it's correct or not.
Old wordings sucks sometimes
Perhaps is the time while you are attaching the card and the end of the action. In that moment the item is in play?
Logical extrapolation from the second action would have the Oracle wording correct that the timing is immediately after attachment. Note that it "destroys" the item, and only things in play are destroyed. 🙂
Do also note, though, that the timing doesn't matter. Counterfeit doesn't target, so it can certainly counter the Journal regardless of whether it's already "in the unit" or not.
EDIT: Oops, the timing does matter, but not for the trait; see below.
If that's the case though, you could bow the journals to cancel the kolat action that's not targeting its unit.
@kempy_nezumi Ah, shoot. The embedded pics cut that bit off the bottom, and I didn't click them and forgot about the Journal's ability, so I only answered regarding the timing of the targeting restriction in the first trait sentence. Derp, my apologies.
As I recall, any timing that says "after" or "before" always refers to immediately after or immediately before. It's effectively the same timing as "response" and "interrupt", respectively, just with the stipulation that you can't use the reaction unless you meet its condition, whereas you can play an interrupt or response regardless of whether it would do anything or not.
Well, none of that is in question or really relevant. The question is whether the Journal is in play yet based on "as it is being attached" in the original wording being nebulous on that fact, and logical extrapolation leads us to conclude that it is in play already when you play Counterfeit, so its Oracle wording is correct.
However upon delving into this further... it looks like the Journal's Oracle wording is not... exactly correct. :/ In trying to make its Reaction trigger clearer, I accidentally inverted the meaning slightly and changed its scope. 😦
Fixed the Journal now. 🙂 Thanks, all!
Guys, does Flame protection protect my Shugenja from being destroyed by Overwhelmed?
Nope. Flames Protection will only stop something that is already/currently targeting the Shugenja at the Interrupt step. Overwhelmed doesn't target until during its own effects.
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3 copies on same province boost PS by 3 or by 9?
so base 7PS province has 10 or 16 PS?
By 6, not 9. Each OTHER Fortification. But in general, the limiting appears to be on the counting for the specific card's trait, not even an overall limit to the bonus. And even if it applied directly to the bonus, I don't think that would limit other copies.
Approved by kaiu sensei
Three of these and another fortification attached would make it +9
Matsu Akio (owned by active player) uses Burning Your Essence for Tactical Advantage ability. She may survive it, or not?
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Akio doesn't say printed. Either she survives at 3 Chi (2 + 1/2*6 - 2) until end of turn, or the "after" timing kills her in the narrow window of "BYE resolves fully, now do triggered trait".
@kempy_nezumi @Jeff Williamson Ugh, what were we doing with that wording on Akio? "After uses" is a pretty unclear timing point. But, I would say it would have to be the same as after the action resolves, so the active player would choose the trigger order and decide if she lives until end of turn or dies immediately.
Trying to play with Makyu, we are encountering an issue with sun and moon
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we have restarted the game several times, but its not detecting strongholds or other things
Are you both running the latest version?
it seems it was the DB
its been fixed
question with Genshin sensei. If a dishonored personality wins a duel and the oponent has more honor. Does the sensei re honor him? or he simply gains 1 honor? The trait doesnt seem to be tied to the performer, just a gain directly from the sensei
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@Brook Cunningham could you help confirm?
we found answer from Kempy for the same topic, thanks
Question on Lotus-Rules: Who is performing a Ritual? Is it only the primary Shugenja who has the spell attached or the all participating Personalities? The Rulebook says To determine who performs an action, follow the first rule below that applies: 1.Actions on a Personality or Follower are performed by that card. 2.Actions on an Item or Spell are performed by its Personality. yet i am not 100% clear what "its Personaltiy" means.
"Its" would be the Personality to whom it's attached, but there may be other Rules about performing specifically in the Glossary under Ritual? On phone, so I can't look up Lotus Rulebook easily.
^
From Lotus RB:
"Ritual A Spell ability with the Ritual trait allows or requires multiple Shugenja to cast it. All the casters must be at the same location, and they must include the one with the Spell attached, who is called the primary caster. Followers with the Shugenja trait may assist with casting Rituals."
"primary Shugenja: The Shugenja to whom a Ritual Spell being cast is attached."
"Ritual: A type of Spell that multiple Shugenja may participate in casting."
"Performing All actions are performed by a player. Some are performed by one or more Personalities or Followers as well. To determine who performs an action, follow the first rule below that applies: 1. Actions on a Personality or Follower are performed by that card. 2. Actions on an Item or Spell are performed by its Personality. 3. Actions that involve one or more Personalities or Followers in their costs are performed by those cards. 4. Actions that cause a Personality controlled by the player who took the action to issue a challenge are performed by that Personality. 5. All other actions are performed only by their player."
Just looking through Lotus Rituals, they often have shugenjas in constraint block (between colons).
So probably all Shugenjas you use are performing becasue of 3. above
Yep, Kempy has hit on it.
Ok thanks. The way i read it is i dont even consider 3. because the sentence in the beginning tells me to "follow the first rule that applies" which would be 2. (Spell is performed by its shugenja). Am i reading it wrong?
One edition later, in Samurai, they removed whole "first rule" for performing, and Rituals should be performed by all involved shugenjas. And in Legacy it would also work this way. But it may work in different way in Lotus. So maybe in Lotus, only "primary Shugenja" is performing? I don't know. I can't remember any Ritual / Performing problem during my short Lotus gaming history.
thank you for your insight. the questions came up because of awaken the eight and yotsu dojo: if the second (bowing) shugenja is dishonored, do you get 1 or 4 honor from the dojo? i am pretty sure back then it was 4H, had a blast with the deck at the 2006 WC. But maybe we played it wrong back then 🙂
I see jackson's deck (OBH tournament). And I have a question. If a player can not lose honor ninja, shadowlands) you can bring to Play Bayushi?
Will not enter play unless two non-Shadowlands cards you own have created Honor losses this turn
you could cause yourself honor losses to satisfy it. like shame your own personality and kameyoi yourself, kaukatsu xp2 yourself.
if you had to rely on causing the other player the loss, those strongholds you mentioned cannot lose honor, but I guess would that not satisfy the requirement of create an honor loss if they did not lose honor.
I know that the spion player can loss honor and bring Bayushi into play, my doubt is about the last part of your last message
First, Bayushi is Loyal so you need to satisfy this restriction.
If there's any way to do it, Ninja Stronghold may cause honor loss to opponent, so it could satisfy honor loss cost of Bayushi.
Horde Strongholds, on other hand, have "You may not take Political actions or actions that cause other players unconditional Honor losses." So you have to make a conditional honor loss.
No, the question is if a scorpion player can bring into play Bayushi against players that can not lose honor (ninja or shadowlands).
No.
Unless he makes double honor loss to himself.
Two OBH tournaments ago i was playing Scorpion swarm and i played Bayushi there because i had 9 Scorpion Ninja Personalities with entering honor loss cost to myself.
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Bayushi is looking for any honor loss, not for opponent only.
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Can the card Superior Tactics in the Jade bring in another defender at another province even if I have no presense at the prov being attacked?
"Move this Personality's unit to a different one of the defender's Provinces"
Different from what? The Province that personality is currently attacking? Or different from the Current battlefield?
When we are resolving prov two say, and I want to move a personality to two from prov Four
can i not do it because I don't have presense
your personality is attacking into Province B, and you're currently resolving Province B?
and you want to move from B to D?
my person is defending four, but my prov two is attackedd
okay, so you're moving from D to B.
yeah
I believe cards that would give you presence may be played even if you currently do not have it.
i wasn't sure if it meant that, but it would be nice. My opponent has a question about that in Voice One
but, I'm not sure if you can play Superior Tactics to move into the current battlefield.
I was hoping I could, but he's not sure of the wording from that
I don't think I can hop into a VC right now.
ok
You can play cards that create presence
But the wording on the card is irritating as it implies to be at the current battlefield and play the card. https://oracleofthevoid.com/#game=l5r,#cardid=7660,#cnprintingid=8. "Either move him to another unresolved battlefield or destroy a Terrain at the current battlefield."
If a player does not have a unit in a battle, he or she cannot take any Open or Battle actions for the battle unless a card, such as Superior Tactics, specifically brings a unit into the battle. This is called the "Rule of Relevance." This rule only applies to Open and Battle actions; if the trigger for a Reaction occurs, you may play the Reaction no matter where your units are located. A player besides the Attacker or Defender cannot move a unit into a battle unless invited to ally during the Declaration Segment.
Sorry, I do not understand your point. ST is an easy card. You target your personality with 3+ chi and moves to another province or destroy a terrain.
My point is if i can, as a defender, move with ST a Personality from another battlefield to the current one if i don't have a defending unit at the current one? According to the RoR i understand that it is possible. I am not sure about the wording of the card as it implies to be at the the current battlefield and move the unit from there elsewhere. But if i am wrong and see too much in the wording of ST than it really is then forget it 😆 .
I think that the version you need to read is Pearl version. (I can not upload pictures). You must target a personality in a battle to move to another battle
to upload images (or attachments) to your messages you need to have any role (link) ,
it was set because we had some spam problems in the past
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I think that in Jade it's possible with this version to move - as defender - a Personality from any location to current battlefield if you don;t have presence there.
Nope. "Different" means they're already at a Province and moving to another "different one". Yes, they can move from non-current battlefield to current, but not from Home.
Arc: Jade Extended. Oni no Kamu and Kitsu Tombs. Kamu's trait is totally canceled by the SH or as its a trait the effect is continous and you have a blank SH during 3 turns until the oni is destroyed? https://images.oracleofthevoid.com/l5r/8e/6c/printing_5737_1_details.jpg
Answers on: Oni no Kamu
Kamu has 4 traits. The first is the Honor loss. The second is the bowing of the box. Both those won't happen as they are entering play effects. The third trait is continuous, not triggered by entering play, so Tombs can't stop it, nor will it stop the fourth that destroys him.
ok, thanks!
I know the intention is that you target 2 seperate personalities, but this doesn't say "target a different" personality, so can you target Kouki with both targeting parameters for this?
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No, sorry. When targeting says "target your X and Y", they have to be two separate targets per the Rules.
Rules me obi-wan.
I feel like this may be you asking for a reference? :/
CR pg. 48, 7th and 8th paragraphs under "TARGETING#":
"When multiple targets are chosen simultaneously, the same target cannot be chosen twice. This also means that when one target out of multiple, already-chosen targets is being changed, another one of those already-chosen targets cannot legally become the new target. Example: If you target a Samurai and a Shugenja simultaneously, another player cannot change your targeting of the Samurai to target that Shugenja, because you have already chosen the Shugenja for the same targeting."
lol thank you.
I just couldn't find it.
Specific Rule pertaining to "and" is also under "CONJUNCTIONS", CR pg 56 in this form (paragraphs 2 and 3):
"The phrase “a [keyword 1] and a [keyword 2]” refers to two diffrent cards, each with the relevant keyword. Example: “Bow a Samurai and a Courtier” is not fulfilled by bowing a single card with both Samurai and Courtier as keywords."
Thank you!
If you don't actually have the favor, can she activate to pitch the favor?
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or do you have to at least have the favor?
“Good Faith” allows you to use her Interrupt to pay the Favor cost if you don’t have it
I didnt know if in order to even try to activate the effect you had to have it
question with Finding the Harmony under jade-extended rules. When it says it does not count as playing the ring, I guess it means it does not counts for enlightenment right?
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Answers on: Finding the Harmony
Oh, no; Finding the Harmony was indeed a way to "cheese" Enlightenment and "FETA" cheese decks (Finding Enlightenment Through playing Air 4 times and 1 other) was popular.
it doesn't count for effects that check when you put a ring into play, but Jade only cares that you have the rings in play, not how they got there.
What it means is that other effects triggered by "playing a Ring" don't trigger from the switch.
nice
Can Healer's Reaction bring another Healer from discard/province and use this fresh Healer's Reaction for same destroy trigger to bring another Goblin into play?
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Yep; I don't see any reason why not.
Can i play Overwhelmed if there's no any enemy Units? Just for sake of destruction of my guy? Legacy.
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Yes, you pay costs but the effevts can fail
Efirm is correct. Note that there's no required enemy targeting in constraints.
sorry new to Jade here. This is supposed to be brotherhood of shinsei. Does Monks cost 2 less for me? or not? and if they do, does it counts for other clans monks?
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Yes. Anyone with the "Monk" keyword has your Clan/Faction Alignment.
This might be helpful. It comes from the Spirit Wars updated rulebook that Kempy has on his Dropbox.
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ShE Interaction question... just because I don't understand how this works.
If I entreat bishamon, and respond with Takuma's ability, do they lose 0?
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Answers on: Entreat Bishamon
or get a +/- of 0
Yeah, since the gain is delayed until a future time, when you Respond with Takuma, 0 Honor would have been lost or gained from the action at that point, so the bonus or penalty would be +/-0.
Or... rather, it might fail entirely.
Thats what I thought, but wasnt sure.
Yeah, I think there are special Rules about Honor gains and losses insofar as "0" isn't considered a gain or loss and doesn't interact/trigger effects that look for a gain or loss, so Takuma's ability wouldn't even find anything to compare to and it would just fail to give any bonus or penalty.
Which would be an important distinction, if you were trying to give a bonus to that Crab guy who gives all his bonuses +1.
Does her trait mean even if you have a wind, you can use the rulebook action even if you have a wind?
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No.
It's a specific change to the allowed targets.
OBH
Wrath provides Force bonus to Toku as it also check Unaligned keyword, or it doesnt as he is Toturi's Army Personality?
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I don't think OBH has any specific Rules that grandfather back printed Unaligned keyword after the definition of it was changed and all Oracle entries were made to follow the modern, more consistent definition.
So no ;/
Sorry, on my phone so can't easily check the OBH Rules. If you find something in them about following printed cards for determining "Unaligned", then consider me mistaken. Otherwise, indeed; no.
Can this sensei interrupt and stop Overwhelmed?
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(link)
Thank you.
Emperor Edition. can you target attached items or spells with: "Battle: Target an enemy card with equal or lower Force" ?
Yes
thx. I thought so since rules say "If something in the game needs to know the value of an absent stat, the value is zero."
If the target has items that give force modifiers, do the modifiers go on top of the "set force" or does "set" override the modifiers?
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Include all modifiers. "Set" gives an appropriate bonus or penalty to bring a current stat value to the value you're "setting". If the Berserker is 5F with a 2F weapon, and you "set" his Force to 2x printed, he gets +3F.
a silly question. All these battle actions that grant bonuses or Set stats, like the Rage above, last until end of battle, or until end of turn? I've tried to search the EE Comprehensive rules for the duration of the effect, and found nothing.
Everything lasts until end of turn unless it says otherwise
All bonuses and penalties last until end-of-turn unless otherwise noted. Setting a stat is considered a bonus or penalty, based on if it raises or lowers the relevant stat.
I see, thanks.
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It's point 10, EE CR - Effects.
perfectly clear, thaks again.
When using a card that says "target a face-up Scout Personality in your province: Bring the target into play at the current battlefield, paying all costs", I assume you are subject to the honor requirement as normal?
Yes. Honor Requirement applies at all times unless explicitly waived.
Can one Lobby for the favor when they already have the political favor? Does it effect the question if there is a card in play that will gain the player who lobbies an honor?
as far as I know no
Yes, you can. There's no requirement that you not have the Favor already when Lobbying for it.
well that would be a first
I have never played a game the the player lobby for the favor when it already had the favor
Well, in most circumstances, there'd be no reason to, and you'd net yourself a bowed Personality for nothing.
Sounds like, in this case, biapolis has The Ancestral Armor of the Crane Clan Exp in play attached to a Personality they wouldn't mind bowing for a net gain of 1 Honor.
EE question: what's the point of sepukku action? especially on personalities with low personal honor. Maybe I am missing some big disadvantage in the rules about keeping alive your dishonorable personalities?
So they dont die dishonored. There are some strategies that target dead dishonored personalities
During Emperor most cards that gives Family Honor loses require a target of dishonored Personality..
Got a question about ShE do the clans still have their clan holdings?
No. Those were removed in Twenty Festivals Base Set. (Edit for accuracy; forgot they were technically removed pre-Onyx, but that's because there wasn't a contemporary environment were they/Ivory weren't also legal).
You may go into Oracle, set Emperor edition filter and type "dishonorable" in "Text" field to see nearly all cards that punish for it.
Also a player , if you have a question about specific edition environment, you may try dedicated channel like (link)
Can strongholds not flip anymore to produce extra gold on a holding?
No, you still can; only the reminder text is gone. That said, it looks like there was an editing error with the latest Onyx Rules Datasheet, and the part talking about it is cut off. Note how paragraph 2 under Strongholds cuts off and doesn't finish.
it does target holdings right? not just +3 to the stronghold?
as a dynasty action, if memory serves
ya
targeting a holding, yes
I've alerted the team and hopefully they'll get the Datasheet fixed soon.
What happens if you interrupt an action and the action is no longer playable?
Could you be more specific?
so... lets say an action requires someone to target a dishonorable personality... I interrupt the action attaching an attachment that rehonors the dishonorable personality and now there are no targets
I don't have the CR handy, but I believe that there's a clause in the action resolution steps that if a target chosen at the "choose targets" step has become illegal prior to effects resolution and can no longer be found when effects calling it resolve, the entire action ceases and fails.
if its a strat does it get discarded in that case?
Again, just from memory, I don't think an action failing in this way changes the otherwise overall sequence of taking the action, so it would still get discarded as normal.
While not always applicable, I'm pretty sure most card games go about it that way, so you can always draw mental parallels to other games you might play, in this case "action targets thing conditionally, interrupted so condition is no longer, therefore action fizzles"
Question about Atosa: "Your Gaijin Personalities in and out of play (including Atosa) have your Clan alignment.". Is it correct to assume that the card text is not in effect until she has been played, so she can't be played with clan discount?
Answers on: Atosa
Her trait affects herself while out of play, so you can. It affects everything else once she's in play.
oh, missed the out of play bit, good one.
Note that she only affects herself while out of play, so sitting in the Province only gives her the Clan Alignment. However, once she's in play, all your Gaijin can be bought with Clan Discount (if you're playing under a Ruleset that still has that, I should also have said. 😛 )
Also, can I just take a moment while we're looking at Atosa to acknowledge that I had Legacy play in mind when I insisted that the trait she shares with a number of other cards be worded to discard all your other "Sensei Personalities"? Yeah. I did that.
Onyx_ShE Rules Datasheet is corrected now. 🙂
I am not sure I understand why she only affects herself when out of play if the card text says "your gaijin personalities", in plural. Is this some kind of general rule about cards in a province? I play EE
It's a general rule of continuous traits. While not in play, they only affect the card they're on.
okay I looked it up. The rules say: "While their card is out of play, continuous traits affect the card they are on, and only that card, unless the trait states otherwise." But wouldn't then "your Gaijin personalities" count as "unless the trait states otherwise"?
No. Exceptions are explicit, not implied. In this case, for the entirety of the trait to be exempt from the Rule, there would need to be text saying "even if Atosa is out of play".
makes sense, agreed
hey-o looking at way of the crab edict // what does a personality having siege mean?
Answers on: Way of the Crab
Having the "Siege" keyword.
does it only matter for when something mentions siege?
It has no inherent Rules. It's like "Scout" or "Commander".
Gotcha!
If I straighten a fortification with Way of the Crab, am I able to its gold production again? I am thinking no...
Answers on: Way of the Crab
Gold production is not an ability and not limited to once per turn.
ahhhhh
Regarding ring of void and it's trait to put it into play.
Since it's a trait, could I put it into playing the middle of an action? For instance, if I were to use the rulebook favor action to discard a card and then draw a card. I have ring of void and one other card in hand, zero fate cards in play. I discard my fate card that is not ring of void, which then puts me at just the ring of void in my hand and no fate cards inplay,meeting the requirements to out the ring into play. Can it be put into play after paying the cost of the action, but before resolving the action, since it is a trait and not an interrupt/action/reaction?
No, you can't.
It's buried somewhere in there about which parts need to resolve as a whole, such as drawing-and-discarding.
I believe that the Onyx/ShE Void ring has its condition to put into play tied into an Open action rather than a trait, if memory serves. That would mean it takes its own entire action to put into play
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its a trait now; you can "put it into play" anytime the trait "works"
Nevermind, I must've been thinking of a different one
So I could put it in after discarding a card in my above example??
Maybe, I'd wait for one of the rules guys on the server (like Macbeth) to weigh in. I do think it's a yes, given what Anj said about it being a trait, thus checking continuously for its condition
Yes, you can. @saaam was incorrect above about there being buried Rules about unbreakable effects chains (see Timing, Triggers; beginning on page 43 of the 20F Comprehensive Rules). Though the Rings have slightly odd wordings, their "play" traits are voluntary triggered traits, which can trigger whenever the condition is met, including in the middle of resolving effects as you described with the Favor action.
Just checking, but I think not: by playing the At'Tok'Tuk Sensei can you play cards that will only join a Ratling player?
Answers on: At'tok'tuk Sensei
Probably you can under the current Oracle wording. All Personalities with "will only join" were changed to Loyal, which is slightly functionally different. Might change it back someday.
If you're playing strict arc simulation though, definitely not.
Thank you!
I'm sorry, what? You can now "break up" effect chains? Wow.
I don't think the concept of "effect chains" was ever much of a thing in L5R, except in possibly very early rulesets and/or excruciatingly niche exceptions. Timing has been more clearly defined as things happening one after the other as the game progressed, but by and large, Triggered traits, and Reactions before them, have always been designed to activate at their exact trigger, not wait around for the end of some sequence in which their trigger was a part.
So, hypothetically-speaking, if an effect says "Discard your whole hand one by one", if the last card is the new Ring of the Void, I can play it for its effect in the "middle" of that other effect?
Well, I concede that when it comes to drawing or discarding, there may be distinctions between multiple cards entering or leaving the hand at once, but as you worded the example, if it explicitly indicates you discard "one by one", then yes, each discard would present an opportunity for triggers to occur between them.
Neat. I wonder how I can abuse that. ^_^
And yeah, that's why I said "one by one", instead of the unspecified "discard your hand", which implies all at the same time.
Do make sure to let us know. 🙂
Conversely, would "discard your hand, then draw a card for each card discarded this way" mean you draw one at a time, or "simultaneous", just like you discarded? Can't recall if there's an effect in L5R like that, but wouldn't be surprised if so
I don't have the CR handy, but I believe there are specific Rules about "for each", if you care to search.
For Akodo Nojima, his trait gives him personal honor even while dishonored while attacking?
If so, when he gains honor while dishonored & attacking, does he rehonor, or does the player gain the honor?
Answers on: Akodo Nojima
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No. The trait sets his PH equal to a value, which means giving it a bonus. Dishonor applies a maximum of 0 to PH, and minimums/maximums are always applied after bonuses/penalties when calculating the current value of a stat.
Say that again like I am a 1st grader.
His trait does not make him have more than 0PH while dishonorable.
...
[Command Error]
his trait specifically states that his PH IS
it's not being set
and from playing with playtesters, the intent is that he doesn't care if he is dishonored
https://tenor.com/view/fight-mk11-mortal-kombat-begin-mortal-kombat11-gif-13664126
Saying "value X is Y" is the same as "set value X to Y". To "set" a value is however something that happens once, whereas Nojima's trait is a continuous effect. Otherwise, if you'd insist on using "set", it would have to be rewritten as "While attacking, at the start of combat and whenever Nojima's Force is changed, set his Personal Honor equal to his current Force or 5, whichever is lower."
As you can tell, long and clunky.
Alternatively, compare and contrast with the wording on certain Strongholds that ignore the PH maximum of being dishonored (I want to say CE, Shamate Pass is I think one)
Uh... no? "While attacking, set his PH to equal his force, or 5, whicher is lower"
same
no issues
That would set the PH when assigned as attacking, but doesn't continuously check for any changes
exactly
because it's not setting
it just IS
Either way, it doesn't ignore the fact that minimums and maximums apply at the end of everything
And being dishonored applies a maximum of 0 to your PH
Card text over rulebook...
but aren't you checking too if he's still attacking?
Either way, if it's being ruled that he does care about being dishonored, then cool. I just hate being told the point of a card is one thing and mechanically works that way, and it is ruled that is not the case later.
It checks if he is attacking, sets it to 5 or F and then reduces it to max 0. Over and over again.
I apologize for any miscommunication, but my ruling is correct, for the reasons Marcus and I explained.
It wasn't miscommunicated by you, but I as a person tend to trust when people tell me that the rule is one way, and then when it's not it becomes very frustrating because I have now told others it works that way, and then it just becomes a whole thing.
I can see how it isn't about not caring that he is dishonorable, but how he is able to regain his honor while in combat, but being dishonored ruins that opportunity for him.
lol I mean, yes? But that is the case for all Deathseekers...
Gaining PH doesn't re-honor personalities, gaining honor does. Increased PH just sits there waiting until they are honorable again...
yes i understand all of that
I am saying from a story perspective - it doesn't matter if the character doesn't care about being dishonored. He is and is perceived that way. This is why the personal honor will ultimately be zero when he is dishonored 🙂
also the rules
But deathseekers ARE dishonored, that's why they are deathseekers
but ya...
Ah I see. I meant completely from a story perspective and not re-honoring.
oh totally but now extra dishonored for game purposes XD
lol
but I thought that was the whole idea
For hired killer. To kill a six gold cost unit do I need to pay 4 gold or 8 gold?
In Samurai or Legacy? 8G
In this instance ShE
lol
I would assume it's +2
ShE
well if that is the case, the card needs to re-worded if that is the intent?
I agree, and have suggested something to that effect on the onyx rules discord
I'd then say the fault lies with whoever gave you the wrong information in the first place, and whoever else you told, you know if they blame you who to pass it on to
Had to step away due to IRL stuff before I could respond to this
You are correct. Nowhere on his card does it say he ignores the maximum of 0 on PH from being dishonorable. Compare with Shamate Keep, an EE SH which ignores said maximum of 0 for your Paragons
[attachment: Shamate_Keep-card2.jpg]
It specifically says "his PH IS" it doesn't say "set"
Doesn't matter, the maximum is applied at the end anyway
I mean the precedent set here by Shamate Keep makes it pretty clear tho
Thats a different edition
true but the fact that that wording exists...
Exist-ed
new edition, new rulebook, new rules
but either way
card text over rulebook
Second most recent, and good evidence for precedence in how such a trait would be worded
his text says "is"
His card text doesn't day he ignores being dishonored, nor does it day he ignores effects from being dishonored, nor does it day he ignores the maximum of 0 PH from being dishonored
You're right that card text over rulebook, but his card doesn't have that text to begin with
Yes... it does
it says "is"
And again, whoever told you this was wrong as well
either way, it should be clarified
Here are 3 different ways it could be written such that the maximum is ignored, the maximum, which is defined as something that means no matter what a value is or how it changes, it will be reduced to the maximum at the end of every calculation or change of a value
In other words, if Nojima is Dishonorable, his PH is equal to F or 5, whichever lower, THEN his PH is reduced to the maximum of 0
it's a trait
so its just 5
or force
THEN, after it IS that value, whichever of the two it is, the MAXIMUM is applied and reduces it to 0
I dont follow and its already been ruled on
so we can just stop arguing
I'm not sure how I can explain it further to help you follow. If anything, only so you can go tell off whoever gave you the wrong information, explaining in your own words to them how they were wrong
You can't
The problem I have is the card text overrides the rulebook.
And the card text is saying "IS" so what you are arguing is that there is a cyclical problem, where it check if he is attacking, he is, so his personal honor is = to force or 5, but he is dishonored so it's actually maxed out at 0, but he is attacking, so it's 5, but he is dishonored, so it maxes out at 0, but he is attacking...
if it wasn't a trait
or didn't say "is" I wouldn't have issue
Also everyone knows that Nojima is a Fallen scum and never even should became deathseeker.
[attachment: printing_10637_1_details.png]
Nop, the card do not said that he overruled the dishonarable rule
If Nojima is destroyed while is attacking and is dishonorable you will loses their personal honor
Fuck, that's an entire aspect I forgot about
Card text over rulebook... it says is.
Meaning if he dies while dishonored, while attacking, with force 5 or higher, his controller loses 5 honor
Hell yeah he is! Love this guy.
Force 4 controller loses 4, force 3 controller loses 3, etc.
You lose printed for dying dishonorable. You lose 0.
No, the card do not specifies that they override the dishonorable rule.
NEVERMIND THEN
Lets just keep arguing in circles, yay.
When you focus with nojima in a duel with honor as stats your value will be 0
No. Focusing hasn't been a direct stat boost for a number of Editions.
I preferred Yorick anyway
I am with jade extende mode now xD
Its true. Shame on me!
Will try again, normal status for a personality is Honorable, Nojima's trait override the rule and the PH is different to the printed while is attacking. But not specifies that override the rule when the status change to dishonorable, then they have a maximun value of 0. Because the trait do not specifies that apply while he is diahonorable.
I understood what you were saying, my main issue now is the lack of clarity on the use of the word "is"
Just assume for now and for the future, "Is", when referring to values in the context of continuous effects such as traits, is a continuous version of "set", which is one-off instead off continuous
Yes, and thats what I will do, but I think it needs rulebook addition to "if it says "is" it sets it, see "set"" lol
I think that such entry is not necessary. If the card do not specifies that apply in every situation the card is not over the rulebook. I think for example about a discussion about a trait and the effect while the card is not in play recently. (About gaijins)
This topic
In spanish I can explain this in no time. XD
Who gets first opportunities for intterupt/reactions?
Active player, iirc
Active player is correct; that is, the player whose turn it is.
Thank you!
Answers on: The Fortunes Scream
For "The Fortunes Scream" Is it draw an equal number of cards to the amount that I paid, or an amount to what I shuffled?
[attachment: image.png]
Draw equal to cards you shuffled.
Thanks.
when overlaying a more experienced version of a personality, you don't need to pay the gold cost or meet honor requirements of the more experienced one?
also I assume you can overlay over a less experienced personality that you control, not an opponent, right?
Correct. Other restrictions such as Loyal or Unique must still be observed, however.
Yes, overlaying is just for your own cards.
thanks
What format are you asking? In Jade, for.example, you must pay if there is more than 1 level of difference. The amount is the difference in gold cost.
While out of play, it's trait effects itself. But, does it effect other Naga out of play when you have Zenathaar in play?
[attachment: image.png]
The trait is for other naga and do not say out of play. Only works for other naga in play while Z is in play.
Does CGHexp protects itself while being in discard pile against VtD removal?
[attachment: printing_12605_1_details.png] [attachment: printing_11697_1_details.png]
Emperor Edition
Is the same situation as with the gaijin sensei. No?
um... is that how it works? because being faceup in a provice is one thing, but do we need to keep track of all potential effects in the discard pile?
Only in relation to direct interaction with the card itself.
Nonetheless, @kempy_nezumi does pose a somewhat difficult question of interpretation. I think the most consistent ruling would be that its effects do protect itself, but definitely nothing else beyond that.
Just saw something that made me go... huh...
If an opponent plays no hiding place, versus a personality at home.
And they are unopposed... what keywords would the interrupt need for me to stop it?
[attachment: image.png]
Answers on: No Hiding Place
The person targeted also has no personalities at the battle
If you have no Presence, you'd need an Absent Interrupt. With Home/Remote too if it's from a unit.
So if it's from a unit it needs Home or Remote, Absent, interrupt? wow
lol
is there a complete list of keywords that have a specific effect? like tactician, etc.
What Format? As same keywords work in a different way in various editions like Duelist, Naval, Cavalry or even Tactician.
Unfortunately, yeah. You need to check the rulebook for each arc.
As your questions were about Emperor era, all mechanical keywords from this edition are covered in EE Compehensive Rules.
Also checking BigDeck rulebook is a good way to find them all, as its Legacy format based mostly on Emperor ruleset but as it allows all cards printed, they put all description of mechanical keywords there.
But still some stuff works there as in 20F not like in Emperor - like Naval.
on a personality: "if he would be opposed, move it to the current battlefield". Am I correct to assume, this means he can only be moved if there are enemy units in the battlefield?
Yep.
does somebody knows what is a "performing personality"?
Format?
celestial
I am far from my pc now, butnif you want clear and full answer please download comprehensive rules for emperor edition zip in dropbox. It contains full offline version of celestial and emperor rulesets. Just download unzip and open index.html in any browser
Its just offline copy of old AEG rules site and all hyperlinks work locally. Just check performing section of CE part.
ok will try to do that, thanks
Where can i find this rules for emperor edition in dropbox?
just google it?
dosnt seem to be pinned
Pinned in welcome channel
To make a long story short, a performing personality is the initially targeted Personality of yours when playing a Strategy. In a sense, he performs the action, the character does the thing described by the card played.
If memory serves, it was a bit of confusing terminology that got replaced by the simpler "your target Personality"
It's actually both simpler and way more complicated than that.
Im trying to find this keyword; Reconnaissance but i cant find any info online or in the index
That keyword had to do with scouts
It’s usually shortened to Recon
what does it do?
Some effects "give you Reconnaissance" at a battlefield and some care if you have it or not. It's purely card to card, no hidden Rules.
It basically let you get extra value on the action if you had Reconnaissance
oh ok thx thx
Or like a lot of strategies that had the Recon keyword
Oh, crud, right. a player it actually was a hidden Rule in Celestial, but it became explicit in EE. All card texts in Oracle have been updated to explicit.
so, if a card have "open recon: target a province" is implied you have recon in that province right?
Yes
If it's from SE or CE yes, but check the Oracle wording. That will be most accurate.
thx all for the info
I just want to say that it's amazing to have this place to solve rules questions in 2025, with most of the webs and forums having disappeared.
Force of habit. I did it officially for AEG for 6 years; can't stop, won't stop. ;P
nothing is stronger than habit. 😎
This place is an oasis in the desert for all who love l5r
EE: no mulligan in the rules, right?
at least none described in "Start of the Game", comprehensive rules
In EE is Border Keep
Not for your hand. Border Keep helps with your Provinces.
ahh I see
And Border Keep exp for hand
if I understand it well, the limited action can be used once on your first turn, then once per game again on any of your turns
Ah, yeah, forgot about that, it being both a late comer then Ivory nerfed.
Or you may use both on 1st turn as well.
It's 2 separate abilities on the EE versions.
EDIT: OH, you meant Exp, right? Sorry. I keep blanking on that one. The Exp can only be used twice on turn 1, no more.
Hmm, BK xp was in FL so its late CE and through whole EE.
yes, any turn it says
Late enough for me. ;P
Also dont forget you start with 6 cards in hand in CE and EE. Additionally in CE Dragon starts with Imperial Favor.
In what edition Dragon starts with one ring in play?
Only per Stronghold, not Rules.
If we’re building a deck in Sun and moon and the stronghold we choose is a double sided one, we put both sides in our deck then just put the side we’re using on top of the other right?
No.
You put one side and SnM automatically flips it if you are going second.
Ahhh ok, got it. Thanks!
Ok, thank you for the clarification! I wasn’t sure if it would register as a double sided card.
No penalty in EE about not having more cards in your deck, right? My memory tells me that back in 1996, you lost the game if you had to draw and couldn't, but I'm not sure.
Nothing happens if you are out of cards in any deck.
There are cards thay may punish you if your deck is empty like Doom of the Dark Lord.
Nope, never L5R.
memory fails me then. Thanks
It's a condition known as "TMM"... Too Much Magic. 😉
Can the winds in ShE target a dishoborable personality to take the favor, or does it still require a personality with at least 1 PH?
The requirement of which you speak is an explicit part of the normal Lobby action, which you are not using at all when taking an alternate Wind Lobby action.
Awesome, just wanted to make sure. Thank you!
EE Comprehensive rules on focusing: "If the choice is to focus, the player takes a face-down card from his or her hand or from the top of his or her deck and puts it into his or her own focusing area, face-down. Focusing a card is not considered playing it, and the card’s costs, effects and traits that do not concern its use as a focused card are irrelevant. The order in which cards were focused is sometimes relevant, and should be tracked."
This doesn't state the player focusing can look at the card taken from deck, yet it mentions costs, so I believe... you can look at the card you focus?
oh NM, just read on the step above "Players may look at cards in their own focusing area at any time, but may not look at other players’ focusing areas."
sorry
If you rout a berserker, does the item still pop?
[attachment: image.png] [attachment: image.png]
Yep. As much as the Berserker may have been emotionally attached to their attachment, its destruction is not an effect on the Berserker from an in-game perspective. 😉
I wasnt sure if the wording made it ignore that or not
if a character have a "iaijutsu battle" can it be used like a re gular battle action? or has to be in a iaijutsu duel?
It's just Battle action with iaijutsu designator
Some cards may react to various Iaijutsu actions, including Iaijutsu Battle ones.
[attachment: printing_12119_1_details.png]
Eg this guy may - while Invested - take any Iaijutsu Battle/Open/Reaction/Interrupt Strategy from discard.
When it says "their current force" do they mean the target, or your personality?
[attachment: image.png]
what a cool card and art, ok ok
if your person has more than double their person 🙂
Thats not how I was reading it, thats why I was asking.
oh totally! im glad you did!
i misinterpret stuff often
lol not as often as me 😉
😄 😄 😄
Im the king!
given the really cool art, I wanted to check oracle for if it's a reprint. It is, originally in Honor's Veil:
[attachment: image.png]
ya!! I loved this in samurai!
Oni staple in Samurai.
some updates to language (printed instead of base, for example), but basically the same text, with an added "current" before the last "Force" just to make sure you're still comparing to current force and not printed
I'm guessing, at least, I'm a writer, not a game designer
Oracle text is also still using "performing" so I'm guessing it's a card that hadn't yet been reached for post-Ivory wording changes
If i create a new attack phase (as attacker) with a card as a reaction to ending one attack (as a defender), can my opponent use one of the personalities that he send home in the previous attack to asing him to this new attack phase?
also, can i use more than 1 reaction to the same trigger? example, 2 cards that have a reaction when engage
Restriction of being only once in Battle Resolution is only about specific Attack Phase. So same Personality may be an attacker in multiple Attack Phases same turn.
Also, yes, you can play 2 Reactions to the same trigger, as long as the first Reaction's effects didn't change or remove the trigger so that the second wouldn't be legal anymore.
Thx both for clarify it
Will latest fashions re-honor it's personality?
[attachment: image.png]
Answers on: Latest Fashions
Yes
The reason I ask is because it isn't targeting the personality, nor is it attaching to him and gaining honor or doing other things that are normally associated with rehonoring
its just an honor gaining effect unto itself
[attachment: image.png]
I don't think it does
No it won't. a player , I think you may be thinking of pre-Ivory performing, or misreading point 2 as "an attached card" when it only refers to the act OF attaching.
Guess so
Wouldn't it fall under 0.1. though? Similar to how targeting a unit is the same as targeting the Personality in the case of Meditating Mind, are not actions from a unit the same as actions from the Personality?
Answers on: Meditating Mind
No. "From" is specific to individual cards. Also, the unit targeting equivalence thing has long been confusing, and we got rid of it. Nothing in ShE should target whole units anymore; it will explicitly target just the Personality and then affect the unit as appropriate. Note the final un-white-bugged version of Meditating Mind fixed this relic of unit targeting that was accidentally left in because Onyx wasn't fully Rules-edited before the sale to FFG.
Fair enough. My logic is that it's not the kimono being honorable, but the Personality wearing it, but I get that card game rules can be like that
This lasts until the end of the turn, right? So if I did it during a raid battle, they'd still have that battle action during the normal attack phase?
[attachment: image.png]
Yes
Cool, that's what I thought, because it didn't have any other specifier for time length, but just wanted to double check
Indeed. But the ability itself is only OPT, so if you use it in the Raid and even somehow straighten after, you still wouldn't be able to use it again.
How does The Blessings of Isawa interact with something like Test of the Jade Champion (or similar don't-have-to-bow-to-cast-a-Kiho effects)? Is the "ability on the personality" still considered a Kiho being cast, so I can do it without bowing?
👉 Please tag your rules questions with [edition/format] you are asking for. Please use square brackets like [SE], [OBH], [20F] etc.
👉 Non tagged questions will be deleted.
I should add this rule in the beginning. It will probably help people searching and should avoid confusion if specific questionable card was a reprint.
The abilitiy retains its identity as a Kiho action, so it would interact with such traits as Naka Kuro Exp's, yes.
[ShE] I'm assuming you still have to meet requirements of loyal?
[attachment: image.png]
Yep, and HR. Unless it explicitly waives requirements/restrictions/costs, you need to meet them when Recruiting.
What happens here where you have the sensei giving everything singular, and the rams are recruited at the same time?
[attachment: image.png] [attachment: image.png]
Created cards don't exist out of play for any period of time; they are created in-play. As such, they will not gain "Singular" until after they are in play and under your control, at which point, it's too late for 'Singular" to prevent them entering play because another copy already is.
Interesting...
(link) please add [ShE] to your latest and future question posts. TiA.
For reference sake it would actually be easier if we had a rules category with each format as a separate channel.
That way if we want to check back later (or search) it is clearer which format the posts refer too
question, I added the second option of the stronghold to the deck and realized it was not added to the pregame cards. Now I cant seem to remove that card. if I hover over them it cant be removed, maybe a bug?
[attachment: image.png]
Wrong channel.
true, it was the othe rone, let me put it there
15 more channels? i don't think so.
I am new here, but I think one channel is better.
What happens if you have one singular card in play, and another one enters play?
All I see is this:
[attachment: image.png]
I recently brought this to the attention of the rest of the Onyx Lives team, that the Singular Rules are a little too shorthand. They will soon be expanded to effectively be an exact copy of the "Unique" Rules from the 20F CR (minus the paragraph about also applyng to deck construction) with the word "Singular" replacing the workd "Unique" and in the meantime should be read as such.
Can you like... not attempt to buy it at all?
Unique rules say, "A player will not bring into play or take control of a Unique card if he or she already controls a Unique card with the same title." So, I would say you can try, but the card entering play/becoming controlled by you would be negated.
so it doesn't at all enter play, you just, use the gold and the recruitment fails, and it goes to discard?
Well, I may be overlooking that Unique (and likewise Singular) is also considered a restriction, and therefore restricts even the legality of the attempt, but I'd have to look in the Recruiting section for that.
did unique deck build part changed?
No.
I was just seeing if it had entered play and could use the response and then you have to discard one of the copies in play because of singular, because if that had been the case you could get loads of rams
Nope; definitely not. That's the Magic way, not the L5R one. Unique/Singular L5R cards will fail to enter play at all if a confliciting Singular/Unique is already in. I am finding that such "restrictions" are not technically restrictions against attempting to take the action in the first place, but there's not much point to expending the resources to do so since the restrictions will cause the effects to fail.
can you have multiple copies of a unique card in your deck? No, right?
No, you can't. The practical difference between Singular and Unique is that of deck construction.
That's what I thought. Then, there's no way for a scenario where you attempt so summon a unique card while having another copy in play to happen, right? Except if you have taken control of a copy of that same card from the opponent...
Otherwise, attempting that should be illegal, and thus should cost you the game, right? After all, that would be proof of illegal deck construction
Yes, having 2 copies of the same Unique in your deck would be illegal construction, akin to having 4+ copies of Sneak Attack. 😛
Also, you can't take control of the other player's Unique/Singular card if you already control a copy of it either.
Exactly
Indeed, but my scenario is in the case you first take control of you opponent's copy of the card and then attempt to put your own copy into play
That should not cost you the game, but it would be also an illegal move, right?
As Mac said above, you can attempt it but it will fail.
Oh, so attempting it is not illegal... that's interesting. In yugioh that would cost you a warning since you are forbidden to even attempt doing something that would clash with the rules
Pearl is not considered an "Elemental" keyword is it? (find it very unlikely but wanted to be sure)
and same goes with Jade and Blood/Maho?
I think this from 20f rulebook Is relevant
[attachment: Screenshot_20250324-014829.png]
[ShE] is this one per fortification per turn (so every fortification can be effected once), or once per turn (can only straighten one fortification on the turn), for straightening after bowing?
[attachment: image.png]
The trait's effect will only trigger once per turn total.
Thanks!
(link)
(link)
???
The tag for the edition you are making the question is missing
🤣
Came up again: [ShE] unit gold cost 7. Do I pay 5 or 9 to kill him?
[attachment: image.png]
Pay 9. Kill 9-2 (7).
Thank you!
After using that card and losing 2 honor, do I still need to meet honor requirement for recruiting/proclaiming?
Yes. You only get HR waived if you lose Honor from other players' effects or from the Rulebook (dishonorable death).
That reminds me, I should revisit my corrupted Crane blitz now that ShE base is out
[ShE] does a personality need to be unbowed in order to use and item or a spell?
No.
sick thanks
[OBH] Does that rule about dishonorable death also stand in OBH?
OBH follows 20F ruling in this case, so yes.
[OBH] A little thread necromancy here, but I was reading the OBH rules and there it would rehonor the personality...
[attachment: Screenshot_from_2025-03-25_09-36-55.png]
Yeah. I also pointed it out in latest questions in L5R group.
In OBH at least.
And in Modern too.
[ShE] [Surveying the Field] do you have to have both compassion & be opposed to prevent the opponent from drawing a card, or just one or the other?
[attachment: image.png]
Answers on: Surveying the Field
Both.
this is for celestial edition (in case that other editions have it different): if i attack with a naval unit, so i can "go first" but i cant do any accions with my naval personality, and the defender decide to do nothing, does the battle automatically resolve? cant i use battles or actions from another personalities?
Naval in Celestial:
"Reaction: After engaging, once per battle, if you are the Attacker and your current army has more Naval cards than the side opposing it, target your Naval Personality: You have the first opportunity to take a Battle action, which must be performed by the targeted Personality."
So yes, if you use rulebook Naval Reaction, and you will pass as your first Battle action, another pass from defender will result in end of Combat Segment.
Note that being a Reaction, it is voluntary, so if you have no action from your Naval Personality to take and don't want the Combat Segment to potentially end this way, simply don't use the Naval Reaction.
Ohhh i see
well, that make more sense xD
thnk both mates
ShE - I forget... when you bow a holding that gets a bonus when paying for something specifically, if you over-pay, what happens to the remaining gold? Does it just vanish?
[attachment: image.png]
Yes, if it's only from the one holding. If I remember correctly, if you're bowing multiple, you can say that technically, the overflow comes from the other holdings, thus letting you keep it floating
For instance, using Basecamp, if you buy a 3GC follower, Basecamp bows for 4, and the remaining 1 vanishes. If you have Basecamp and any 2GP holding and buy a 5GC follower, you can spend the 4 from Basecamp first, then 1 from the 2GP holding, leaving you 1 gold floating
That is, if I remember correctly
Thats what I thought too. Just double checking.
ShE - Can an action with a gold cost on a holding, be paid for by bowing the holding it is printed on... ie:
[attachment: image.png]
Yes.
epic. Thanks
[ShE] If my opponent has Kisada's Funeral in play, can I put in play mu own copy of Kisada's Funeral?
Answers on: Kisada's Funeral
My doubt comes due to the card being Unique
[attachment: Sin_titulo.jpg]
Yes, you can. I think it was Samurai Edition or perhaps even Lotus, where they changed the "Unique" Rule to only apply to your own cards/deck, not globally to the whole board.
Great! So that would mean that, in principle, both would have our honor gains ands our provinces' strength reduced by 2, right?
Well, to a minimum of 1 on the gains, but yes, the effects would be cumulative.
Awesome, thanks!!
[ShE] I just noticed that the trait that allowed you to flip the card to give +3 GP to a holding was removed, does that mean that that mechanic is no longer valid?
[attachment: ShE_384b.png]
That wasn't actually a trait. It was an ability that was always meant to be written in the Rules; the text on the Stronghold was just reminder. You can find it in the Onyx Rules Datasheet as "The Inheritance Rule".
Got it, thanks
👉 Please tag your rules questions with [edition/format] you are asking for. Please use square brackets like [SE], [OBH], [20F] etc.
Done, sorry
[CE] If a card have the text "(...) and target an enemy personality" does it have to be in that province battle? //// Example; Battle: Choose your performing Battle Maiden and target an enemy Personality: Move your Battle Maiden to the current battlefield. Straighten her if she moved. Give the enemy Personality -3F. //// Can i use this battle to move my battle maiden from home to the current battlefield (unopposed) and give an enemy personality at another province the -3F?
No. You cant. "Target the enemy Personality" means this Personality must be at current battlefield.
I see, thx mate
Btw this ability is possible to play even if both, enemy Personality and your BM are in current battlefield. You just ignore movement and straightening effects but Force penalty works.
because of the dot?
No, because in L5R, there is no inherent requirement that some of an action's effects succeed in order for the rest to also work, unless they are linked by the word "to" (ie, if phrased, "do X to do Y", X must occur or Y will not).
Kempy's answer is correct, but it should be mentioned that the reason is the Rule of Location.
That is what i mean with the dot (.) If there is one dot separating phrases you can apply only one part as kempy said. Good to confirm
I see. Well, no, sentence separation doesn't matter either. "Target two samurai. Bow one and destroy the other." If either effect is negated on its own, the other will still happen.
Wait now im confused xD, in that example, if i cant target two samurai (for whatever reasons) i can still bow one and destroy the other?
i get that in that particular example the dot is not finishing a state and you have to use the two phrases together right?
Targeting requirements are different than effects. If the action requires you two target 2 samurai, you must do that, but either effect can fail, and the other will still happen.
Ok, so in that particular case "target two samurai. Bow one and destroy the other", since it has a target requirement, it has to apply for the other part to take effect?
I think i got it now
[ShE] Playing crab, with way of the crab, when you purchase a fortification - It enters play bowed. Does Way of the Crab allow you to straighten it?
[attachment: image.png]
Answers on: Way of the Crab
I don't have the Rules handy, but I believe entering play already in the bowed state is not the same as bowing, so it would not trigger the trait.
If movement is negated, does personality still lose attachment? [Unyielding Stance] [Route] [ShE]
[attachment: image.png] [attachment: image.png]
Answers on: Unyielding Stance
Yes.
[CE] If an effect says Target your personality can I target a bowed personality with it?
Yes. The prohibition against targeting your own bowed people was removed around Gold or Diamond Edition.
[CE] Can I react to Proclaiming/Recruiting with this strategy?
Recruiting isn't an action in CE. I don't have a Rulebook handy, so proclaiming may or may not be an action there. It was in EE, but I think in all Editions prior, gaining Honor for buying full was just a Rules process.
[Legacy] So, in which formats proclaiming/recruiting are considered an action? I really want to clarify that
[ShE] Are proclaiming/recruiting considred an action in this format?
In Ivory-ShE, Recruiting is, and Proclaiming is not a separate action but modifies and is part of Recruiting.
[attachment: Screenshot_2025-03-26-13-42-04-248_cn.wps.xiaomi.abroad.lite-edit.jpg]
Thank you very much!!!
But in OBH Proclaim is a Rulebook Interrupt that you may use for Recruit action.
[attachment: image.png]
So OAS won't negate honor gain from Proclaiming.
Becasue this Interrupt effect is delayed.
That's how i see it, but i may be wrong
Yeah, OBH hybridized the EE Proclaim Reaction with Ivory Templating for some reason? :/ I'm not completely daft, am I, BTW? It was a Reaction in EE, right? 😛
You are correct.
Yeah, looks like this.
I see, that was enlightening. Thanks!
So in:
CE - you can't use it to negate honor gain from Proclaim as there's no Recruit action and Buying for Honor is an entering-play effect Modern - you may, as Modern follows 20F ruleset with Proclaim Recruit ability OBH Legacy - you can't as Proclaim is an Interrupt for Recruit, but with delayed effect BigDeck - you can as here Proclaim is EE-like Reaction
Whoa.
Ok, Modern and BigDeck it is then
@kempy_nezumi There is no Rule against Reacting to Reactions. Unless is there one specifically added to Big Deck?
Oh, i messed it 😄
I confused it with Interrupting Interrupt.
My fault
Corrected
Actually, does have me curious, especially since I'm not at a computer to check:
In [OBH]:
Can you react to an Interrupt or a Response in OBH? The latter two can't be played on themselves or each other, and you can React to Reactions, so I would assume you can React to the two, but you can't Interrupt or Respond to a Reaction
There's no Response in OBH. But Interrupt is a kind of action so you may use Reaction to this. <- i am not sure about this
@kempy_nezumi There would have to be specific OBH Rules preventing Interrupting Reactions. They're actions like any other and therefore include all steps, including Interrupt step.
[CE] With this card, if the oponent personality is not honorable, can he still look up 3 cards and refuse the duel?
[attachment: image.png]
No.
Thx thx
As a spectator i clicked an arrow beside the sun icon in one of the players, and somehow both of them had the moon icon now and cant reverser it? sorry im a newbie in the client
lol really?
Madness!
? a player
Btw, stuff like this should go to (link)
Yes sorry about that
[ShE] Do you draw a card with Mirumoto Higashi if you Recruit a Shinsei's Heart or put The Way of the Dragon XP into play?
No. Higashi's draw is from a trait, not an action.
[CE] Does weapon modifiers still apply when the weapon is bowed? ?
yes
[CE] If the resolution of an action gives +1F to a personality in the open phase, does that bonus last til the end of the turn? or just the open/limited phase?
All ongoing effects are default until end of turn unless explicitly stated otherwise.
Thank you gentleman!
and 1 more thing about [CE], havent found it in the rules but, if an action is political, only magistrates can do it? and so with recon - scouts and tactical - tacticians?
There are no such implicit Rules like that for using actions except for Tactical. Even Recon actions will explicitly say if they require a Scout, and often will, but it's not a hidden implicit Rule.
Anyone can take a Political Action, unless explicitly forbidden. (I.e.: Not allowed to Lobby, etc.)
Ok ok, just wanted to be sure thanks again
(ShE) can the palatial crane ability be used more than once a turn?\
No
thanks!
Gold cost of the created thing
[attachment: image.png]
0
Should be 6, but ok
I know the rulebook says what you are saying, but I wanted to double check. is there a reason that it doesn't have the gold cost from the action?
I think that makes more sense
I see where you're coming from on that, but I feel confident it was taken into account.
I mean in general
I think any action that makes a thing the thing should have GC = to the cost
it makes sense
or possibly like the aid card you could split it
If a created card is going to have a stat, it will be explicitly stated in the effects of its creation; otherwise, 0 (might be a special Rule for HR, I forget offhand).
HR is -
but thats not the point
should I post this suggestion to onyx lives?
No harm in it, but I don't think this was an oversight. I don't have my notes handy, but if Design had wanted it to not have a GC stat of 0, that would be in there, like it is on many other cards (like Response Kitsunes).
Mac is correct the card will state in the creation what effects it will have
I... know?
Thanks
I mean, that may be, but I still feel that by default it should have a cost equivalent to the action creating it.
[OBH] When you're playing Naga and you bring in a Naga personality who is human also, does that mean you don't get the PH from proclaiming because he's not a non-human Naga?
Why would Proclaim care about human/Nonhuman status? :/
So you do get the honor?
Akasha, who was never non human but always human but still considers part of the Naga. I just want to make sure I'm playing it right
You can Proclaim anyone with your Clan Alignment while Recruiting them from a Province.
I've never played Naga before until I practiced recently, and my opponent said I don't get the honor if it's not nonhuman.
Naga prior to Onyx is the Clan Alignment keyword. Post Onyx, that changed to Akasha, but all pre-Onyx Naga are also considered Akasha-aligned, if you want to integrate Onyx into your personal Legacy play.
No such Rule.
oh ok
👉 Please tag your rules questions with [edition/format] you are asking for. Please use square brackets like [SE], [OBH], [20F] etc.
Kunji is a Nonhuman Phoenix Personality and it can be proclaimed, in case you want another example
In Jade you may even Proclaim Oni 🙂
[attachment: printing_5743_1_details.png]
I learned that the hard way. Lion AND. Oni
@kempy_nezumi I think a better counter-example is that you could Proclaim Daini back in the day. There he is in all his Naga-aligned/bordered glory, with the explicit "Human" keyword because until Diamond, all Naga had the inherent "Nonhuman" keyword by the Rules:
[attachment: printing_8008_1_details.png]
[JadeEx] Oni no Kamu and Kitsu Tombs
If i bow Shugenja to bring Oni no Kamu into play i ignore only "bow your Stronghold part"? Other Kamu's traits are working, so he leaves game after 3 turns from now. But what about "stronghold will not produce effects". It means that Stronghold's Reaction is gone while he is in play? And what about trait that gives Shadowlands and ignore HR? It's still working while Kamu is in play?
[attachment: printing_5737_1_details.png] [attachment: printing_8189_2_details.png]
Kamu will negate the ability if you try to use it, and it will suppress the continuous effect of the "ignore HR" trait. However, the Shadowlands keyword will remain. It was a one-time ongoing effect with a permanent duration that was already "produced" (past tense) at the start of the game, so it will stay; "produce" (present/future tense) just refers to continuous or future effects.
Oooh. That's nasty.
I seem to recall the Accumulated Rulings saying that the only thing not negated by the box's ability is his three-turn vanishing act.
[attachment: image.png]
here's newest version
[attachment: image.png]
this one is from 2006
@kempy_nezumi Yes, bullet 2 from the older list was partially reversed in bullet 5 of the updated one, so I was correct about those, but I don't quite follow the rationale that it doesn't suppress continuous effects from bullet 1/4? :/
Btw whats Oni no Titsu? 😄
I mean, clearly it's not meant to suppress the prohibitions on the SLH boxes, so I guess that fiat should be taken into account, but it's another frustrating case of a thing being Ruled to work not exactly how it reads.
Oni no Typo. 😉
There's also this from the other Discord, for [SJ/EJ]:
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 22:20:09 -0800 From: Joe Fulgham <puck@DARKEDGE.COM> To: L5RINFO@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM Subject: [l5rusefulinfo] Re: [L5RINFO] Strict Jade question X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0)
quick question then... what is the diffrence between ex-jade and strict jade?
Quick answer:
Strict Jade only allows you to use cards that have the jade bug, and versions of personalities that have the jade bug. EJade only restricts you to Jade bugged Events, Spells and Personalities (and other versions of those personalities of course) while allowing all Actions, Items, Holdings, etc.
They only clarified that this specific trait of Kamu won't be negated.
[attachment: image.png]
Yes. I am waiting for full archive to get through and find all other stuff about this (if there's any)
I think Kempy saw that? My long talk with Don about Strict v. Ex Jade.
@kempy_nezumi Do you find Don's email a compelling counter to the 2000 Ex Jade Floor Rules?
He contacted me personally and gave me this link.
Also i am in Oracle Discord as well
Ahh, I scrolled and didn't see your name. My bad.
As for Kamu, I think I should add "new" between "produce" and "effects", and that ought to clarify everything.
So with this change "You may ignore Honor Requirements when bringing Shadowlands Personalities into play." of Kitsu Tombs will work?
Yeah, sorry. I see now with the 2006 Rulings and the obvious duh that it shouldn't negate the SLH continuous prohibitions that I didn't think of, it shouldn't affect continuous traits as a whole.
[JadeEx] Hmm, so in case of KT Kamu prohibits Stronghold from straightening and negates only Reaction but other stuff is active (giving Shadowlands and waiving HR)?
Just want to be sure as there are 4 Lions in this tourney and probably all of them are playing KT.
And only the Honor loss and initial bowing are "entering play effects" that are stopped by KT's Reaction.
can you play reject conflict on your guy to eject from a battle if unopposed?
[attachment: CRI_54.png]
@Brook Cunningham
👉 Please tag your rules questions with [edition/format] you are asking for. Please use square brackets like [SE], [OBH], [20F] etc.
for ShE
I believe targeting is mandatory, so you would need to have an enemy Personality to target
(ShE-ShE)= Does [Way of the Dragon] "count" [Shinsei's Heart] or [T.Daisho] for its "Lobby Bonus"? (No, because its a trait, not an action?)
[attachment: image.png]
Those cards only count as Rings for actions. WotD is a trait
Guys one question, I am pretty sure I built my deck using shatered empire filter, and I got this guy. But it seems he is only Onix legal. Was there a change or something?
[attachment: Onyx_146.png]
My card search didn't turn him up for ShE. You may have the wrong database
a player Techno is correct. Both your guy and the enemy target are required.
[Legacy/OBH] Some fortifications specify coming into play bowed, some have reminder text saying they enter play unbowed. Do all fortifications enter play unbowed unless stated otherwise?
AHA, I knew it, I printed him for one my decks. I guess he was changed for some reason?
[attachment: 20250329_172206.jpg]
Onyx Lives team has "replaced" Onyx Base set with ShE Base set. They're mostly the same, but some cards have been replaced, either for balance reasons or story reasons.
Fortifications entered unbowed per special Rules until 20Festivals, when the Rules were changed so that they would enter bowed like all other Holdings. I'm not sure if OBH has any special preservational Rules regarding this, and the Oracle has not been adjusted to add "enters play unbowed" to all old Fortifications, so for now, they all enter bowed unless otherwise stated.
And the "(fortifications enter play unbowed)" would not count for specifying otherwise, right?
Right. Reminder text is not game text, especially when it has become outdated.
Thanks!
So going back to this, sorry. The way I was interpreting this so the Lobby bonus counts Shinsei's Heart and other similar cards was: "Lobbying is an action (eg Suikihime Lobby or the rulebook lobby), therefore when I'm checking the bonus I have to add the Rings I have because of WotD, and since this is an Action, then Shinsei's Heart counts"
Im probably wrong, but just trying to understand why this logic is wrong
The trait counts the Rings and its effects confer the appropriate bonus. The action itself doesn't count the Rings, it just gets the bonus.
Ok, so essentially WotD trait is counting the number of Rings I have in play all the time, and cards like Shinsei's Heart are not rings at the moment of Lobbying, so they are not added to the bonus.
Answers on: Shinsei's Heart
They only count as Rings when an action itself is looking for Rings directly.
They don't count as Rings simply "during" actions, but specifically "for" them; I think that distinction may be the crux of the disconnect.
"...and in discard pile..."
😉
Just like Samurai Banzai edition, or CE15, or Emperor Gempukku.
Pretty much, yeah. Although removing the white bug from all Onyx Base cards, making some now ShE-illegal by virtue of not returning in ShE Base, is a new, only-practical-digitally, innovation.
[OBH] Aramasu's Legacy and Hikahime Sensei
I can use AV ability to create Ashigaru from Sensei?
[attachment: printing_422_1_details.png] [attachment: printing_12417_1_details.png]
Yes.
Didn't you make an errata to LS for working that way? Not to mention that LS produces less gold...
This question and answer describes the proper interaction of these two cards with or without considering the Stonghold's Oracle text, though Kempy's concern was about the former situation.
Also, no similar (and admittedly consistent) change was/has yet been made to Luxurious Silk for reasons I've discussed elsewhere.
LS errata is only for purpose of incoming OBH tournament.
Question was about Create that is something different that Recruit.
Oh, I'm sorry. You were directing your LS question to Kempy, and I had forgotten he had put a textual change in place for LS for the upcoming Tournament.
well, Create isn't an action, it's an effect. You're paying for an Open action on a Sensei, so AV should work no matter the LS errata
It's a question of the fact that the AV Oracle Text (and Kempy's revision for his OBH Tournment to LS) adds "non-Recruit, non-Equip" action.
Anyway, you're bullying LS and apparently I'm one of the few people here who wants to see the card at its fullest no matter the situation lol 😆 Nah, just joking, although it hurts me to see LS nerfed 😭
Its nerfed for purpose of SnM specific tournament. If you ever will play OBH in your local environment you are not obligated to use such stuff (also as LS in Oracle is not changed), along with other SnM bans like Foothold or Blade of Penance.
Is possible that next legacy Tournament can be without bans? Legacy Full Power.
"Race to Master of Five" would probably be un-fun; oh look, I have to put 6(+?) cards of Event meta in my deck so no one wins with Naka Tokei. 😛
Sadly there's no local environment where I live 😭 , so I have to be strong and say goodbye to LS, with that errata I prefer to use its spot for another holding with better synergy. Anyway, don't mind me, I'm just a LS fanboy 😂
Agasha tunnels, nagas, foothold. Baldebof penance. A race for several hard decks
Oh. Maybe that was the wrong emoji reaction. I thought you were agreeing with me and adding those to the "un-fun" list, but you're the one who suggested "no-Ban Legacy" in the first place. 😛
It might be a another option in a future poll.
Even with the nerf, LS is still a pretty good holding. Plenty of open actions that cost 2 gold.
The thing is that my strategy heavily relies on followers and spells...
There's other holdings that can take that spot, like Broken Shinbone Warren and Supply Outpost
Yup, I'm considering them (especially the last one) among other alternatives
Nice 🙂
I want to have fun with the un-fun listbof decks. Also I will propose a league format instead of swiss format. ;p
[legacy] does Big Kisada and Little Bear Kisada both count as "Kisada" for unique purposes? (Both are called Hida Kisada with no subtitles)
Answers on: Hida Kisada, Hida Kisada
There is a list of cards in the OBH (and AEG for that matter) Legacy Rules that are considered different cards despite having the same title. The two different Hida Kisadas are on this list.
Bend like a reed [ShE] - Can this negate bowing when they use a strategy that targets one of their units and then bows my units?
Answers on: Bend Like a Reed
[attachment: image.png]
It should negate the bowing
Not sure on where we are standing regarding what action counts as being from a Unit. My understanding is that it should be printed on a personality or any of its attachments.
“From” means the action needs to be on a card in the unit. A Strategy’s action is from the Strategy, not the unit
☝️
So I think the consensus is no, "Bend..." does nothing if the action comes from a Strategy.
This is the consequence of getting rid of "performing": even though, from a metanarrative perspective, the unit does the thing on the strategy card that targets it, the unit doesn't "do" the thing
was mistaken. See Technogashi's and Roji's posts.
So if a strategy said "target your personality, bow target enemy personality" bend like a reed still wouldn't work, correct?
Answers on: Bend Like a Reed
Sorry, realized I needed to clarify that
The bowing action has to be from (read: on a card in) another player's unit (and that unit's Personality has to have higher Force than yours). So, probably not? But you didn't specify where that hypothetical action was. :/
Sorry, had to fix more 😄
Thanks, though, that answered my hypothecial!
So there's no more performing?
ther is no more
Not as of Ivory onward. OBH and other Legacy Formats have tried to preserve it, though. But, OBH hasn't integrated with Onyx digital fan stuff.
I personally like Performing
but hate that sly bitch Hotako
tho I had a copy of her in my Emperor decks xD
and I understand why they got rid of it
Omen had Hotako in check
ShE - when does this trait happen?
[attachment: image.png]
After Kunisada assigns or moves into an attacking army.
follow-up [ShE]: does that mean if he can assign to one battle, then move to a different battle, the trait triggers twice?
I don't have the CR handy to check if there's a nuance I'm forgetting to apply, but just off the top of my head, that logic is sound and the answer is yes. Compare to Cranes who "May not attack" wherein "attack" is shorthand for "assign or move into an attacking army".