Sun and Moon #rules-questions

January 2025

Messages from the Sun and Moon #rules-questions Discord channel, copied for Oracle of the Void. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings and the rulebooks may differ.

A player, 5 January 2025 18:32

Does it have to be a follower in his unit to be able to use his interrupt ? Or can the follower also be from another Personalities unit ?

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Brook Cunningham (rules official), 5 January 2025 18:33 · in reply

It doesn't have to be in Churo's unit. Per the text, it just has to be "your" and targetable (so, if during a battle, would have to obey the Rule of Location and be at the current battlefield).

A player, 7 January 2025 00:06

Celestial edition rules: Can you play multiple Retribution in response to one Attack Phase?

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A player, 7 January 2025 00:17

it does go back to the triggering condition after each reaction has resolved to my knowledge.

A player, 7 January 2025 00:18

they can also retriubution you after the end of the attack phase created by your Retribution.

saaam (not official), 7 January 2025 02:00

Mmhmm.

A player, 7 January 2025 21:01

In Celestial rules... can you combine range attacks?

A player, 7 January 2025 21:16

No

A player, 7 January 2025 21:17

Thanks

A player, 7 January 2025 21:18

I believe there were reactions that could increase the range.

A player, 9 January 2025 03:14

Ok we have a rules question.

I have just played the Perfect Moment, to create a new battle. I declare my attacker, and my opponent declares no defenders. can I use Sound of Thunder to move another Battle Maiden to that battlefield in Celestial.

A player, 9 January 2025 03:14
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A player, 9 January 2025 03:15

It does not specifiy that the enemy personality has to be at the current battlefield, in comparison to Guided by Honor.

A player, 9 January 2025 03:16

as my understading, everthing behind the ":" is the cost of the action.

Brook Cunningham (rules official), 9 January 2025 03:16

There must be an enemy target at the current battlefield to play The Sound of Thunder, per the Rule of Location.

Brook Cunningham (rules official), 9 January 2025 03:16

Guided by Honor is different on a number of levels.

Brook Cunningham (rules official), 9 January 2025 03:17 · in reply

Not only a cost, but also "required targeting" which the enemy falls under.

A player, 9 January 2025 03:17

ok

A player, 9 January 2025 03:17

so the battlemaiden cannot enter the battlefield

Brook Cunningham (rules official), 9 January 2025 03:18 · in reply

The action cannot be played if required targeting cannot be met.

A player, 9 January 2025 03:18

ok thanks!

A player, 22 January 2025 22:10

question with the stronghold Kyuden kitsune. It says fox and fox clan. Kitsune is literally fox in japanese. It seems at some point they might have stopped translating it to english, can someone confirm if kitsune applied as fox for the stronghold?

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Answers on: Kitsune, Kyuden Kitsune
Brook Cunningham (rules official), 22 January 2025 22:11 · in reply

No. "Kitsune" Family Name or keyword is not automatically equivalent to "Fox" or "Fox Clan".

A player, 22 January 2025 22:16

thanks, so sad it could have been pretty interesting to use pokemons with that stronghold

A player, 22 January 2025 22:18

although, I was not reffering to the name, but the trait, like ths one

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Brook Cunningham (rules official), 22 January 2025 22:19 · in reply

Sure, but it is still a Mantis Clan Stronghold, and the restriction against playing with printed "Mantis Clan" Personalities has been errata'd off it for Legacy/Open play. But yeah, unfortunately that's not an equivalent keyword, so no cost reduction.

saaam (not official), 22 January 2025 23:03

Wait, that was errataed off?

A player, 22 January 2025 23:12

Another question with Journey's end keep and kage sensei. My kolat personalities have my clan aligment, that means I bring kolat personalities for 2 less gold because they would have both kolat and imperial?

And can someone explain this part to me: When this Stronghold produces Gold, you may not Recruit Personalities until the phase ends or until after you have spent 5 total Gold for non-Recruit costs or payments

If I am bowing the stronghold to buy, can I bring a personality first, before the other part activates? or I have to always spend 5 gold before I can bring personalities? If I need to spend the money first, can I bow the stronghold to produce 5 even if I am buying something that is worth only 2 for example?

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A player, 22 January 2025 23:14 · in reply
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Brook Cunningham (rules official), 22 January 2025 23:15 · in reply

Yeah, Bryan Reese did it one day. I was having an discussion with him about how Yoritomo's Alliance and Mantis Clan were no longer separate things. As of Gold Edition, Mantis Clan supplanted and replaced YA, so they are equivalent, and he said, "Ok, then let's just get rid of that trait on the old Fox box."

saaam (not official), 22 January 2025 23:16

Ugh. Okay. Hopefully we'll play the Ext. Jade tourney with the restriction in place.

Brook Cunningham (rules official), 22 January 2025 23:16 · in reply

Well, yeah, this was way after Jade, and Arc Simulation tournaments always use contemporary printings, not MRPs or Errata post-Arc.

Brook Cunningham (rules official), 22 January 2025 23:24 · in reply

1. No. "Kolat" is not a Clan Alignment. They would have to have something else that is a legal Clan Alignment for you to get the Discount for them also having "Imperial", per the Stronghold text.

2+. This box was printed before Gold pooling in Ivory, but effectively, it is saying the 5 Gold it produces cannot be spent on Personalities, so it would be dumb to bow it when paying for a guy, because none of the Gold can go toward buying a guy. That's it. I worded it really cumbersomely in the Oracle text; in hindsight, I probably should have just said, "this Stronghold will only pay for non-Personality cards" or something? It's sort of the inverse of Gold that will only pay for a specific single card, so it was a diffcult thing to wrap one's head around, especially when Gold Pooling was a new thing at the time I was doing most Oracle texts.

A player, 23 January 2025 18:37

Question about the card " I know that trick". Format OBH. I target my 10 force guy I can produce 10 range 1s. The oracle has some added text about combining the range attacks. I'm curious what is allowing the range attacks to be combined? Is there a ruling about range attacks somewhere in a late edition that allows RA to be combined when coming from a single card?

Follow up. So that means I could shoot 5 range 2s. Correct?

Answers on: I Know That Trick
Brook Cunningham (rules official), 23 January 2025 18:41 · in reply

Attacks from Strats cannot normally be combined under most-current Rules. However, in Lotus, RAs from Strats were being "produced" by the performer. Thus, what the Oracle text allows you to do is combine them with other attacks from the performer's unit as per the most-current combining Rules as if they were "from" the performer, but not with each other (combined Attacks each must be from a different card in the unit). So, no 5 sets of RA2s.

A player, 23 January 2025 21:55

Does yoritomo sensei make 0GC holdings cost 1??

A player, 23 January 2025 21:55

It used to..

A player, 23 January 2025 21:56

Like when it was "standard" legal?

kempy_nezumi (not official), 23 January 2025 21:59
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kempy_nezumi (not official), 23 January 2025 21:59

2008 FAQ, ZF = Zen Faulkes

kempy_nezumi (not official), 23 January 2025 22:00

8 years earlier in 8th Feb 2000 FAQ - 3 month after release of AD.

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kempy_nezumi (not official), 23 January 2025 22:01

So unless 20F changed that it probably shoul work this way.

A player, 23 January 2025 22:03 · in reply

Thanks. Trying to get the OBH gears turning again.

Brook Cunningham (rules official), 23 January 2025 22:33 · in reply

As worded, under contemporary 20F Rules, the "minimum of 1" limits the Sensei's reduction after all other reductions, so Zen's bullet #2 above does not apply. But it definitely does not increase 0G Holdings.

saaam (not official), 24 January 2025 02:26 · in reply

I wish we could retcon all the things Reese said/did here...

Brook Cunningham (rules official), 24 January 2025 02:29 · in reply

I mean, in a Legacy environment, it's really no longer feasible for classic Fox Box to exclude Mantis Clan Personalities, and it would still work as printed for arc simulation, so I'm not all that against this particular call.

A player, 26 January 2025 18:18

@Brook Cunningham hi, can "Fall on your knees" cancel an "interrupt" such as the The Suns Return?

Answers on: Fall on Your Knees
A player, 26 January 2025 18:19

In legacy (OBH)

Brook Cunningham (rules official), 26 January 2025 18:22 · in reply

I can find no OBH Rule that makes Reactions and Interrupts equivalent, so no, Fall on Your Knees cannot negate Interrupts.

A player, 26 January 2025 18:23 · in reply

Ok, thanks. That's interesting.

A player, 26 January 2025 18:26

@Brook Cunningham ok follow up question: I play Game of Sincerity, my opponent plays The Sun returns to negate it.

Do I still have to pay the cost of dishonoring my personality?

A player, 26 January 2025 18:27 · in reply
Brook Cunningham (rules official), 26 January 2025 18:31

Well, this gets into an unpleasant gray area with the fact that not every card wording in the Oracle (because some wordings are unconverted to post-Emperor templating), as well as the Legacy Rules themselves, do not fully address the fact that under the post-Ivory Ruleset, there are no such things as non-Gold or non-bowing-the-card-the-action-is-on "costs". Post Ivory, everything that is not a Gold Cost or a "[bow icon]" cost is actually an effect upon which later effects are conditional. So, until I actually get around to rewording all cards in the Oracle that way, some appear to have "costs" which under Ivory Rules would now be "effects", including that Dishonoring.

A player, 26 January 2025 18:34

Ok, my understanding is that, the sequence just determines our cards order. Once we get to the "pay cost" phase, we pay the costs, then resolves them.

A player, 26 January 2025 18:34

I know things can wonky with OBH but it just doesn't make any sense otherwise.

Brook Cunningham (rules official), 26 January 2025 18:37

I'm not following how what you said immediately above relates to what I said? Strictly speaking, Game of Sincerity's Oracle wording does not mesh with OBH/Ivory Rules, so the answer of its interaction with The Sun Returns is unclear and open to non-objective interpretation. That said, most interpretations would agree you don't have to Dishonor your guy if it gets hit with The Sun Returns.

A player, 26 January 2025 19:55 · in reply

I quit the game after Emperor so I never played in Ivory, which is why I didn't fully understand what you said.

However, I just went on Oracle and looked at a bunch of strategies in Ivory and I think I understand now.

kempy_nezumi (not official), 27 January 2025 07:58

I need confirmation from a player , but in OBH there still exist "old" costs between colons, besides those from Ivory/20F (gold and bow).

kempy_nezumi (not official), 27 January 2025 08:36

"Since the oracle wording of the card follows the old templating, then referring to the mrp of rules regarding costs that refer to colons (at EE) would be the way to go."

Brook Cunningham (rules official), 27 January 2025 10:40 · in reply

So, you're saying I should finish updating all of them to remove the inconsistencies? ;P It's on my to-do list; maybe if the US economy ever lets me retire.

A player, 28 January 2025 01:55 · in reply

So does this mean anything before Ivory should be treated as "costs before the :"

Just for clarity. I.E.

(Kami unleashed) - bow your performing person: do a ranged attack equal to their force.

Person bows even if it gets negated/canceled.

Brook Cunningham (rules official), 28 January 2025 02:01 · in reply

Yes, technically, but at some point my goal was to convert all the cards' wordings in the Oracle to a format they would be in if they were printed under the final ruleset. So, that would mean that things that used to be costs would instead be effects, upon which later effects are conditional, through use of the phrase "to"; as in, "Bow your target performing Personality to make a Ranged Attack equal to their Force."

A player, 30 January 2025 22:45

i need some clarifications on "The searing touch of jigoku"

A player, 30 January 2025 22:47

oops. my question is this event negation only specifically negates events that enter play with an action right? second. does the negation action on the card only work if i "flash" it out with invest or does it also work if its just sitting out there on my personality?

A player, 30 January 2025 22:47

OBH rules

Brook Cunningham (rules official), 30 January 2025 22:55 · in reply

So, to answer your questions:

1. The negation action affects any action that is on an Event. In many cases, that will be the action that puts them into play, but many Ivory/20F+ Events instead have actions that you simply use from the Province and then discard the Event straight from there.

2. The Invest is a wholly separate thing from the negation Interrupt. You can "Interrupt Equip" the Spell, and then take the negation Interrupt while it's in play, or you can take the negation Interrupt while it's already in play. Or you can Interrupt Equip the Spell and not take the negation Interrupt. Whichever.

A player, 30 January 2025 23:02 · in reply

so even older events such as price of power or shattered focus that have "discard from home" actions it also can negate them. got it. thanks.

A player, 30 January 2025 23:03

one more quick question about egg of pan ku. if i have a 5 force guy with a plus 4 force weapon on him. play egg targeting my guy. is the copy 9 force or 5?

Brook Cunningham (rules official), 30 January 2025 23:04 · in reply

5

Brook Cunningham (rules official), 30 January 2025 23:06

To elaborate, "permanent effects" copied from the original (per Egg's text) would be ongoing effects with a "permanent/end of game" duration; not Item modifications.

A player, 30 January 2025 23:07

thats how i read it during some play testing but now we know for sure!

A player, 31 January 2025 10:28

OBH Question regarding Kyuden Tonbo: Is the change in wording from 'Leaving Hand' to 'Focus or Discard' an erratum? I'm thinking here specifically on how it interacts with cards being placed from hand onto the Fate Deck, which would allow drawing with the original text, but not with the oracle version.

Answers on: Kyuden Tonbo
Brook Cunningham (rules official), 31 January 2025 10:36 · in reply

Ah! I see what happened. The Oracle text is accidentally based on the Winds of Change version, not the LE MRP. I don't think there was any errata reverting it; just a clerical error there. Will fix.