Messages from the Sun and Moon #rules-questions Discord channel, copied for Oracle of the Void. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings and the rulebooks may differ.
In ShE-Format... how many Strategy-Cards of the same name can be played per turn, phase or battle, especially when they have Discipline. Are there any restrictions? Or could i play such a card with Discipline up to 6 times e.g. in a battle if all other circumstances allow it ? Are there any restrictions in other Formats ?
Individual cards retain card memory on the turn they’re played, so Discipline cards cannot be used for the same action on a single turn twice. There is at least one Discipline card with two actions which can be used for one of its actions, then Discipline-played for its second action in the same turn (and it has a separate effect if you do both, I believe).
Discipline cards are meant to be reused on later turns, generally speaking
There is one exception that I can recall, I believe it is Cross Blades, where the action is Repeatable, thus can be used twice in the same turn
Just to be clear tho: if I have two different copies of a same card I can still take the individual printed actions on each card once each — just as I would on a personality or item that I have multiple copies in play? (It’s just the Discipline action here that is restricted, because it is a player action?)
Almost.
Discipline is not restricted for the reason you said.
All abilities are OPT, per copy. But a Discipline card does not forget you already used it that turn just by being in the discard.
Does Lost Port straighten when you use it to pay for the Kharmic rulebook ability of a strategy card? How about using it to pay for the Discipline ability?
1. No; the Kharmic ability is not "on" the card. 2. Yes; there is no "Discipline" ability. It is a trait that allows you to use an ability on the Strategy from the Discard if you pay the Discipline cost (which becomes a cost/additional cost of the ability on the card itself).
Can a bowed personality use the duel action on come one at a time?
No. The Terrain gives the Personality the ability, and it does not say "Tireless".
That's what I thought
How do unaligned and minor clan aligned personalities work for the 2g increase? Does Keppo cost 2 more? Does a wasp or boar clan personality cost 2 more?
What i read was only aligned personalities cost 2 more, so unaligned cost whats on the card
Could be wrong obviously
is correct. Only Clans that have Strongholds in a given legality arc are "Clan Alignments" for the purpose of the "pay 2 more" Rule.
Thank you!
What happens when players are unable to win within the allotted time?
Without an official Floor Rules governing organized play, since it's all fan-run at this point, that would be up to individual TOs.
Thank you!
What's the default Cavalry mechanic in OBH if both players forgot to choose at the beginning of game?
Double-loss the finals? 🙃
From what I've heard at tournaments default is old cav if you don't specify.
hope this isn't too late as a reply; yes, the default is old cav. players will need to announce getting the new cav to have the player ability
(link)
That didn't really answer anything.
In legacy does it count as an honor loss?
Question about this card... Let's say I have an ancestor there, and I use overwhelmed to destroy my ancestor and their one person they have at the battlefield... because they WERE opposed when destroyed, does this trigger? or do I still need to be opposed when triggering this?
They were opposed when they blew up. You're good to use it. I mean, they can't be opposed at all after their dead, so from that perspective, you could never use the Spell. 😛
I see what you mean, though. At the resolution of overwhelmed the spirit AND the only opposing personality are dead.
Ok. Just wanted to make sure that interaction worked.
Counterpoint, Hasty Memorial says Absent Response for this scenario
That's... not a counterpoint? I mean, yes, Hasty Memorial does say that, but the point is that the Spell doesn't check for the dead guy's "opposed" state after he's dead, because he can't be. 😛
Oh sorry I misread I thought the question was about presence.
What if the opponent played overwhelmed targeting their only personality and the spirit gets killed? Would you not be able to trigger the spell response because the 2nd death is conditional to the first being completed?
I do not follow, sorry.
If the scenario is that the opponent uses Overwhelemed, killing their only Personality at the battlefield to do so, then when it comes time to destroy your Spirit (assuming he's your highest Force guy and you didn't move 2 guys instead), he's not opposed, so no, you can't Respond with the Spell. If that answers what you're asking?
Yes. Thank you. An extremely unlikely scenario but helps me understand timing with the wording of actions
Big Deck/Legacy=
Does [Proper Deference] "setting" count as an honor loss for purposes of [Yoshi Sensei]?
Yes
What happens when I play Naseru's Conflict before battle and then play Shameful and Cowardly or trigger Tenzan's ability during battle? Do the 2 targets die?
Imho only one Personality dies.
I agree, Naseru's Conflict ability works as an ongoing ability that ends when one personality is dishonored. Because of independence of effects, only one personality is destroyed.
There can only be One (Personality who dies from an ability that kills one Personality)
disclaimer: this is not a rules statement - it's only a stupid joke
What happens when This lady responds to a 0 cost ancestor spirit being destroyed?
You mean a Created Personality? Created Personalities can't exist out side of play, so you have no target.
Does the gaining 1 honor still proc?
or can you just not use the effect?
I fixed my answer after carefuller reading. Response not legal; no required target available.
Thanks
I think she would just be better if she made a base ancestor for 2 gold and gained an honor after they get destroyed.
If you "Invest" a personality, it says that you may permantly increase it's gold cost by X, to do an entering play effect, so let's say you use an invest, that character gets killed, and you have an effect that can bring him back alive at a lowered cost... would you pay the invested increase and get the effect because you already invested it? or to get the invest again you would need to pay the invest cost again?
I....huh. I'd also like to know that.
Let's use a hypothetical: You Recruit Akodo Scapegoat for 5g + invest 2g (total 7g) [end turn] Opponent Like a Twigs, bowing 8g unit [end turn] You use a resurrection ability (recruit dead personality, paying all costs).
Is akodo scapegoat: A) 5g (previous invest lost, no new invest available) B) 7g (previous retained, no new invest available) C) 5g + 2g (previous lost, new available) D) 7g +2g (previous retained, new available)
You phrased it better lol
a player Well, there is no doubt that the cost increase is permanent, so Jim's A and C examples are not accurate. I would say that the "once" in the Rules for Invest is only meant to limit it to doing it once before bringing the card into play (or else it would say "once per game"), but you could do it again, SORT of like Jim's D example. However, whether the previous Invest effect is "retained" really depends on what that effect is/was.
That said, if @kempy_nezumi wants to dredge the Rules Forum lake and find something contradictory or confirmatory, I would not dissuade him. 🙂
Ah. Clarity, I meant [for the most part] cost, as I agree that what ever you got from it would depend (obv. +1F tokens would be lost, like tears in the rain...)
I figured A and C were out, but had to include them for the sake of asking a complete question
Or would it cost the extra, because it was invested, and then you automatically trigger the entering play effect with no extra cost
Yeah, definitely not that. The trigger is increasing the card's cost permanently, so you'd have to do it again.
But you already paid the once invest
not sure why that wouldn't work.
I also made certain that the Invest was used over different turns. My assumption would be that if you tried to do this on the same turn, the answer would be B in my example due to card memory
Because "Invest (): [effect]" is shorthand for, "Before paying for this card entering play, you may permanently increase its cost by X to [effect]"
correct, once, and you have already paid for it
thats what I am saying
So bringing it into play triggers the trait again, so you have to do all the increasing over again in order to have the effect apply again.
Probably not. It's a trait, not an ability. Only abilities are OPT.
Huh
so the trait is OPT by merit of the trait
but once doesn't mean per game
So let's update my example to explain why
I am interpreting the "once" in the Rules as meaning you can't pay for a 2G Invest with 4, 6, 8, etc, to get the effect 2, 3, 4 etc times for one purchase, so neither OPT nor OPG.
Let's give Akodo Scapegoat (5g base) a 2g invest to put 2 +1F tokens on him.
Obviously when he dies, they are RFG
However he is now permanently 7g. For anything not checking "printed", that is his new baseline cost.
Which is why in my hypothetical, he would only get the +1f tokens back on option D, as a and c are patently wrong, and b can't invest again
Im on my phone. Can you share a screenshot of the Invest rule?
Not easily, but I can copy/pasta the text: "This is a trait that starts with “Invest” and a Gold cost (for example, “Invest (2):”). Before paying for a card entering play, a player may permanently increase the card’s Gold Cost by the additional cost in its Invest trait, once, to get an additional effect after it enters play (for example, “Gain 1 Honor” or “Give this card a +2F token.”) When Invest appears on a non-Strategy card, its effects come from the Invest trait, not the action that brought the card into play."
Hrm. I'd actually argue that no, once a card has been invested it can't be invested again (option B in my hypothetical). Gold has permanently changed, effect has been given once, done deal
That isn't an unfair interpretation, but I would think that the "once" would say "once per game" if that were the case.
Why I think that is hard to articulate, but effectively it's taking your interpretation of "you can't pay multiples for one purchase" to it's logical end. It doesn't say OPT, OPG or once per purchase. Just...once.
As I said, not unfair. I suppose we can just agree that, at best, the exact intent/scope of "once" is unclear. Adding another note to the pile of things to fix in a future CR. 😛
Oh yes definitely. (I was halfway through writing it when your response came up, so I just finished my thought)
Congrats a player you asked a question that broke the game, at least temporarily! Lol
lol
woooooooow Invest is so weirder than I thought
it is not Kicker
I think we are all in agreement there
It used to be. They changed it to have the increase be permanent so that effects which care about a target/unit's GC "saw" an Invested card for what it was "worth".
The primary reason it was changed was the spell Guidance in War
I started asking this in a non rules channel 🙂
Being able to destroy a 10G investment for effectively free with contemporary cards was considered a bad thing
If movement is negated with with rout, does the attachment still pop?
Yes.
Can meditating mind stop actions taken as "battle" if they are "Battle/Engage" or only if it is taken as an engage action?
The latter. CR pg. 20, second paragraph: "An ability with two designators, such as “Battle/Open:”, can be used at either time. The ability always has both designators, but the action taken using it only has the designator appropriate to the Action Round when it is used."
If you force them into battle, and then send them home...winning the battle... do they still die?
Yep. 🙂 :scorpion_clan_badge:
pfffft lol
As I'm reading this text, it looks to me like a case of each time a card enters play, add 1x Invest cost to the card's GC. The "once" is there to make sure it's kicker and not multikicker, thus, if the card is removed from play and brought back, as long as it retains card memory, it's GC remains increased, and the Invest, being a trait and not an action, can be paid again
Would this make the sensei have your attacking shugenja get +2F, pay 4 Gold, to make a 4/4/6PH ancestor? Or do the created personality's stats not count as numerals for this?
I think yes, and I'm wondering if maybe even also the PS modifier
does the additional Attack Phase for Aramasu's Legacy happen before the normal one, after it, or when the controlling player choose s it to be?
Immediately when you take the action.
OH!
okay okay, I'm vibing that
mini game, get your archers in and out, lockdown crucial resources
Yes, those are all numerals, and to answer a player , even the modifiers, which is why it wants to remind you that changing your starting FH doesn't affect your current.
Oh, so it gives you -2PS
And a sensei that gives -2 ends up giving -4PS instead
Or you can buff your defensive sebsei that gives +1 PS
Side topic: i always wanted to try out [desperate lesson] with [voltagi sensei] in onyx
Oblivious scout is active. Can I use this as the first action, or no?
How does “Bracing Grounds”honesty work? Honesty is when it is face up in hand but it says “in play”.
Nope.
To my understanding no, because Unit = Personality and it does not target the attachment it destroys
Honesty effects get added to the action if face up in hand when it's taken. So, Bracing Ground's adds a delayed effect to its entertaining play action.
Ahhh. Thank you!
Diamond Dueling: There is no rulebook upper limit to the amount you can focus in a duel ? I did not find anything in the Rulebook...
Correct. You only Focus from hand, but you can Focus as many times as you have cards available.
or another card forbids you to do it at all
"poochie died on the way to his home planet"
https://tenor.com/view/the-simpsons-poochie-itchy-scratchy-home-planet-gif-3715215
Hello everyone
Can someone explain how Clumsy Ambush works?
Sure.
Let's say you have 5 units at the current battlfield. You play CA, target any other player with units there (even yourself, if you want). So, the targeted player then has to target Personalities he controls at the battlefield until the targets' units' total combined Force is > 5 or until he targets all his units if he can't exceed 5 total Force. Then, all those targets move home. Additionally, if the player controls a Terrain or Formation at the battlelfield, the movement can't be negated and his units that moved out can't move back in.
I see. So our current situation is I have only one unit defending and the attacker has one unit as well with a total force of 10. You're saying the attacking unit moves home, correct?
Right. He has to target enough Force worth of his stuff to exceed 1 (your number of units), but he can only do it by targeting his single Personality in the 10F unit, because he has no other options. So, bye it goes.
Thank you for clearing this up. It's a strange effect.
Hi! Questions about Onyx: Tangen's Lies and similar effects. Is there a way to negate/reverse the "contribute Chi instead of Force" effect?
If a non-tactian gains a tactical battle ability (say through the akasha) can they not use the ability, because they aren't a tactician?
You created the Raid, so you are the Attacker
(in fairness, the rules datasheet does not specify who is considered the attacker during a raid attack played as an Open)
In 20 Festivals Comprehensive, Create and "declare" are synonyms ("The active player may now optionally create (“declare”) an Attack Phase.")
"The player declaring the attack is the Attacker"
No, but your opponent must have an unbowed to make it a legal target
You concede that you understand you're doing the targeting in the first sentence; why would the other verb in the same sentence belong to anyone else?
"to" is connecting both verbs
Eat to live, duck to avoid (hitting your head)
All you.
That does not refute anything I said. You're that guy implicitly in the case of the card. Target verb is yours, so is create.
in all fairness, I initially thought that the active player would be the attacker if played as an open on your opponent's turn
I believe this is correct
when did open actions cease being viable in-battle? was it Diamond? or earlier?
(I just got a batch of Imperial Edition cards, so I'm doing a read-through of the Imperial rulebook and learning the Wild West of Ancient5R haha)
BTB, it is low-key wild that the narrative structure of the Imperial Edition rulebook is all about "which clan will succeed the Emperor?" but that actually never really happens in-narrative as a live canonical history until much much later (depending on how you count it, Toturi or Iweko; but I don't think I count Toturi as a Lion the way we all think of Iweko as a Dragon).
Samurai Edition, at the same time the Rule of Relevance was replaced by the Rule of Location.
Well, Toturi became Emperor because Lion won the Day of Thunder GenCon and he was their Thunder. So, yeah, it really did pay off.
okay okay, Toturi wins first (by my heart serves the true Daughter of Heaven, Empress Iweko I and her descendents)
this is very surprising to me! I don't think I had noticed any Lotus cards where I saw open cards that were meant to be played in battle (but now I will revisit that part of my collection!)
They had a story envelope for every Faction winning, and as each was eliminated through Swiss rounds and finals, they tore it up. It came down to a Crane v. Lion final, and Lion won.
see, that's definitely part of the lore that we need in a book!
Probably more than you realize. Check the Oracle! 😉
it's definitely very likely that I just assumed they were Samurai+ open actions who seemed oddly timed, haha
Say I'm playing Kayo Sensei (Tireless Response: dishonor a guy if one of my Expendable personalities dies) and an attacker kills my Expendable defender as part of battle resolution:
Do they gain the honor from the destruction and then I play the response to Dishonor? Likewise if the attacker is dishonorable: do they rehonor and then I play the response and dishonor them back?
I'm not looking at the card right now, but if it's a Response, you can only Respond to an action, so it has to be an action that killed your guy, not battle resolution.
Makes sense, thank you.
Then I'll rephrase the question: say the opponent plays a (made-up) Strategy that says "Destroy a personality and gain 1 honor". I understand the Response step comes after that action resolves completely so they'll gain honor (or rehonor) and then I can Respond with Kayo Sensei.
Right.
During Lotus a word "printed" means same as "base"? I mean it must be physically printed on card?
From LE rulebook:
Asking becasue of Oracle wording of this: https://oracleofthevoid.com/#game=l5r,#cardid=6144
Also question about BK ability. To refill a Province facec-upi have to put at the bottom of deck even face-down card in such Province?
Correct
Yes, base and printed have had the same functional meaning throughout the game. It's just changed over time which was preferred; we go with "printed" now, thanks to a Rule that text of created cards are considered "printed". That Formation was last touched in Emperor, though, as you can tell from all the colons. 😛
Oh! It took me a bit, but I see the root of your confusion. That Rulebook sentence does not mean "unless the [this term] or [this different term] value is requested"; it means, "unless [this term] or [this other term, synonymous with the first] value is requested".
Just to clarify. Fire tokens are not considered as "attachments" right?
No. Attachments are a type of card, and tokens aren't cards... after a certain point. There was a time when created attachments were also tokens, but the Oracle has that all modernized, because it was confusing and weird. 🙂
In early L5R is there a rule about only taking an ability on a card once per turn? I keep finding cards (like Ningyo) that seem to suggest that straightening is sufficient to reuse something. If that’s the case, at what point did the once per turn for actions come into play?
Related to the prior question (cause maybe this is also how Ningyo works) does the bowing of a Holding to pay a gold cost (or, in Imperial-Emerald, to make honor??) even count as an action? I just realized that maybe all Holdings can be reused if straightened under non-early rules, if their gold production isn’t treated the same as actions…
Before Lotus every ability (Limited, Open, Battle and Reaction) was any times per turn.
(Triggered) traits like those on Holdings (bow to produce X gold) are also any times per turn by default.
So in any edition if you have a trick to straighten a holding you may bow it again to produce gold same turn.
fascinating
I’ve definitely had the option to straighten a Holding in Emperor but didn’t think it was for that purpose (maybe instead to use a printed ability, etc, after producing gold)
This is good to know! Thank you!
Yeah, you'll notice a decent portion of the "errata" section of the Lotus Rulebook was to say, "X card's ability from prior dual-bugged set is still Any Number of Times Per Turn, like it was under the default Rules of the prior Edition, even though we changed that Rule this Edition" (basically).
Lotus feels really “late” for what seems like (to me, someone who first played in Samurai) such a central part of how the game works 👀
This is going to make me reread some of my Gold and Diamond cards now 😂
Card abilities were "effectively" once per turn for most of the game by virtue of the fact there were VERY few straightening effects, Imperial-Diamond.
One way to straighten a holding
At the cost of bowing another, and a dude. Just sayin'.
Small Farm and 0F Taks. Not a steep cost
Blessings Upon your (pre-OPT) Master Painter, Taka-sama
In 20F we have this combo. We produce eg 5G with this Fortification:
We buy this guy:
His ability is also Dynasty, so in same Dynasty phase we bow him to straighten Fortification we used to buy him and we have another 5G available
+1G floating
Maaaan and without the Emperor’s taxation toooooo
Now I see what the anti-Toturi propaganda comes from. You all simp for Iweko because she stopped taxing.
no, because she's Dragon
:dragon_clan_badge:
All that means is you liked having the favor.
i never even used it during that time 😦
Only for one arc!! After that she was everyone’s Emperor.
are there no "Emerald Edition" or "Obsidian Edition" unique rulebooks? (are they just all the same as Imperial Edition?)
on that note, with the Brotherhood of Shinsei, Dark Path of Shadow, and Toturi's Army, what is the "clan alignment" for those strongholds? or do they operate essentially the same as the unaligned strongholds from later expansions (e.g. no built-in gold cost reduction, except what is specifically listed, etc.; but no "clan alignment"?)
Ee and oe rulebooks had updates
(now that I've sorted all these Emerald-Jade cards, I'm thinking of building out a Brotherhood of Shinsei deck, but I'm trying to figure out what that implies haha)
Yes, there are, but there were not any significant rules changes. Just new story and a few errata.
gah, it looks like the Dropbox doesn't have them - what were the differences?
Not much. Errata/clarifications
gotcha
Each new Stronghold birthed a new Faction. Toturi's Army, Ninja, and Brotherhood (Monk) are all Factions/Clans with discount, etc.
okay, that was the unwritten detail I was hunting for - and Ninja and Monk are all Ninjas and Monks, even if they have another clan (e.g. Dragon, Scorpion, etc.)?
Yes.
So Bayushi Aramori also belonged to the Ninja faction in Jade arc.
Yes. In the era where they're Factions, they're dual aligned. It is in the Jade Rulebook about Toturi's and Monks; Ninja came halfway through Jade.
Thank you!
This is very helpful.
Also same for Spirit!
Important to note that you get to do stuff like gain PH each time you pay full for a Personality of that faction's alignment, and so on, too.
Just like a regular Great Clan™.
it used to be so easy to get a new faction
too sad we never got a Yodotai stronghold 😦
I do, in fact, have enough copies of this card to build that deck... ... if only someone would make a stronghold for me.
also, but maybe this isn't a rules question: is that... ... her hair?
I feel like this is a style the Scorpion Clan should've embraced further into the 12th century - bright neon pink, scorpion-themed outfits, deadly hairpieces...
I whip my hurrrrrrr back and forth (Stinging three people to death)
How do Follower Honor Requirements work with dishonored personalities in the different eras? If a Personality's PH drops to 0 because of dishonor, do they lose any Followers they don't qualify for automatically, or is that only checked when attaching a Follower? (And is this different in Imperial through Obsidian vs. later?)
Honor Requirement is checked only while attaching/equipping.
TY!
In addition to Kempy being correct, this has always been the case since the start of the game, or else this card would do next to nothing (although, it's still not that great):
Well, hey!, there it is.
This definitely explains why they dropped the PH requirement in Ivory tho, cause then it is only just a limitation on deck building essentially (or an annoyance when running followers-heavy vs dishonor)
Many Ivory changes were partially motivated by "simplification".
Does Yaheiko sensei’s -2F and Elite only works if the personality was bowed by a fear effect?
Yes. And they have to be opposed and the Fear had to have come from another player's action.
Do banishing effects trigger Expendable?
Just actual destruction.
So banishing a Personality does not destroy it and then remove it from the game, it just directly removes it without going to the discard pile, correct?
Yep.
Thanks, that makes sense.
Question on the interaction between [[Mishime Sensei]] and [[Desperate Lesson]]. Would the created Oni have double the Force of the destroyed personality's Chi?
No. The Force of the Oni/Chi of the Personality isn't a numeral on the Sensei.
Thats a shame, but oh well
Cant really make this Chuda deck work lol