Sun and Moon #rules-questions

A regular Fear cannot bypass followers to target a Personality, so it cannot be combined with one that can to target a Personality. As for additional effects from a Fear such as destruction, I don't know but I'd say the same

@Brook Cunningham

, so MacBeth can correct me if i am wrong but,

In other words, "destroy target" type stuff does combine, "may target items" or "may target Personality with followers" does not

https://imgur.com/4fxS15h

it is iiiii ANJJUIIIIII ||That's me, that's my question!||

so i was wrong here, as Kempy posted my question from 10 years ago "only same-zees can combine"

Great, thanks everyone. This is very clear now.

They would start with a duel stat of 0, and any FV’a would add to that

Ok. That answers the question. Back in gold (when I did most of my play it added to the stat)

Is bowing a holding to produce gold an action so it can be blocked by the shadowed estate of the scorpion?

Which format are you asking for?

Ivory/20f

I always get Commander and Conqueror confused, NGL.

in addition to what's been said: depending on what edition you're playing, only boldfaced keywords (Tactician, Cavalry, etc) have rules directly associated with them

@Jeff Williamson ty

Hello everyone. I have a few questions regarding oblivious scout. can you use Rout to target a unit equipped with oblivious scout? Does targeting a unit counts as targeting a follower? What does it mean by ‘The enemy leader targets this follower with a battle action’? Is the enemy leader the opposing player or is it the opposing personality?

Thanks!

Thank you!

Didn't see the card, just answered based on previous questions regarding cards like Meditating Mind which does target the unit, then bows its attachments (which also applies to the Obliv Scout: even though the card affects the Scout, it targets the Personality, not the Follower)

my apologies. I was looking at an older copy of the card. Thank you everyone!

yes

same way you may use a card with straightening effect on unbowed card

but we are talking about effects. if there's a conditional cost that requires change of the game state, you cant

if theres effect xxx: dishonor target personality -yes you may use it.

you can't use an effect or cost that says "dishonor target personality to do something" and target dishonored guy

Or, wait, the stuff after the second ":", starting with "Lose 3 Honor," if I am reading / remembering correctly are effects, so you can pick an already dishonored dude.

You may use it on dishonored guy as dishonoring is one of non-conditional effects of this action.

if it would be worded "Dishonor him to permanently set his Force to 10 and his Chi to 2" - then you couldnt

Similar logic, "Give him Shadowlands to do something awful" couldn't be used on a dude who already is Shadowlands.

NGL, we need a card that says that. “Give him Shadowlands to destroy X. He does something awful.”

(I believe the moment I fell in love with L5R was when I read Yoritomo Han-Ku’s text: he against the prevailing wind)

yes. It's even explained in CR:

"A card either has a given keyword or it does not. Effects that grant a keyword to a card that already has it do not give it an extra copy of the keyword, and do not protect that card against a future effect that would remove that keyword."

"arent performed" in Ivory+. In Legacy formats still exists "performing".

eg here's Perform from OBH Legacy.

Perform in Modern:

Kojinrue may perform actions that require unbowed performer (even while bowed)

but being bowed he still can't satisfy cost of bowing

Thank you!

@Brook Cunningham ARE yOU THERE?>

if an event gets revealed with Yokuni sensei on the first turn it says I cant discard it, but can I cycle it with the border keep?

I would say no, because the updated wording includes a clause prohibiting cycling it via the rulebook ability, which is the successor to the Border Keep ability.

Hunh. Okay.

So the spirit of the card is to punish the user of Yokuni Sensei a little bit, and it's even been re-worded to keep that going. I don't recall if back in the day you were allowed to use a discard effect to get rid of it, like Augury.

_nods._

Right.

Fair enough.

additional Question about Yokuni Sensei if it is an Ivory/20F/or even in future Onyx Event that have an Open action to resolve, or to be put into play:

1) Will it be taken back to it's province ( like sth like Death of the Mantis Clan)? ANd will it be "in effect" (meaning if DotMC will affect game when its owner will desrtoy province) //i take example of DotMC cause it is just around and wasn't having another example for that without searching)

2) If on event is an Open/Dynasty/Battle/Engage action, if its owner will not resolve it, he/she can discard the event in Discard Dynasty Rulebook ability?

3)IF it was event that triggered in event phase, or was triggered as an Open action (so it was used) You still can BK cycle it into Your deck?

so I was right on 1 and 2 was very suprised at thought that 3rd works..

thanks

I would be interested to participate in one of the upcoming retro gold or diamond tournaments, but i need a brief update on the rulings, as i started playing L5R with ShE. What are differences between ShE and GE or DE? I did not study the rulebooks so far 😅. If its too complicated to explain, i will read the rulebooks and will ask specific questions afterwards 😉...

As like in every edition before Ivory theres no gold pooling and theres clan discount (personalities from your clan cost 2 less gold but you may buy them for full to proclaim).

All Cavalry units assign after Infantry. There are Honor Requirements for Followers. You cant target bowed Personalities with actions (this was still thing during Gold and Diamond? Need to check). Actions are Repeatable by default.

During Gold same unit may break multiple Provinces same Attack Phase.

Theres no rulebook mulligan (Cycle) but in Gold we got first searchable Holding - Gifts and Favors.

Fear Attack bows all Followers in unit but Undead cards are immune to it.

Just typing from memory as i played maybe one or two Gold and Diamond games in the past.

Deadly Ground was still legal in Gold. 🙃

Shugenja cant have more Spells attached than his Chi.

If someones caused you Honor loss you still must follow Honor Requirements to bring Personality into play.

No Interrupts. There are Reactions that ignore RoL and RoP and may trigger at any moment as its written on the card.

Yeah. But still ignored by Reactions.

Can you use a spell multiple times in a battle if you unbow the spell?

Only if it's Repeatable or has the text "any number of times per turn"

Thank you

Also, old Spells didn't specify that, so check the modern wording, because it's usually been updated to say "any number of times per turn" in the Oracle rewording.

OBH Legacy Question Does Plague of Locusts kill holdings that came into play for 0 gold, but have actual gold cost?

yes

I believe that discussion was had here a while back, and of particular note was that BK/BH are immune because they did not enter play but start in play

I don't mind keeping the BKs but I wanted to verify I got something a player

it does require you to keep track of what entered play for 0 gold, regardless of printed gold cost, but it affects both 0GC holdings and XGC holdings that entered play for 0

(link)

That was in play too

And I blew it up as well!

Actually that would have been the best person for me to Kolat Master

:kekLeo:

Thank you.

I have non-Tactician samurai with 3C and Akodo Sensei in play. If i play eg. Gaining Experience on this Samurai, can i use his Tactical Advantage ability this turn or still not?

Does Kisada's Funeral only have Legacy if you use Kano's Alliance?

Correct

Thank you!

specifically, is it discounted by Mishime sensei?

yep just saw the other chat. good to know

really weird, but good to know

attachment legality is only checked while attaching

Thats what I thought, thanks!

True. Although, if the trait says "This shugenja", and this Personality is no longer a shugenja, does it still apply the effect of the trait?

I was just thinking about this one:

If the ex-Shugenja has Thunder, does he still have +1C?

Also, all this being said, how would a Personality lose the "Shugenja" keyword? Starting with 20F, it's no longer a boldfaced keyword, so unless you're playing a retro format where it is and there's cards that remove boldface keywords, I'm not sure how that edge case would happen?

(Oracle text reads: “all keywords”)

oooop maybe that wasn’t a good example card to choose 😂😂😂, but I think I get the principle now!

As I’m thinking about this kind of situation, I feel like it’s most likely that you have a character with a copy ability (like Genmyo or Fukuzo) that copies Shugenja, equips a spell, and either the ability wears off (Genmyo) or they use the ability and it replaces the other keywords, etc.

Fukuzo copying an ability: ka-chunk "I stapled the hooves to my hands. Now I have Cavalry."

Ah, Fukuzo. The best Kami ever.:bow:

I was asking from a design perspective.

https://oracleofthevoid.com/#game=l5r,#cardid=7619 why ability granted by this guy isn't Tireless?

From Lotus rulebook:

@Brook Cunningham @kempy_nezumi

I was asking for OBH/legacy format

Thanks

Question about Moto Naleesh (for some reason I can't post images here, hmm). I want to make sure I am parsing cards correctly. "Battle: Target an enemy unit: Naleesh overruns it. Bow it. Destroy all cards in it without attachments and without Cavalry." As I understand it, this means that for a card to be destroyed it must both lack attachments and Cavalry? If Naleesh targets an infantry Personality with attachments, the attachment will be destroyed, but the Personality will survive?

Sounds about right

to post pictures, you need a role, ask for at least one reflecting preferred format in the roles channel

Thanks, this is very helpful!

(you'll have to wait until kempy is online and gives you one)

I feel like I've heard of precedent on that before, where it only gives you one extra [insert action here] but for the life of me I can't remember what it was that did that

here’s a similar ability from earlier, but with very different ability templating?

I will. But not earlier than end of next week.

For a specific example, what would the FV of Tamorii Futaba's Ring be?

Now I’m curious at the “when might this ever be relevant” level: are there abilities that base targeting of Fate cards in-play on the basis of their FV?

I can't name any off the top of my head, but I feel like there are cards that target based on the FV of attachments. "destroy it if its even" sort of things

Completely irrelevant for Tamorii Futaba, who just makes a blank Ring, but still

thanks

What would happen if you destroy an enemy card during battle before the resolution?

I see. I had been told otherwise, but after reading the text carefully I realize I was wrong. Thanks!

I’ve read the celestial rules from the Dropbox stuff, still don’t get it lol

Example…

Oh looks like I can’t do a picture.. hmm

got it for now!

(also, since CE is a gap in my collection, I’ve never seen this card before: that is awesome art)

Top bit happens

The rules say this card enters a specially created entering-play area

I don’t know what means exactly. Where does the card “go” so that when a Battle occurs, I can use the Battle action

So then, it sits there until I use its battle action after which point I discard it?

but this guy looks like a one-shot, two-shot guy

Right on

(just ran a Mantis vs Mantis the other day, and gosh Yoritomo’s Guidance became a major game changer for that game!)

Awesome, thank you

And theres this one rare moment when you flip up all Provinces with help of Border Keep ability (or Cycle in Modern format) and all Celestials revealed this way enter play at same time.

tnx!

It seems as if in OBH you can use any Region in any Battle. I wonder if this is intentional, or an oversight.

in OBH if theres no rule about something specific in OBH or 20F ruleset you follow Emperor. So Regions in OBH works like in Emperor.

To be clear: I accept and it should make sense that Regions only work at battles at that province, but it doesn't seem to actually explicitly outline that anywhere.

.

Since Samurai you may play Battle actions on Regions at any batlefield. Check eg Seikitsu Mountains from Samurai. It was really popular in all military builds.

Same for abilities on Holdings.

Or other cards in play like Celestials or Katas.

i edited my post about performing as i wrote it wrong. Actions on Regions may be performed but arent performed if action doesnt require it. Ijust wanted to say that ability on Region may be played at any battlefield but if action from it is still performed (by Personality or Follower) such Personality and Follower must satisfy RoL/RoP

Imho. You announce Recruit, you target a Perspnality in Province and you are going to pay a cost. If you start with bowing Stronghold to prpduce gold theres a window for Reaction from KB. Gold production from SH is negated but Stronghold got bowed. You may keep producing gold from other holdings as KB negates only one source of gold frpm Stronghold. I think it works this way.

That sounds like the intent yes. It also sounds like what the card does according to Oracle.

Also its worth to.mention that bowing a Holding or Stronghold to produce a gold isnt action so it doesnt follow once per turn rule. If you have a way to straighten Stronghold or Holding you may bow them any number of times per turn to produce gold.

But i dont know if you have to pay with other sources to finalize Recruit or you may just stop here.

I would say you are all in the same recruit action. So making more gold is available.

That's the way I have been playing it in the tournament at least

Yeah, but can you make the choice to stop since your opponent played KB? If I have more gold to pay, but I would rather buy a different personality instead for example. Or am I "forced" to go through with recruiting my original target.

Right, my response above is kinda that question as well.

Love the game but the ruling questions drive me crazy sometimes and has been for the past twenty years. 😂

Some of us like messing with your gold.

Mess with my gold all you like but not my head!! 😂

I was running Yasuki Dishonor vs Lion Paragons yesterday in a solitaire game, and this was a very fruitful way to reach -21!!

I would never!

Wait, wait, hold on... if I bowed Luxurious Silk for paying something, can I use its reaction in the same phase or turn to pay for another thing?

🤯

I had never attempted to do that because I though you could use a holding to generate gold only once per turn

Indeed, it is

The Ghost of Bill Mays: Do you like obsidian mines but hate losing honor? HAVE I GOT A DEAL FOR YOU!

Previous versions of such cards will sometimes have additional wording to say like “hey, you can do the thing you hope you can do here” (this is on one of the farms…

I hope you don't change your mind any time soon, since I just learned how to exploit that 🤣

Luxurious Silk is only broken in OBH. Same with Aramasu's Vigilence. But so is Forests of Shinomen for the Naga - all free gold. Not to mention FotD.

Imo gold that flips entering play is the problem lol.

Wow, that card even clarifies you can use both things in the same turn

It's just other players getting hard coded at 4 flips for production on one of their decks. But someone else managing double or triple that is a bit strong.

It's just a bad rabbit hole to go down into. I think we should limit or prevent "infinite combos", the truly degenerate stuff, for the integrity of the format, but to ban cards we don't like or think is too strong is something I'm NOT a fan of in powerful eternal formats like this.

Where do you start and stop?

There's no way to please everyone and it might just make people leave the format.

Agree. I know that OBH guys are monitoring some cards. And i hope that Corrupt Geisha exp is one of them as this card is just too much goodness in one place.

The multiplayer cards.... Are probably a bit much. But I think formats got competitive with each other. Worried that if their format didn't offer the same cards people would play it less.

But these aren't rules questions. Just someone trying to figure out how to beat Dragon dueling later this week.

4 focus value huh?

https://tenor.com/view/mark-cuban-shark-tank-notes-taking-notes-remember-gif-15073512

https://youtu.be/SxlW79tDhCA?si=HXZiOiSBKd2EUvuX

it's been ruled before that you can use the abilities of a region even if the current battle is not the province where the region is located. don't have the ruling with me right now though.

speaking of regions...

anyone built the deck using this? It's a light version of the old The Final Wave deck.

force your opponent to declare an attack then bring big guys into the battlefield.

(although actually now as I’m thinking I don’t think an ability like Yasuki Tanimura applies to Strategy cards worded like this pooh)

FOR THE WALL

"Hida may have the Kami keyword, but we all know who the real Crab Kami is." 😉

This card got banned during Emperor.

Yeah. Its in one of the pinned posts of (link) channel

Guys, before the game starts, can I put all the cards in my provinces back to the top of the Dynasty deck and then shuffle it several times before taking four new cards to fill my provinces or that would be against some rule? I'm referring when playing using Sun and Moon.

I mean....technically if you have not peeked at them then it would be no different than a manual shuffle, but why? the platform automatically shuffles for you

I am testing a new deck with 17 personalities and 20 holdings, so I began 30 new games in "Play Solo" mode and in more than 75% of the games I began with 3 or more personalities in my provinces... and in almost half of those games, I got 2 or less holdings after cycling those 3-4 initial personalities

In short... I don't like at all how the client shuffles the deck at the beginning

I see, and I understand your point, that's why I wanted to bring that scenario here. My next option would be to reduce the number of personalities perhaps down to 16 or 15 with 21 or 22 holdings. Maybe that improves the consistency of the shuffles

I agree. "Starting play shuffle and draw" shuffler can get weird.

Im totally on board of putting your dynasty and fate hand back in deck and shuffling 3-21 more times then redraw and refill

I sometimes do this in solo play when i keep seeing the same uniques/ cards in almost the exact same order

(But both players would have to agree BEFORE starting the match/ seeing your hand)

(These are my opinions and not offical/unoffical/rules)

From EE CR:

I think I'm more confused after reading that. Can you explain please? Lol

"If any specific payment of a cost is negated, delayed, or made impossible in the process of paying costs, the player paying the cost may use alternate available sources to pay it, or may choose not to pay it." It's probably most important part for you. 🙂

OK got it

HR is checked before you pay gold cost in EE

Oooooooh, so Scars of War / Tsujiken etc can’t prevent a cost-in-process — because the honor loss happens at the gold cost stage, but after HR have been checked

(in the situation of my solitaire game I had Lion at 1 Honor, and they were wanting to recruit a 0HR Deathseeker, but they had to use the Honor draining holding for its payment.)

Sooo I can use this region even on the attack?

Yup

Attachments rules question: how do you transfer attachments? Are there some that are easier to move than others (yes Items, no Spells?), or whatnot? Does it cost anything, or does it take a Limited action? I remember this being something that was possible but I couldn’t find it in the Emperor Rulebook (and if there’s differences between Emperor vs Ivory+ please let me know too!!)

That was something unique to the Clan Wars arc. You could bow 2 personalities to transfer an attachment from one to the other. I don't think this player ability was kept later on in the game.

Darn, that probably explains why I couldn’t find explanations of how it worked (other than the general “if a card says ‘transfer’ it means…”)

this means I definitely need something for my (Emperor arc) Yasuki Dishonor deck to try to attach at Open speed for some shenanigans

Yep. However! There is a holding in Onyx that lets you. It doesn't help for OBH or Emperor though

It was legal up through Lotus Edition actually. I played against someone in the lotus tournament who made very explicit use of that ability to copy force into other personalities and then pump their other ones. By then, you didn't have to bow the personalities, just the item.

They removed it in Samurai edition.

I did find a Holding in Emperor that lets me do this in its own way, so that helps

(and I happened to pick up a playset by accident recently!)

In Celestial (and Legacy) we also have this excellent Wooden Barricade.

https://oracleofthevoid.com/#game=l5r,#cardid=9367

Try to simulate openings in "dummy" 1vs1 game. you may host two (or more) copies of snm on same machine and play agaisnt yourself.

If you're on macOS, you have to copy "Sun and Moon.app" to another name, which you can copy&paste, so you end up with "Sun and Moon copy.app".

Whelp....there goes the combo.

In ShE rules, if you have the favor, can you TAKE the favor?

Rather, if you have the favor, can you still use the Lobby action (for instance, to permit Shigekawa's Court straightening)?

No.

For such honor gain after bringing Personality outside of Dynasty Phase and from your Province you require specific effect like this:

Onyx ShE fast clarification please does [Blades of Truths] "Set this Weapon Force modifier to equal the target's (card) FV" is a bonus or it sets force of this Weapon?

so if i will shov a card with 2FV will it be 4 Force then? or only 2F?

My understanding is that it is a bonus to the weapon but this doesn't count as a bonus to the personality because it is still a modifier to the personality. So if there is some card that can cancel a bonus to an item itself then it could be cancelled but it could not be cancelled by cards that cancel bonuses to a personality because it is still a modifier to the personality not a bonus. Hope this is clear and I stand to be corrected by the rules gurus!

My is the same i was always playing it as it is Seting force modyfier not adding a modyfier

but I need some rules guys to check it as I heard that it was already discoussed and its the other way around and I am kind of suprised...

So to answer your question about 2FV, this would not be a bonus even to the weapon because it is starting at 2 already. But if you had a 4 FV card then this would be a bonus of +2F to the weapon. Hmm well I haven't heard the discussion so we will have to wait and see if someone can enlighten us!

but heeding words that i just heard 4FV card would give it +4 Force tus BoT exp wyould have 6Force then

Wow, it would then be probably the best item in ShE, if it was not already. Cost to force ratio is already so good.

I think the same...

When you set a value on a card, you give the card a bonus or penalty equal to the difference

I misunderstood him

late evening tired brain, I think, because I tried explaining it over voice the way Ishiken answered (which led to this)

we were talking afer his match and i just was tired enought that i understood he showed 2fv card not 4fv

I may also have had late evening tired brain affecting my explanation thereof on voice

So, if the card the opponent shows has 2 FV, the weapon doesn't get a bonus, right? since its initial modifier wouldn't be modified

Yup. If it's 1FV, the weapon even gets a -1F penalty to its modifier

I see, got it

This trait provides bonus only when it's in play.

Can Akodo Eirasu die in one battlefield then come back at another battlefield within the same Attack Phase?

As long as he did not die during battle resolution and you have presence at the new battlefield

(Would the newly-recruited Eirasu “know” that it died in battle resolution previously such that the “only one battle” restriction applies to him?)

Card has memory unless its both: out of play and facedown.

So face up cards in discards have their memory until end of turn. Card that goes to hand or is shuffled back in deck loses its memory.

Interesting interesting!

Eirasu doesn’t care how he died. You could bring him back at another battlefield if he died at resolution earlier Edit: looking further, with respect to the only one battle rule, that would apply if you were attacking so resolution would matter. There’s no problem with multiple defensive battles.