Messages from the Sun and Moon #rules-questions Discord channel, copied for Oracle of the Void. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings and the rulebooks may differ.
Are -1F tokens "force penalties" for the purposes of cards that negate force penalties?
Yes.
Bayushi Kazutoshi’s text reads: “Other players' Personalities in and out of play have their Honor Requirements increased by 10.” Am I right in thinking this has no effect on a personality whose Honor Requirement is “—“ (vs “0”)?
(I can’t seem to post an image of the card, sorry! — I’m also loosely aware that Honor Requirements rules changed post-Emperor, so let’s say the situation is just in Emperor for now…)
(You need a role to post images, ask for those based on your preferred formats in the (link) channel)
"A dash (–) Honor Requirement means that the Personality has an infinitely low Honor Requirement; lower than any numerical Honor Requirement and equal to any other dash Honor Requirement."
So increasing it by 10 still means "-"
Thank you! That’s what I thought — and also thanks for the heads up wrt roles — I will head over there!
also: this is the situation that led me to discover that Ivory solved the “why don’t we just pay the cost on the card???” problem in L5R — man, I am about a decade behind!!
I mean, you do still have to pay 2 more Gold if you're buying a guy with an Alignment that isn't yours, but that does at least flip "you don't pay what you see" to be far less frequent.
Yeah, I was just talking with someone in my playgroup about how much easier the on-ramp to the game would be if the rule was “extra cost for the atypical thing” rather than “discount on the usual thing,” and it looks like they made that happen!
Although now it’s got me wondering if this causes imbalances when playing cross-Arcs with some of the “gold cost matters” cards in Emerald (and this is why we play within Arcs…)
Inevitably, but "balance" isn't really much of a thing if you open up beyond Arc/Edition barriers.
Very true!
As Ivory era Personalities are rather weaker than in the past (costs comparing to their power/stats), some Legacy formats allow to use Clan discount for them. And even with this discount only few are playable in such formats (mostly those that cost low or even 0).
I’ve been wondering how folks play Legacy when you’ve got so many different rule sets — how do they handle the differences between the Ivory double-sided strongholds and the Emerald Bamboo Harvesters and Samurai Legacy Holdings all that?
(I pretty much only have the opportunity to play IRL either Samurai or Emperor arc, because those are the decks I own and my friends own.)
There's a fan Legacy Ruleset people generally like called Obsidian Hand Legacy, or "OBH". There's also a couple of singleton formats called Modern (only Samurai Ed forward) and Big Deck (80/80 decks). You can find these in the middle Dropbox link in the Welcome channel.
I was just hunting those down! That’s helpful, thank you!
Another rules question came up in a game today. Does Brilliant Cascade Inn trigger the trait of Nexus of Lies?
No. Nexus only increases the loss a player does to themselves
Technogashi is correct. To elaborate, an Honor loss (or any effect) "from" a card doesn't make any logical "because of" leaps (like, I imagine you were wondering if the loss was somehow "from" the Personality that Cascade Inn targeted, but no); it literally means "on the card": "FROM # Some things check to see if other effects, actions, or targeting come “from” a given source. The source is the card that the effect, action or targeting is printed on, or the rulebook if it is printed there." -- definition of "From", Comprehensive Rules pg. 78
So if I'm reading that right, if I were to say do a duel that killed a dishonorable personality then Nexus of Lies would activate because the honor loss is coming from a card they owned?
No. Dying dishonorably honor loss comes from the Rulebook.
When this card is targeting, does the fear 3 affect the whole unit stack? Ie if the unit stack has a 2f follower.
Fear was different in Diamond.
How did fear work?
Honestly, a proper conversion has never actually been done.
I don't remember
Fear targeted the unit (read: Personality), then bowed all their Followers equal to or under its strength but never affected the Personality unless explicitly stated (as you see here).
Oh
So it was more aoe of sorts
Yeah. Fear was gone for an Edition or two (or three?) until Ivory brought it back, and I never finished a full Ivory-conversion on the Oracle.
Does fear act the same way as in diamond for obh? Or is it current fear rules?
If OBH Rules don't have an explicit exception to current Fear rules, then it'd have to be governed by current unfortuntely.
In most cases that's not an issue, because most Fear was written shorthand like it is now; you just interpret the shorthand by the newer Rules. However, on oddbally cases like cards that try to modify Fear based on how it used to work, things get borked and just don't work, unfortunately.
so for obh, assuming fear rulling is current. would this be an exception because it says to target the unit?
Well, targeting a unit is synonymous with targeting the Personality, so in the absence of an Oracle rewording taking Ivory Rules into account, as written it would then only target/effect the Personality. But because it is explicitly targeting them, it could do so even if the Personality had attached Followers, the card's explicit targeting overriding the rulebook Fear restrictions on targeting of Ivory/20F.
cool. so its still pretty strong then
its kind of a power common...
Not as strong, but yeah. Maybe after GenCon, I'll fix all the Oracle pre-Ivory Fear actions. 😛 "Battle: Fear 3" would become "Fear Battle: Bow all non-Undead Followers with 3 or lower Force in a target Personality's unit."
(Undead cards were immune to Fear in every Edition it existed as "Fear X" prior to Ivory; it was story-driven as "Fear" was a literal "Fear of death".)
ah
but undead have no brains... how can they be afraid? 🤣
More like "they're already dead; no need to fear it"; but potato/poTAHto. 😛
question for stating things does [Yamigatai] , adds its trait +2f in the engage segment?
and additional one: do personalities are opposed in engage segments (if there are presence of at last one personality from each player) ?
1. No; Engage is also different than Combat 2. Yes; "opposed" is a state Personalities are in the entirety of the time they are at a battlefield with enemies in the other army.
Can you cast a spell attached to a Shugenja, if the shugenja is bowed?
There is no Rule preventing it. However, if the Spell's text says "Bow this Shugenja:" or "Bow this Shugenja to [get X effect]", then you obviously couldn't cast those specific Spells.
whoa I did not know this! is the same principle true for weapons?
(Obviously their force bonuses don’t count for battles anymore, because they add to the Personality’s Force and don’t count on their own.)
Yes.
You say "anymore", but that's pretty much always been the case; no change there.
I definitely thought “if the wielder is bowed, you can’t do the thing” — glad to know that’s not the case!
Oh i had another one. My opponent was using the scorpion stronghold that lets them name a card and their first ability is countered. If they name my shugenja, will it counter a spell attached to them?
No. The Spell action is not "from" the Shugenja, it's from the Spell. "FROM # Some things check to see if other effects, actions, or targeting come “from” a given source. The source is the card that the effect, action or targeting is printed on, or the rulebook if it is printed there." -- definition of "From", Comprehensive Rules pg. 78
Note the Scorpion Stronghold in question says specifically: "Tireless Open: Name a Fate card, or name a Dynasty card in play. Negate the effects of the next action from a card with that title."
Thank you so much ^^ im loving the game but i want to know the rules better. It is a godsend having a place to get clarificatio
Sezaru and Eclipse approve!
question guys with Otomo Sensei and the fortified monastery of the dragon. If I'm using Otomo, and the other player goes to search for the ring at the start after showing the strongholds. Can I already use otomo to discard the ring?
@Brook Cunningham , @kempy_nezumi ? or anyone?
anyone?
I guess my question here is would you have a hand at this point?
No
thanks
Can The Shadowed Estate of the Scorpion name holdings to stop you from generating money?
please see one of the more knoledgable people for an official answer,
iirc at least since Ivory, bowing for gold production is not an action, and the SH only prevents actions.
Barley Farm generates gold via a Reaction, as does Luxurious Silk, and probably a few others (I forget)
Everything else generates gold via a trait or a gold production stat.
Per the 20F comp rules:
it bows the card to use the gold production stat, not the action on the card.
Alright thats super helpful thank you! and If I use The Eternal Temple of the Phoenix, to look at the top 3 cards of my deck, do I shuffle afterwards? it doesnt say so but it might be a baked in rule
Well, I have good news there. Look is not the same as Search.
Search requires you to shuffle. "look" allows you to peek, but not change the order at all.
This makes cards like Eteranal Temple and Temple of Gisei Toshi very useful when fighting against or using a dueling deck, as you get to see the top few cards of your deck without changing their order.
Contrast with the Legacy action which searches your deck, requiring a shuffle
Thats super cool ^^ Thank you
Temple of Gisei Toshi is very pwoerful precisely because of that, you can see what cards are coming and you can even draw them with Rekka Suresh, that's a good combo
Hello guys, question with the stronghold City of Remembrance Under Diamond rules. Does this card reduces the gold cost of uniligned nonhumans which are not shugenja? ot they have to be shugenja?
Must be Shugenja. The only noun in the first trait is "Shugenja"; Unaligned, Nonhuman, and Phoenix Clan are all adjectives describing that noun.
yeah, thats what I though, and I replied exactly the same some time back when I was asked, but then I got the doubt myself. Thanks
@kempy_nezumi @Alex Jones @Brook Cunningham do you have an updated version of 20F comprehensive rules? I know there were additions made to the first version. Thanks.
Do you mean additions for Onyx, or additions between 20F start and 20F finish? Because if the latter, no, none of us have such a thing; I don't believe there were any additions made to it directly. Just Rulesheet things that never made the main doc.
Oh okay. I saw that there were additions like Tacticians can only play one tactical action.
There's a lot of concepts in the 20F CR that I'm still trying to grasp.
there is a document in the dropbox file, but its missing the Honor keyword
Tactical actions beyond the Rulebook one were revived for Onyx after being gone in Ivory/20F. Sounds like you want the Onyx Datasheet, which is supplementary to the 20F Comprehensive Rules. I intend to combine them at some point, but have not yet.
Was there like a test before to become a judge or part of the rules team?
Nothing formal, no. 😛 I'm told existent/outgoing Rules Team members vouched for/recommended my appointment, based on insightful questions and arguements I put forth in the Rules Forum when I was still just a player.
I just want to test my rules knowledge if I understand the concepts correctly.
Is a weapon considered a force bonus?
Not their stat in the upper left corner, no; that's a "modifier". If they have a trait in the text box that gives +XF to its Personality, though, then that is. Like this:
The +2 is a modifier; the trait is giving a bonus.
Focusing in Legacy, of course.
Hrm?
Are +1F/+1C counters modifiers or force bonuses?
Im getting really confused about what Hida Saiyuki makes stronger
the way it was explained to me, is basically
If its not an item stat (upper corner of an item) or not a sensei, it is a bonus. The two i listed are modifiers
Well this Saiyuki card killed me by its self :mikadead:
He can be a beast. :crab_clan_badge:
what happens to the cards “Looked” at via Temples of Gisei Toshi? I saw a thread earlier that said “look” does not imply a shuffle of the deck, whereas “search” does, but this is looking at four cards (do they remain on top in their order?)
correct.
Definition of Look: "LOOK # To inspect a face–down card without showing it to anyone else or changing its position (for example, in a deck)."
fascinating — so this means it does grant you knowledge of the top of the Fate deck too — TY!
I meant I would like to focus on OBH in learning the rules.
Ah, I see. It primarily uses contemporary Rules, as I recall. There are some differences like using Emperor-era starting Holdings, removing the "Cycle" Rulebook ability since they expect you to use Border Keep or Border Keep Exp 2 (but don't accidentally use BK Exp1, because it was MRP'd for Ivory and not as good as it was in Emperor), and it allows you to pick if you want to use pre- or post- Ivory Cavalry Rules.
So does this work like this? "Player declares attackers, declares no attackers, I declare defenders, cannot defend because there is no attackers, then they cavalry to a battlefield that I instantly lose because I couldnt defend"
I guess the question boils down to "Can you declare an attack with no units attacking"
Yep. thats how a lot of ivory and post ivory Cav decks worked. Its not an auto-loss though, as the defender can still use Absent actions.
clarity
you can defend provinces even though there are no one attacking them.
you can blind-defend
so what ends up happening is that a cav deck will be able to cav into the first province or two easily, as you will not have the coverage to defend them, unless you guess that they want to destroy something very specific, but as you lose provinces their available space dwindles, and you can start defending properly
it can feel like that. but it depends on what your deck is doing
let me know if you would like to play, ill take them out for a spin to help you get used to things. but DM me, or move the chat to Ivory. we've moved past Rules questions
....this left all my stuff hanging in mid air lol. it was fine, it was just time to move the conversation on to another channel...
Wait, if the attacker doesn't assign units, you can't defend? WTF? When did they break that?
I used to be that even if the attacker didn't assign any units to attack you, you could still defend, take actions, resolve a battle at each province, and so on.
Theres no and never was a rule like this.
You can defend after Attack is declared even if theres no assigned attacking units.
Good. Was worried someone had a brilliant idea around EE/IvE and changed that.
Yeah I didnt register that part of the question at first and clarified that.
That said she deleted her half of the conversation so it looks a bit odd now lol
Phase attack is serious stuff. I witnessed a situation when honor player declared Attack Phase as a joke, assigned nobody of course and then get Retribution, lol.
In 20F there's no restriction on number of Tactical abilities played by Tactician (because there's no definition of Tactical in rulebook), BUT in OBH there's still Emperor era restriction of one Tactical ability per Tactician per turn. I know it's missign as a separate paragraph in OBH pdf, but you may read about this here:
Also in Modern that is based on 20F there's additional ruling about Tactical stuff:
So I can't Superior Strategist into a tactical action anymore? Or does the 2nd action don't count?
Also in "original" Onyx, there were still no Tactical abilities, they were reintroduced by Onyx Lives!. In original Onyx same Tactician could play any number of copies of reprint of Banish All Doubt same turn.
you can't
Shoot.
there isnt a limited number of fortifications You can attach to province? (right?)
and this Card isn't Clear to me.. it is interrupt to any duel yes? (why there is addition "from action"? )
@rawtooth yes
Because it's an interrupt.
what i meant.. that is there any duel that is not from an action
❓
(because it seems redundant to me (that line) and thats the reason I asked
There are duels from traits (like on some old events).
So thay cant be interrupted.
but these are pre Celestial ? or sth like that?
Pre Ivory.
Events phase was removed in Ivory.
yeah but i dont remember such duels my bad ;D
Keep in mind that post ivory Cavalry can only be used once per turn, so they could only cav into one province
Test of the Emerald Champion
second thing for these Personalities of that kind, do I need to have Alliance card in play or just in deck is enought?
Also in late Emperor Event named The Empire's Foe Exposed was resolving in Events phase ignoring Limited: designator.
Must be in play.
I’m thinking of all kinds of funky consequences for this — I had never considered that as a strategy!
Im a little confused on the Deep Harbor holding, does it Bow for 1 gold and effectively 3 gold for a holding, or do I bow it to make a holding cost 2 less, then have to bow another holding for money?
the bow cost needs to be paid for either effect, so it's an either/or
you either bow for 1 Gold (unrestricted), or bow to give a Holding -2GC
Okie thats what I thought was just making sure! thank you
When i use the Open-Ability on this Holding and transfer a spell from any Shugenja to one of these 2 Personalities, do their trait (Ajinai) and reaction (Chikyu) trigger ? Or do i have to play the spells from hand to make that happen ?
Equip =/= transfer. No trigger.
what a pity 😆 ... i was starting to like this combo 😅 ...
Thx
@Brook Cunningham Equip != transfer, but transfer = attach: yes or no?
Yes.
☝️
https://tenor.com/view/gene-wilder-blazing-saddles-okay-gif-19138467
So if a card states you lose half of your starting family honor but you start at -1 then you get +1 right? 😄
-1?
Did you use a sensei to do that?
Yes
Do bowwed followers still prevent a personality from being feared in Ivory?
(edited to say feared because im silly)
yes, unless the Fear effect specifically indicates otherwise
Awesome thanks ^^
For the Lotus Ring of the Void, if I bow it when my opponent has more cards than I do, should I draw 2 cards or 1?
2; both effects resolve in succession.
thanks!
if Rosoku Sensei and Harbingers of War are in play, and I attach Wandering Budoka, how many cards do I draw from that? And can I draw a card from bowing Bamboo Harvesters xp later in the turn?
How much of this is considered from traits, and how much is considered from actions?
Both the pictured Event and Follower draws are from traits, none of it from actions, so you can Bamboo Exp later, no problem.
so is that a yes to draw from Bamboo Harvesters then?
Oh, sorry I missed you asked about one without an accompanying pic.
yeah, sorry... really it's any other action that draws cards.
I edited the answer to be more complete.
thanks
If Advance Warning is used on a non-scout personality, does the province strength still change? Or is that only if it's used on a scout?
Go home happens. No change to province strength, if the person isn't a scout.
Alright. Thank you
I’m not seeing an ‘and’ there. The province strength change looks like a separate effect that doesn’t care if you’re a scout
Oo straighten unit
The answer was wrong and the card is banned because its templating was messed up.
No no Rogi is right. Province is still effected. But home slice goes will not straighten.
That era was a helluva drug
In removing the aspect of "performing" from the Rules, and that card in particular, the templating for those effects was altered beyond intent and the easiest solution was just a straight ban.
Oh, I didn't know it was banned. I'm just using the premade decks built into Sun and Moon
If you put a dot above the first period. Make that bad boy a colon...
Well, it was banned in Ivory and 20F. In Legacy/Open formats, I suppose it's not technically, but I should probably use my Oracle powers to fix it at some point.
The original, performed version of it pre-Ivory required both the guy to be a Scout and to move home or none of the rest would happen at all.
In the Ivory version, all 3 effects are independent of each other and only the middle one cares if your guy is a Scout. 😦
Stealth BUFF
Too swole, got banned. 😛 I mean, I do feel particularly bad dropping the ball on it, but we were having to get used to a lot of paradigm shifts that set.
Wait, is MacBeth one of the designers? o.o?
"Rules Team", 2009/10-2015. Our job was answering Rules questions on the official AEG web forum as well as mechanically proofreading the cards before they went to print.
That's awesome ^^ Thank you for all your work on this
It was great with original pre-errata Akagi Sensei. Also it could be used unopposed with any movement negation like RoE or Blanketed Forest.
https://web.archive.org/web/20140923024756/http://www.l5r.com/2014/09/09/environmental-corrections/
Does Doji Etsuki's battle ability function the same as the previously questioned Advance Warning, wherein it has two distinct and separate effects for his Battle action? For example, if there are no dishonorable enemies to target with the first statement, would he still be able to raise or lower province strength?
Yes and no. The effects are separate, but there's also such a thing as required targeting, which you need to meet to even take the action.
Okay, that makes sense
Thank you for the clarification ^^
What exactly does it mean by minimum deck size? You must have 42 cards? or do you like deck out early? can anyone explain please? ^^
You must have 42 cards in your deck
mininmum
Okay thats what I thought, was just being sure
that is one of the reasons that i Told You my deck is 46/46 and is as slim as possible ;D...
If you ran 3 of them, would each one increase it by 2?
ohh so it stacks? I see
And you could just not run it xD
yeah
Very interesting
too good not too run it in my deck ;D
Discovering the Daisho of Water doesn't let you use a printed ability twice in one turn, right? Just if you haven't used the ability, this would let you take an additional action to use it?
Correct.
Thank you :foxkitten_heart:
Can I use this on a Yojimbo with no battle ability just to straigten them?
This is the yojimbo in question
You may use would seem to imply that you could target him knowing he has no battle action
The requirement to targeting is “card in a unit.” It doesn’t require the target to have a Battle action
If I understand it right, You need to be opposed for both 2f and Elite? so if I will somehow rid myself from opposition in battle (either bow/move home whatever) even if I used spell when I was opposed I will lose this 2F?
Correct
btw the part of not allowing movments or auto negating movements on traits...
kind of dangerous nowadays... did team thought it through carefully... and It is intended? ;D
I guess you could combo it with Advance Warning in an Extended format, unless the TO also extends Advance Warning 's Ivory/20F ban to that format... or I fix Advance Warning in the Oracle, which I very well may do after GenCon. Other than that, what "dangers" do you see?
Advance Warning doesnt have black kanji so what Extended only format you think about? Onyx Extended only because its illegal in ShE Extended.
I have never seen anybody playing Ext formats after Onyx.
Even discovering those guys who were playing 20F Extended was a surprise for me.
Oh, I was just putting out a hypothetical regardless of its likelihood. Also, as I said, I may just use my Oracle powers to revert Advance Warning to how it worked when it was actually legal to play, but I feel like it's too close to GenCon to do it until after the Legacy Event there.
I rather meant that there are many ways for Dragon to kill themselves by a trait/action due to reprint of [Overwhelmed]
Overwhelmed isn't "your" action. Crucible will not negate its movement.
oh good at last that (i was making a movement in Overwhelmed so I was kind of unsure. but still Osakuro is there and he is a good cheap body that ocasionally can kill Your Tower Shugs ;D
Yeah, your Osakuro + an opponent playing Overwhelmed does = fewer options.
I wouldnt go this way (errata of format banned card) because it will rise a question to "correct" all ever banned cards.
I think it's a pretty specific case that doesn't lead to a slippery slope. Most bans are not reprints who had their original functionality skewed. In fact, are there even any others that fit this very specific description? I'll grant you, it was probably the intent to make it better than a Scout-only card, but probably not the intent to divorce its original "cost" entirely. Might as well "restore" the useable, if more-narrow version rather than the let the broken MRP be the final word on the matter.
I want to say it will modify 20F meta as well.
Ah, but if you're playing 20F arc simulation, wouldn't you just not play it due to the ban? shrug I guess it really doesn't matter in the long run, except for Legacy/Open in which it's probably not nearly as broken as a hundred other things.
Imho for Legacy current wording changes nothing.
I have many questions about overwhelmed as it seems like very strong card but unsure on how to work out its wording. so you Destroy your personality with the highest force, in the case of ties I believe you choose the person to destroy. While not a cost it is required to go off before the second effect goes off. then your opponent can either send home 2 people home but if they choose not too, they target the personality with the highest force on a personality and destroy them. In the case of ties do you choose the target or because they are targeting do they choose between ties? and additionally how does Churo or other negates work with this effect?
I will leave it as it is. At least someone in Legacy MAY try to look at it.
You do Your choices and enemy does his choices
Overwhelmed was kind of solid card (nearly staple) in Lotus (one of the power level editions) so....
I think it is very strong Card, even Format defining
Nimuro is correct above. Also, neither Spider can save a Personality from the destruction, because at the Interrupt timing, it is not yet targeting any of your own guys. (I assume the Overwhlemed is your opponent's in this scenario, and you were asking about the final destruction.)
ahhh that makes sense. so the interupt to work it would need to target before any other part of the clauses would trigger and by that time, the targeting cannot interupt. if i am understanding you correctly
More or less. The targeting would've had to be chosen in the "Choose targets" step, which is before the "Interrupt" step, for the Interrupts to "see" it and work on it, but the targeting that you have to do because of your opponent's Overwhelmed isn't done then. It only happens in the course of resolving the effects.
so to understand the differences, if overwhelmed was worded something like. Battle, Target your personality with the highest force in your army and your opponent chooses 2 of his personalities or one personality with the highest force of their army. Destroy your personality, if they were destroyed your opponent must either send home both of their personalities if they chose 2 or destroy their personality with the highest force if they chose that option. if your opponent prevents any of their movement home they must now destroy their personality with the highest force in their army.
If it was worded this way, you could interrupt as the targeting is done before any effects go off
No. First of all, you worded it "choose", so the opponent doesn't even target at all in your version. Secondly, even if it did, only the person taking the action chooses targets in the "choose targets" step. Any targeting done by other players is only done during effects.
ahhh so because it is me in this senario which is choosing my targets it is not done during the declare targets step instead in the actions effects and resolution and at that point I cannot interrupt as the interrupt window has passed.
Yep!
ok wow, that makes sense as to why that card is kinda bonkers good... especially if you are not using items or anything to boost force and have solid cheap bodies...
there is almost nothing You can do in nowadays meta to prevent this card from going of and just obeying it.
i would also assume as you cannot interupt your opponant could not ring of earth you to prevent you moving home too
If I understand correctly only 2 Cards can hinder it [The Line Must Be Drawn There] and [Faith In My Clan]
You can
no targeting at all, just cancel movements
yes as you would just interupt to blanket cancel movement and trap in and force a kill
brain was misremebering ring of earth
I lost that way too many towers that I'd rather keep
hmm. so many good cards and meta cards in SHe Fate deck is so tight 😦
make it FAT!!.. then make a workout with it, and check what weight was lost {I'd go somewhere else thats not about rules anymore}
What's the interaction between the ShE Scorpion SH (reduce all honor gains from proclaming by 1) and Kisada's Funeral (reduce honor gains from non-Battle actions by 1 to a minimum of 1)? What happens if my opponents proclaims a 2PH personality? Do they gain 1 or 0 honor? I assume it's 1
Right. Penalties with a minimum are applied last and aren't applied if they'll reduce the thing below that minimum.
Gotchu
Another one that came up in our game:
Destroyed: Give a player's target Personality Expendable. If it is the player's turn, he or she must declare an attack this turn. If the target is dishonorable, you, instead of the player, choose where he or she assigns the target to attack, after other assignments. If you are a Scorpion Clan player, you, instead of the player, draw a card from the Expendable effect.
Profitable Losses: Political Response: After a Personality is destroyed, target your unbowed Courtier to gain 2 Honor. You, instead of the Personality's controller, draw a card from the Expendable effect.
If I play Destroyed, win the ensuing battle and my opponent plays Profitable Losses - who would draw the Expendable card? We're confused because Destroyed specifies "you, instead of the player", while Profitable Losses says "you, instead of the controller".
Well, first off, you seem to have the wrong text for Profitable Losses?
It should say, "Political Interrupt: Target your unbowed Courtier. Before the action destroys a Personality, if they are Expendable, you draw the card from that rulebook effect instead of their controller. After the action destroys them, gain 2 Honor."
Secondly, in the scenario you describe, you would draw the card. Assuming you've targeted another player's Personality with the first effect of "Destroyed", the final effect gives you, the Scorpion, all that player's draws from "Expendable" until the end of the turn. So, Profitable Losses cannot give them the Expendable draw "instead of their controller" because their controller isn't getting the draw in the first place; you are, because of Destroyed. So, PL won't give it "back" to them; the substitution effect just fails because there's nothing to substitute. If you follow?
Thanks!
Makes perfect sense
If a card returns to your hand from the discard pile, does it return face-down or face-up? Or does it return the way it was in your hand? so if you honesty and turn it face up, does it return face up? or what happens?
Cards enter the hand face-down by default unless explicitly otherwise.
Thank you.
SO cards put from discard to Your hand are losing its memory even If You just used them?
I dont think its a memory thing, its a state-based thing. Like how cards enter your provinces face down unless text says otherwise
Yeah, but there's not a lot of ways to do that, so it's not a huge issue.
I need a knowledge on its memory Jim\
I'd said otherwise tbh 😛
but nvm for now
Well i said that because cards remember if their effects are used, or if honor/dh'd, but iirc they don't "remember" if they were face down or face up, right?
Face-down cards in your hand don't remember anything I think is more the point Nimuro was making?
yeah
fair enough.
Hello. Can you use An Honored Guest if your Stronghold is unaligned?
Yes. But for +1ph only.
Also you need to be more specific as some Unaligned Strongholds create Clan Alignment.
does it counts itself for gold producing?
Yes
How does It works?
I am asking cause as far as I know when I am focusing from top of my deck I can look at them only after I focused them...
Hrm. Sorry, looks like I never Oracled its text to consider the possibility of blind focuses (which weren't a thing in Jade arc).
cool no worries i just wonder how that works
I don't have the CR handy, so I'm not sure if there might be some sort of clause in the dueling Rules that covers if a blind focus is somehow "illegal". :/ I'll have a look later, though.
and there can be done 2 examples either Hojatsu duels Hoturi or Hoturi challenges Hojatsu (with armor equipped I mean )
Yes, I understand the potential scenarios, but unfortunatlely, the Armor of the Golden Samurai does not. 😛 @kempy_nezumi, I know you have the EE CR in your dropbox, but I can only seem to access it as code; do you know if "illegal focuses" were addressed in it at all, because EE was the first edition where focusing blindly was a thing?
If there's nothing to be found in the EE CR (and since it's not in the Ivory one, I doubt it), then I would say that Armor of the Golden Samurai and other such cards that restrict Focus choices only restrict known/voluntary choices (because known voluntary choices were the only ones that existed contemporaneously with them).
I don’t know if that’s true. What about Royokun’s sword
Royokan?
Ah. thank you for the reminder! So, Ryokan's sword has a specific clause about illegal focuses, but it's not a general Rule. Interesting. It seems I (accidentally?) removed this clause when Oracling it, so maybe the EE CR does have such a clause in it after all? :/ Curiouser and curiouser.
and a player Well, should the EE CR not cover it, and the 20F ones certainly don't, I suppose that the precedent set by Ryokan's sword would be this: A specific, explicit effect is needed to disallow illegal "unknown" focuses, and in the absence of any, those focuses remain and only focuses you choose are governed by effects like Armor of the Golden Samurai (which, by the way and wholly unrelated: AotGS was contemporarily ruled to not abide by the keyword/"Foo" rule and is not considered a Samurai card, FYI). 🙂
Hello everyone. Can you guys do me a favor. If ever asking for an OBH Legacy or Legacy format related query, please include OBH! as a tag in your message.
I'm currently collating all OBH Legacy queries in the discord channels so we can have a collected repository or Legacy rulings. Thank you.
I've found nothing about illegal focuses in EE CR.
Thanks for looking! Looks like I just fumbled my Oracling of Ryokan's sword by omitting its last line of text, which only really interacts with cards like Armor of the Golden Samurai and Bo Stick anyway (maybe I forgot about those rarely used cards when Oracling Ryokan's Sword and couldn't think of a reason for is last line of text to even exist, especially on its GE MRP, thus removing it). I will fix these 3 cards in the Oracle for clarity and agreement with my Ruling above later today. Thanks to all! a player and a player
To confirm, Tsiang's ability if useable from home but could only target units in the current battlefield, right? It would not be able to target units at home?
Correct. "Home" is just an exception to the part of the Rule of Location that dictates where an ability on a card must be from/at, not the ability's targets.
Thank you :foxkitten_heart:
Can this target followers since they are a card? What about weapons? Or is it only personalities?
Yes
Followers Items Spells Personalities if its enemy
possibly even ancestors but I am not sure how they work ...
A card without attachments could be a personality that has nothing attached, or something attached to that personality. This also includes created cards, but not Tokens, which are what Magic vernacular would refer to as Counters.
Wow that seems really powerful, thank you ^^
yes it is strong card
"Destroy a card without attachments" is a pretty useful ability that got very common during Emperor Edition.
yeah but there is a slight catch
it hass to be "LESS" than target Shugenja or Samurais Chi
Ohh so no ties, i see
yeah
Thanks a lot
do bear in mind that all spells have 0F, even the ones that have a force bonus as their trait
🙃
... all spells except for the few exceptions with a printed Force modifier
(my main point was that a Trait-based buff on a spell bonus does not count as the printed Force of a spell)
HUH
that's definitely a card!
hey, it's doubly searchable!
(I can't think of a reason why this might be extra-useful - I don't know enough about Legacy or Big Deck to know if Gisei Toshi is playable in those contexts)
It's got a place in big deck. But you need to make sure you can pay for what you get.
With this, can a player use it on their own personality to destroy poison tokens, and if so do they have to destroy an attachment? what if there isn't an attachment?
Yes, you can use it on your own Personality. Yes, all the tokens will be removed and you then must destroy an attachment. Lastly, if there is no attachment, the tokens go away and nothing further happens.
Thank you.
2 questions about her ability. 1) Can i also target discarded personalities in the discard pile and change their state to honorably dead ? 2) Can i use her ability (main purpose to buff a Samurai with Tactician or +3F) even if there are no dead or discarded personalities in the dynasty discard pile ?
1. Yes, you can. 2. No; required targeting.
If your stronghold's ability has a bow icon, does this overcome that?
Nope.
So it still has to bow, even if it's tireless?
That seems off
Tireless == take the action while bowed Tireless =/= remove the bow cost of an action
Seems off
Not gonna re-iterate that
Tireless is just shortcut for old phrase "Even if this card is bowed".
Yes. I know what it means. Hence why I asked. Seems off that it doesn't overcome the need to bow, because then it's just benefiting certain strongholds
Many Strongholds have literally same abilities on both sides, while side B has Tireless version.
to help to use it eg on first defence
while bowed
Neat, not talking about those 😉
Ignoring the bow cost of the Dragon SH would be busted
IIRC the only 2 SH legal with Shrine to Inari with a bow cost are Lion and Dragon. Lion would be absolutely bonkers without a bow cost. I'm not sure about dragon. its kind of in a weird spot where I think bowing is too high of a cost, but too good of an ability to do without bowing
If I challenge someone with Way of the Crane and the opponent refuses ("Dishonor and move him home to refuse"), can the opponent then use Ring of Earth to stop that movement?
No, on a couple of levels.
1. The Interrupt would have to be played before any of the action's effects resolve, which includes the choice to refuse or not. 2. If the movement is negated, the challenge cannot be refused. Within the same sentence, effects which precede the word "to" must occur or else effects following the word "to" will not occur.
I feel the same, sadly. I think it would be good to have an option to use good sensei that turns off Dragon SH or to have another SH with good action that does not make You play in a certain way/in this instance ir forces to play fast all in/
For future reference can Osamu use his his battle ability and trigger his response to? I'm thinking yes.
This isn't the current version?
See here: (link)
Ah, I forgot to get the mrp
Clarity- The Sky's Barrier.
Does this allow a personality who would not normally contribute force while bowed to now contribute force?
Older version gave elite, so unless they’re changing it that should still be there.
Yes, the effect "flips the script" on the Rules, as it were. Normally, a Personality contributes Force when unbowed and doesn't when bowed. This effect supercedes the normal rules and has that Personality contribute only while bowed.
Hello guys one question, Does anyone knows what the Legend of the Five Rings CCG Celestial Edition “15th Anniversary” boosters include? is it random stuff from the 15 years set? like is there a chance to get the Mempo's in there? or that can only be obtained with the original set? Also how does common, uncommon and rare work here? or everything is considered rare?
The Mempos are only available in the CE15 Clan starter decks.
I'm not totally sure, but I believe the packs have normal base set pack rarity, whatever that was exactly; CE15 was basically like a reprint of regular CE base set. However, the packs also include one of the special "CE15" reprint cards that were not CE legal (mostly) but celebrated the game by printing old cards' art and text with the current outer frame.
alright, thanks for the info. I have been unlucky finding my Mempo of the phoenix clan, so I was looking for options to get it
Yeah, Mempos were exclusive to CE15 starters. Not in original CE release starters either; those starters had the Heavenly Weapons.
I have Experienced 2 Nitoshi on the board, can I play experienced 1 nitoshi as well?
Or is it like old MTG legend rule where there can only be one
Nope. Unique Rule prevents it.
However, if you had E1 in play, you could overlay E2 onto it, if you're familiar with that mechanic?
Yea i was familiar with that
L5R Unique doesn't function exactly like MtG Legend, though. You can't pick which one stays. The new one will just be prevented from entering play if another already is.
"Unique" also dictactes deck construction, and you can only have 1 Unique card by title in the deck at all, differing Exp levels being exceptions.
Mhm I knew the deck construction thing, but I also knew both nitoshi could exist in my deck just didnt know if I could put them out
if you have the unique version in play, if there is a non unique version are you able to play that one?
Yep.
Rule question: can you use The Majestic of the Phoenix ability if you also bow the stronghold to produce gold?
Only the "unique" keyword on cards with the same title conflict; same title but no keyword, no conflict.
You can announce the ability, then bow the Stronghold to produce Gold for it, if that's what you're asking.
If the Stronghold was aleady bowed from having produced Gold prior, you couldn't announce the ability because abilities on bowed cards can't be used unless they say "Even if this card is bowed" or "Tireless".
There's also cards that let you "underlay" a less Experienced version of a Personality.
I’ve always wondered exactly how Inexperienced worked — to my knowledge the Inexperienced versions were never legal at the same time as their non-experienced versions… …. But in Legacy / OBH / Big Deck what… happens?
(And would you want it to happen?)
I don't mean Inexperienced. I mean a Fate card allowing you to play Experienced 1 Otaku Mamoko "underneath" your in-play Experienced 2 Otaku Kamoko.
Also, providing that the regular version was non-Unique, you could bring an Inexperienced Unique version of them out while you had the regular version in play, from what I recall.
I think that happened with exceptionally few Personalities. From what I can see, back in Open, only Ninja Shapeshifter / Ninja Shapeshifter Inexperienced met that condition.
With Coils of Madness, some 12-15 years later, you get Togashi Mitsu Inexperienced and Tsuruchi Inexperienced, both of whose regular version was non-Unique.
There is literally one:
The Nameless One (Shadowlands) could overlay Isawa Ujina (SCC).
Yup. It was an ultra-situational card.
non-Fate, but Temple of Divine Influence could also pull off an underlay
why would you want to underlay a less-experienced version of a Personality? Was there in any format a mechanic regarding this? Asking because if memory serves, in later formats, less-experienced versions are considered removed from the game
I believe OBH Legacy may preserve the mechanic that overlayed Personalities retain the abilities of the underlayed Personality, which was dropped in Emperor or Ivory (I forget which)? (I don't have the OBH Rules handy right now to check. But, yeah, ability stacking is why.)
build a Tsukimi stack with the ability bleeds https://oracleofthevoid.com/#search=type_title%3Dtext%26field_title%3Dtsukimi%26table%3Dl5r%26sort%3D%255B%257B%2522title.keyword%2522%253A%257B%2522order%2522%253A%2522asc%2522%257D%257D%255D
tangent, is Tsukimi the most Experienced person in the game?
I believe the answer is yes, others also reached XP6 (as she did in Onyx) but with the 3.5 version she has the edge
I think Kachiko ties in a way? She has 3 regular levels, but also 1 InExp, and 3 Alts (KYD, CoM, and CW).
I was just looking this up earlier today, cause I remember running a Satsu with underlaid Satsu’s for Dragon craziness in Samurai, but I don’t remember it working that way in Emperor.
(But I need to refer to the rule book!)
Oh, I'm sure ability-inheritance was a thing from the beginning of the game through Celestial, including Samurai as you remember. I think they dropped it in Emperor, as I've come to recently realize that some changes I had mentally attributed to the sweeping revisions of Ivory actually occurred one Edition sooner. Still haven't had a moment to look up if OBH (or any other alternate format like Modern or Big Deck) preserved/reinstated it, though.
This is one place where I think the latter rules are inferior. Bleeding-through abilities is cool!!
But challenging to deal with because you were supposed to overlay completely on top, so sometimes hard to see that there's another version of the Personality underneath themself.
I think it'd be funny to have a deck where the only personality is Tsukimi. She has three versions that aren't unique with 8 total versions.
It's only 14, but that's enough for the right kind of deck.
And with all the non-unique variants, you get to have all the versions hanging out with each other, and one unique version.
the Alpha Tsukimi
Tsukimi Prime
And if that's a bit much, you could instead claim only personalities who have Shiba's Soul. Which opens the door for a ton of options.
Although that does cut out the nonXP Tsukimi
borrow a page from Jade Extended and say "or any versions of that card with the same title"
"if you've ever had Shiba's Soul in past or future, you're in"
Then one person who's unaware of this predicament finds themselves recruited
Ooh, the first Tsukimi was soul of Shiba Tetsu, so he could go in too
"If you've ever been possessed by Shiba's Soul, you may be entitled to compensation."
To be sure, action from this Event in play is still considered action and can be negated by this Oni
Yeah, anything with the designators "Limited", "Open", "Battle", etc etc is an "action" when taken.
Way back in the day you inherited the abilities of the less experienced version
I don't remember if traits carried over but active abilities, battle and limited and the like, did
Nope, never traits. And it wasn't all that way back; for most of the life of the game, overlaying kept underlaid abilities. It was only in Emperor Edition I believe when they nixed that.
Obligatory apology for responding to a message way back in the thread. Didn't realize discord had not updated.
Pertinent for a tournament game- can you interrupt an action that is irrelevant to the interrupt (such as recruting a holding with no honor change, then Interrupting with the Honor interrupt)? (ShE format)
It depends on the wording of the Interrupt. In the specific case of the Honor Interrupt, yes, you may.
that feels like it violates Good Faith, but I accept the ruling
I read Good faith before asking, and it does say you can interrupt or take an action needlessly, it just feels weird and im not sure I can articulate why
It's similar to using a certain follower for its courage interrupt to use its face-up recursion back into your hand for the honesty effect of reserve
Levied Refugees, if memory serves
You can courage interrupt any action
https://oracleofthevoid.com/#game=l5r,#cardid=7962 - what about focusing card from face-up position (like Isawa's Sezaru trait)?
You know, I did try several iterations of "can't focus any card whose FV you know is less than", "or Focus Value you have seen this game" when I was editing this on Saturday, but they were all clunky and weird, so I just decided, "besides Ryokan's Sword (and maybe something else I'm forgetting, which I'll deal with if it comes up), you could only focus from your hand in Jade, so that's just going to have to be close enough."
Question: In the case of card text not stating a specific duration, is the bonus/penalty persistent after that battle or situation? Ex: Shiba Eraki in Ivory - "Before your Spell or Kiho action resolves, if Eraki is at the current battlefield, give him +1F/+1C."
End of turn is standard duration
In the absence of specified duration, the default duration is until end of turn.
Thank you. 🙂 I thought I read that in the comprehensive rules, but couldn't find it again to confirm. Apologies for such a simple question.
No trouble. 🙂
Question... if at the beginning of my turn an event triggered and that province was refilled facedown... if I then used my cycle ability, do I need to discard that facedown card or I can just flipt it face up?
Cycle only discards face-up cards: "Limited: If it is your first turn, choose one or more face-up cards in your Provinces. Put them on the bottom of your deck in any order. Then (after refilling Provinces), turn all cards in your Provinces face-up." That means the ones that are currently face-up when you take the action. But then it flips all your face-down ones, not just ones you chose to pitch and refill with the first effect. If that answers your question?
I see, so, I don't have to discard that facedown card, and once I replace the others (the face up ones) I get to flip the ones I replaced, plus that facedown card too, right?
Right. You flip everything face-down, whether it was that way because you pitched and refilled with the first effect or not.
Got it. Thanks!!
I am reading Legacy OBH rules, and I have a doubt... there's clan discount, but what happens if I don't meet the honor requirement of a personality? Can I still recruit that personality paying 2 more gold or not?? Can I combine that with the clan discount to buy that personality?
Is an action from a weapon equipped to a personality "an action from that Personality" as well?
You are correct in your assumption, you can indeed combine the in-clan no-proclaim discount with the HR-ignoring blood money
No. If you can't satisfy HR requirement then you normally cant recruit the personality.
There's no built in Blood Money rule in OBH Legacy.
Except for the actual event, of course.
Nevermind then, misremembered
Probably shouldn't answer rules questions too early in the morning
So, in this tournament that is about to begin the blood money rule will apply?
The Blood Money rule doesn't apply. You can, however, use the event called "Blood Money" for the same effect.
Kakita meant Event card/card-type, not "event" tournament.
Ohhh, I didn't know that event existed... thanks
Thanks!
Legacy OBH : Proclaim is not restricted to once per turn ?
No. It's restricted to once per turn.
Not repeatable.
Ok. I was looking at the definition and missed the proper restriction there. But the absence of repeatable was the answer 😀👍.
@Brook Cunningham since Proclaim is an Interrupt, this means the "after you recruit your personality" phrase refers to the effect not timing right? So even if you have the favor and Dojis Guidance is in play, you don't get the +1 honor gain from the +1 PH.
How does it interact with Clan Discount? It doesn't forbid to use Proclaim in combination with that according to the definition?
You can only Proclaim if you pay the full gold cost.
It's under Recruit.
Page 8,... i should have read further on. Thanks 👍😀.
Then its hard to compensate honor loss for bringing your personalities into play when you can't bypass it.
If you're Scorpion, bypassing honor loss is very easy.
Well, I didn't make the OBH Rules nor did I write their Interrupt version of what is not an Interrupt in normal Ivory/20F/Onyx. I also don't have those Rules or the CR handy, but as I recall, the normal Proclaim gain is after the Personality is in play, so I would assume the OBH Proclaim is intended to work the same?
That's what I know as well. It's after the personality enters play.
Hello guys. One question with Bridged pass. The card its pretty clear, but on the oracle, the wording can make things a little bit confusing. In oracle it says Battle: Destroy this Fortification to move all units at the current battlefield home. The current battle's Resolution Segment does not occur. If a personality cannot be move home, does the other player still have battle actions to play? or not anymore?
Hrm. Looks like I just messed that one up and didn't put the "end the battle" effect between the two other sentences. 😦
ShE question- Crane Stronghold and Iweko's shadow.
Let's presume that the Crane player uses a Wind to discard the favor, and the action is negated by Shadow. If the Crane player uses the SH reaction, who gets the favor?
Crane player.
The sequence goes: Crane uses a Wind Favor action, discards Favor to pay its cost (now uncontrolled), Shadow player Interrupts which negates the action's effects and gives them the Favor because they action was from a Wind (now they have it), action resolves with none of its effects occuring due to being negated, Crane player Responds after the action and takes the Favor (now Crane has the Favor). The end.
Sequence of events makes sense and thats how it was played, but there was a shroud of uncertenty on it.
That said, minor correction- the Crane SH no longer lobbies, right? it just takes?
Correct
Bah, I shouldn't packrat these old files. Sometimes I click the wrong one.
It's fixed now, along with a few others I noticed could use a touch-up to the same effect (Flattery, Torrential Rain, Hida's Guidance).
how does this work with the rules of Presence / Location? (the Oracle text doesn’t add “Home” to it, so I’m assuming I still need a unit at the battlefield to use it, even tho the performing Courtier can be elsewhere?)
"Home" only appears on cards that can be in units, indicating that they don't need to be at the battlefield to use that ability (as an exception to the Rule of Location ). However, you are correct that you need to have at least some unit at the current battlefield to satisfy the Rule of Presence (to which "Home" is not an exception), if not the performer.
TY! I’ve definitely gotten this mixed up many many times — the Rule of Presence is only overridden (in general) by cards that move a card to an (otherwise empty) battlefield or the like, right?
pretty sure there's no override anymore, as it's been replaced by the Absent designator for actions
basically if there is no Absent, you can't use it in a battle where you control no units
In OBH Legacy, yes.
I do believe those cards that would have needed Absent in an MRP have the next best thing in updated Oracle text, no?
Not 100%, unfortunately.
So cards like wyrmbone katana needs to be oracled to absent? Or you can't move back in? OBH rules
"Absent" was introduced in Ivory, and some Oracle wordings are still only current to Emperor. Time and life and the IP sale got away from me, but perhaps one day.
Yes, Wyrmbone's 2nd ability would be Absent with a fully Ivory / 20F update. OBH has a stopgap Rule for that in the meanwhile, I believe, preserving Emperor exceptions to Presence.
Its not prpblem in Legacy formats as nearly all of them accept fact that card that moves in battle satisifies presence as default (as it was in L5R until Ivory).
Can you use her reaction on her own range attack?
Yep.
Awesome! Thanks!
Note that both abilities are not Repeatable though.
The reaction is not repeatable, but the second one is, right?
oh yeah.
2nd one is Repeatable.
👍
in other words: all your 0F followers can has die
(well, your opponents' 0F followers)
pew pew
Heck, and all their 1F Followers, if we're being technical.
pew pew
I love a good personality that comes on board and says "I dare you to get rid of me first"
O_O O_O O_O
she's not unique either!!
oh, actually:
now I'm trying to figure out if this would be competitive in any way at all in OBH
(it sounds like a fun gimmick to run)
this is the way
hysterical laughter
IT'S BEAUTIFUL
the Tsuruchi soul in me wants to make this happen OBH style now
Equipping a spell is an action?... I am thinking of the reaction from Luxurious Silk...
Yes. Also Recruit is an action where cost is a cost of attachment or Personality. Thats why LS is so good in Legacy / Modern / BigDeck.
Indeed... thanks!
what is Ralish's base force? if i have 7 forest is his base force 7 and satisfies the rules for certain actions?
It is 0. Base = printed, and there is no numeral there, so = 0. It's specifically in the Comprehensive Rules under the definition of "asterisks", too.
When does a card lose memory? If a card returns to hand face down, is it fresh?
Yes. Whenever a cards is both face-down and out of play, it loses memory.
hello I have a question, I read somewhere that rules of gold buying changed at the end of the game lifespan, and you could buy using the excess of gold used, is that true or was a febril dream?
Ivory Edition did change the gold rules. Unspent gold still fades at the end of a phase, but leftover gold from one Recruit or Equip action could be used for another (for example, bow 3+3+2 in GP to buy 4+4 in GC)
that split the difference problem has caused me so many issues in pre-Ivory play 😭😭😭
That's what barley farms were for
exactly true
and obviously he's got a slightly different built that he fits for, but also this buddy:
One way to look at it is the total amount of gold you can produce. So let's say you have a total gold production of 16 by t3. You can buy any combination of stuff up to 16 gc
In CE and EE we had also this:
oooooooooh I need this for my EE collection - I haven't seen this one before!!!
Before the Dawn rare, reprinting in EE:Gempukku packs, not hard to come by
If I name 'Blade of Penance' with Hantei Sensei, can my opponent attach it from the discard pile with 'Govern the Land'?
No. Note that the Oracle wording of Hantei Sensei more clearly defines "use" the card as "play" the card, and the definition of "Play" is this: "As a verb, “play” can refer to: putting into play a card type that normally enters play; using a Strategy card by putting it into the resolution area; bringing a Ring into play; or using an ability on a Ring that is out of play."
Cool, Thanks
Proclaim in Emperor only once per turn possible ? The corresponding Response ability in the Rulebook does not have repeatable. But i dont know if that wording was already introduced in Emperor 😅.
Only one per turn, unless the card says otherwise (like Yusugi here):
Thanks 👍😀.
All abilities from Lotus Edition legality forward are once per turn by default. Repeatable wasn't a thing in Emperor, but if an ability broke the default rule, it would say explicitly, as with Ashigaru Elite for example.
Does Plague of Locust refer only to the base gold cost (those with printed "0") r does it also destroy holdings that entered play with their gold cost having been reduced to 0 (i.e. Palace of Otosan Uchi, Heart of the Shinomen, etc.)
I'm thinking it also destroys holdings that entered play having their gold cost reduced to 0. Otherwise the wording would refer to base or printed gold cost.
Technically, you're correct, but what an unpleasant thing to have to keep track of. Ah, old school Design!
Looks straight forward. Good thing BK and BH starts in play.
Afaik In OBH starting holdings have turn 1 immunity.
Is a link to the rules list posted on the tourney channel?
Yep: (link)
BK only.
Does BK and BH enter play or they started in play
They start in play. Part of setup.
See, that pictured text arguably describes them "entering" play. I don't have access to the CR or OBH Rules right now, but it would provide context if Strongholds and Sensei are perhaps described similarly or differently?
I stand corrected, BK and BH enters play. Strongholds and Senseis start in play.
Mechanically, is there a difference? Can a player interact with BH and BK entering play?
I guess they get hit by Locust too provided the event resolves after the 1st turn.
Yeah, Plague of Locusts was the relevance.
Well, if anyone wants to meta against the free holding strongholds, there you go.
"Locusts et all yer trees, Naga-san?"
Isn't there an important semantic difference between entering play for 0 gold and entering play ignoring costs in this context?
Plague is strong. But I was sure that the meta was like for events since they are very powerful, so I steered away from them.
I imagine if you just spammed strong events tho plague might sneak through and ruin someone's day
Also the madness free holdings
Well most games I have played in OBH has like 3 forewarning
Free gold I'm oddly on the fence about. I think some clans can run really busted cheap holdings that make big money and be just as competitive.
Time will tell tho
Even if you had a lot of free gold. It still wont do anything unless those holdings can create presence and them holdings can flip the province face up when entering play
Still not worried about footholds. Honestly wish it was unbanned
Well the problem with foothold is that it goes 1st.
Footsteps as a timewalk is pretty nice tho.
In OBH, can I play Ivory Ascended, if the personality is already dishonored?
(I'm trying to play it so I can draw a card).
Yes.
Thanks
I think I remember someone ruling that you cannot fetch Ring of Fire with Takao Sensei and then play it by its own text (if you would have otherwise met the requirements), but i'm not sure why- wouldn't the duel action still technically be active after another response is used? Otherwise you could only ever Respond once to any action ever
or does the RoF only care about the "check for winner" step of the duel, so when a Response happens its already past that window? if so that feels very strange
This one.
I mean, I guess that is balanced but that feels very odd
out of curiosity. the ring that Tamori Futaba creates when enters the battlefield. can you target it with togashi limited action to "put it in your hand" and put another into the battlefield? is it like a token in magic? like you can do the thing to it to pay the cost but no matter where it goes it just exiles?
Created cards cannot exist out of play.
That said, Togashi's action's two effects are independent of one another, and the action itself has no costs. As long as you meet required targeting of a Ring you control in play, even if it doesn't go into your hand, the second effect of the action, putting a different Ring into play from your hand, still takes place.
What's the difference between "enters play" vs. "put into play".
Were debating this in our GC and here was my take for confirmation.
My take is mas general yung "enter into play" since "enter" means going from one location to another. "Put into play" refers to effects allowing you to put a card into play. And since it went from one location (hand, province, discard etc.) to another (battle, home) it still entered play.
Basically, others are arguing that both BH and BK won't be hit by Locusts since they were "put into play" instead of "entered" play.
You know, based on that wording I would agree that they would not be hit by Plague of Locusts, as they were "put" into play at the beginning of the game, by the direction of the game rules, just like with your stronghold and decks.
"My take is mas general yung "enter into play" since "enter" means going from one location to another."
Maybe becasue in older cards they were using "enter discard" or similiar while in most recent rulesets it's just "discard". I wouldn't call "going from one location to another" as "enter", more like "move".
Glad to see people finding tech vs free gold strats. Because of how it affected starting holdings, this allowed us to review again how the rules were presented in OBH
On that note, we've updated the rules under Starting Holdings to make it more aligned to its MRP ruling from EE This change clarifies that starting holdings do not enter play, but rather start with it.
See updated rules here: https://doc.clickup.com/.../d/h/8cpnmmd-536/9a60a4f5d0b7d53 See Change Log here: https://doc.clickup.com/.../d/h/8cpnmmd-656/9c1dc2d08b19059
As it's no longer possible to update FB notes, a comment to the relevant post was added to reflect this.
I can't see the documents
Am I reading this guy correctly to assume that he can be your one-man Attachments (and Limited/Open Strategies with costs) payment plan? (as in, he does not need to be honorable in order for the "Dishonor him" line to occur?)
I remember there was a discussion on here (or on the other channel) a month or so ago about the "to" phrase and how it operates...
Nope. The effect before "to" needs to occur in order for the effect after "to" to occur.
You can take his action while he is dishonorable, but nothing will happen at all.
gotcha gotcha - so there's only double-dipping if you've got some Limited / Open rehonoring
thank you for the clarification!
(it looks like there were a handful of ways to get value out of him in 20F too!)
does that alsy not allow reactions?
or allowes them?
(IF PLAYER DOES NOT CONTROL shUGENJA OR SHADOWLANDS AT THE BATTLEFIELD)
No Reactions. They are also "actions".
thanks
Are Sensei revelead after Strongholds or at the same time?
Same time.
As of 20F.
Update the wording on the Dragon Ring box
To match House of Tao Jade
Or else Otomo discards that Free Ring
Because Otomo never stopped the House of Tao Ring grab in jade
you only draw fate cards later on at step e (step a is revealing your box and sensei)
so you won't be able to RFG a card from your hand to use Otomo Sensei
How about cards that are Targeted while is the discard pile. That's not a "search" correct
I think all instances of Searching specifically use that term, but I can't be exhaustively certain.
Agasha Miyoshi is searching while Unshakable is targeting
For your less-than-specific example, targeting a single specific card in the discard is definitely not a Search.
Govern the Land
Nope; not Searches.
targeting isn't searching
what I figured
Hi, Can I use Yami no Kami's Pyre spell targeting the same personality? (Considering that said personality is bowed)
tbh i think it is possible
if you mean the shugenja it's equipped on, yes, if it's bowed
Ok, thanks