Messages from the Sun and Moon #rules-questions Discord channel, copied for Oracle of the Void. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings and the rulebooks may differ.
Question:
A player with 40 honor was able to remove a personality targeted by Shoju sensei from the game during his turn. The personality will enter play again at the start of the 40 honor player's turn.
Will the 40 honor player determine which effect triggers first at the start of their turn? Will the 40 honor player win via honor victory?
What's the removal effect? Curious about wording.
"While that Personality remains in play" is not a duration that turns off and on. As soon as the Personality is removed, he is no longer in play, and Shoju Sensei's effect ends. The end.
Thanks.
For Hiruma Tomoe's Engage, if the follower is Courage, it changes what the Force bonus is, and they still need to be opposed, yes or no?
Yes.
The entire thing is conditional on being opposed.
Though the wording would be slightly less ambiguous.
Regarding duels of personal honor and Gold edition rules, would a dishonored personality still be able to add the total of their focused cards to their personal honor? I'm thinking dishonored personalities will always end up with 0 ph in such duels, no matter what the value of their focused cards were.
When I looked at the shared Rulebook-L5R-GE-promo_learning_set.pdf it mentioned: pdf page 33 "Sometimes a duel compares a stat other than Chi. During such a duel, focusing—and bonuses that add “as Focus cards”—add to the stat compared in the duel. Effects that make no mention of adding as Focus cards always raise or lower Chi."
pdf page 32 "Dishonored Personalities have a 0 Personal Honor at all times; apply this change last, after all other modifications."
Yeah. AFAIK it worked this way in Gold, that FV were like temporary bonuses to stat. It was changed later that FV just added its value to stat (like in Emperor dueling with Duel of Haiku allowed to sum 0PH + all FV of focused cards). So i believe that in Gold dishonored Personality has total 0 stat value while dueling to Personal Honor.
Yep. Auto loss. Was the same in diamond too
If there is only one province left, is it considered to be the left or rightmost province for the purpose of card effects that refer to that ?
I think it's both.
So I saw that there was a previous conversation on this but didn't find a clarified answer. In Onyx Shattered Empire does Naval have its affiliated ability or is it just an empty keyword?
Onyx uses the 20 Festivals Comprehensive Rules when not otherwise stated/contradicted by the supplemental Onyx datasheet. So, yes, Naval still does its thing.
Thank you
if I destroy my only defender at a battlefield with Overwhelmed, and he is an Expendable personality, does Kayo Sensei's response still work? Or would it need an Absent keyword to function?
"Tireless Response: If the action destroyed an Expendable Personality, dishonor a target Personality."
Responses happen after resolution of an action, before passing to your opponent, so no it wouldn't work, it would need Absent
For comparison, look at Hasty Memorial, which has a Response for Personality destruction, and it has Absent
Does Shibata sensei's trait also apply to abilities on Winds?
Yes. Those are Favor actions.
Follow up question. I'm assuming Shibata's trait works similarly to West Hub Village?
Right. And Hidden Catacombs of the Scorpion, et al.
Thank you.
question under gold edition rules. if I play Iaijustu Art, can I play Bend like a reed. The part I am wondering is, the Art says each player focus only once, but does the other play says strike? or the duel ends without the strike part? Or because of the focus restriction in Art I cannot play it? I mean its not a reaction instead of focusing, because the bend like a reed is after focusing
Every duel ends with a strike. Art just makes it so that only 1 Focus can be made before that step. So, there is a trigger for Bend. I would go on to further say that "as if you played this as a Focus" is not equivalent to a Reaction taken "instead of Focusing" nor is it equivalent to actually Focusing, so it would still be legal despite that clause.
thanks for the update
Hey there, just want to clarify something. What constitutes a Favor Action? My understanding is that any action that requires the use (discarding) of Imperial Favor are favor actions.
What's the context?
In final official ruleset, Favor ability is every ability with Favor keyword/designator.
For purpose of Legacy formats, nearly all abilities in Oracle of the Void that require discarding Imperial Favor as a cost, has Favor designator now.
the requirements to play the Ring of Air
So you need to play at least two actions with Favor designator. Examples: a) Arrival of the Ivory Champion linked above as it's Favor Political Battle ability b) RULEBOOK FAVOR LIMITED # Favor Political Limited: Discard the Imperial Favor and a Fate card to draw a card. (“Discard a card” is short for “Discard a Fate card from your hand.”) c) RULEBOOK FAVOR BATTLE # Favor Political Battle: Discard the Imperial Favor to move a target attacking enemy Personality home. etc.
In Ivory/20F enviroment they must be just actions with Favor designator.
Does it mean that cards like Machinations isn't necessarily a favor action, just that it requires the discard of Imperial Favor as an option instead of 3 Gold cost
I don't know Machinations card. If it's Onyx one, you need to ask Onyx Lives! guys.
Same with card like Requisition Supplies
I dont know how to upload photos like you guys do in the chat sorry
to attach any images or files you need to have at least one Role (it's antispam system). You may ask for a Role here (link)
sample cards ive mentioned earlier
Onyx introduced their definition of Favor actions, so probably they are Favor abilities as well. As i wrote, above you need some confirmation from them.
will do thanks a bunch
[Onyx] anything that has a Favor as a cost is a Favor action if you are paying the Favor cost of the action
if you pay Gold instead of the Favor for Machinations then it is not a Favor action
Do note that there are some cards which require the discarding of the favor but are not themselves favor actions because it's not a cost, but part of the action (for instance, the Onyx experienced version of Otomo Suikihime, can't recall the number)
Yes, some Onyx actions let you discard the Favor as a conditional effect to get bonus effects, but because that is not a cost of the action, it doesn't make the action "Favor".
Don’t know how this works… need help.
Black Hearts, Red Blades. Fate card
Describe?
What cards in the battlefield would ever be discarded other than terrain?
IN the Province.
It discards the card in the province
The card it holds waiting to be bought.
So like I have my clan champion in province
You can force me to discard it
Ooooooooo
Okay
Rather than letting me buy it next turn
Got it
Or in a format with regions as well
Does that include regions??
Okay got it
Typed at the same time you did there 🙂
a player No, that does not work with Regions.
Oh
Okay
"In" =/= attached to
Gotcha
Fair enough was just a thought I've never played with regions
Cool, thanks all
Since we're talking semantics. I'd like to confirm if "performing" (like using a printed ability) =/= "chosen as a performer".
#obh
They're pretty much the same. You'd have to be more specific about the uses you're questioning.
Oh, perhaps you're refering to effects that prohibit "choosing X as a performer"? Yeah, they can use their own abilites because there's no choice involved.
Can I use a personality's ability even while Kitsuki Kaagi's Journal is attached to it?
KKJ says "cannot be chosen as a performer".
Right. Exactly what I just said above.
Nice. Thanks.
So in Gold this bonus hits at the end of the battle only. It's weird as during other editions bonus is active since terrain hit the table.
the whole Immediate/Delayed thing got folded in, and you can still see the remnants of it in later-era Terrain design but Contentious went from Gold->Ivory without a reprint, and they definitely changed its function
in Gold you may play Rallying Cry when you played Deadly Ground?
Yes. GE Rulebook, top of page 58: "After the Battle The battle has now resolved, or perhaps a card’s effect ended it without resolution. Either way, destroy any Terrain still in play for the battle (even “undestroyable” Terrains). Players may now take Reactions to the resolution or end of battle, such as Rallying Cry."
Asking for Onyx, using DUTY, where does the reshuffled card go? Does it go on the bottom of the Dynasty deck (like Cycling) or does go back to the deck and then we re-shuffle the deck
"Reshuffle" means what it says, the second thing. If it were like Cycle, it would explicitly put the card at the bottom.
Hello, I'm trying to add Daigotsu to a gold deck, but I cannot find it on the sun and moon. Is there something wrong on my search? If I filter Winds, only 4 appear as well
Black Heart?
Kempy did say just use the diamond version tho here: (link)
Yes, I see Kempy's post, thanks, I'll add the diamond one then
Update on black hand for gold, I just tried in a game with someone else, and Daigotsu wont show up at the start of the game (Diamond version). @kempy_nezumi do you now if there is a way to fix this?
Daigotsu the Wind, was renamed to The Black Heart of the Empire.
if you add the line "Black Heart of the Empire (HE)" to your deck file, it should show up as Daigotsu.
At least, I believe that's how it works.
I think that is not working, is the problem.
Just add this line to your deck:
Black Heart of the Empire (Diamond)
Or while editing your Gold deck in deckbuilder, change a Legal: filter to Diamond, type Diamond in Set box and search for Black Heart. Add this "Black Heart of the Empire (Diamond)" to deck and return to Gold legality then save a deck.
just reinstalled Sun & Moon and checked it out myself. (Reinstalled my OS with Linux a little while ago. I only answered because it seemed like an easy fix, I was clearly mistaken)
I can confirm, it does seem that the HE version of that wind is not in the database, though it is on Oracle of the Void.
You could replace the image for an arbitrary version of the wind in your image folders. That would make it so the card you see is "Daigotsu" instead of "Black Heart of the Empire". So, if that's what you're looking for, you could do that. Though, that would make it so that everyone else would just see whichever version their database tells them to look at. So, it's probably not advisable.
Just use Diamond one. It works same way.
I explained in other topic that is absent in database. Btw Heaven and Earth acronym in database is HaE not HE.
That would make a difference. Apologies.
how many times can we interrupt an action in the context of combining ranged/melee/fear? Like if I range for 4 and I interrupt combine with another 4 range, do I still have the opportunity to add another range or the range attack would go through at strength 8?
A single non-Interrupt action can be Interrupted as many times as you want, as long as you have legal Interrupts to take. The chance to take such an Interrupt goes back and forth between players until both pass.
Interrupt: combine pass Interrupt: combine pass Interrupt: combine pass Interrupt: combine Interrupt: Turtle's Shell
I still don't own gold edition copies of that card fml
in gold, if you fail to find a Gifts and Favors do you lose the game? I know it's on the Diamond version. Just checkin if that was a thing in gold too or if that only got added in Diamond.
I wanna say that it was added as a ruling, and then MRPed into effect for later printings, but I'm not 100%.
It rings a bell as something happening fairly soon. Lemme check.
From the 2006 Accumulated Rulings PDF:
Gifts and Favors • Reads, "Gifts and Favor 2G During your End Phase, only if this copy of this card is not in play and you played no Gold-producing Holdings this turn, you may bow your Stronghold as a cost to search your Dynasty deck, then face-down Provinces, for a card titled "Gifts and Favors" and put the first one you find into play, bowed. If you find none, lose the game. Bow this card: Produce 2 Gold." [MRP, Lotus Edition, 31 October 2005] • If you find a copy in your deck, you may not search your Provinces. [ZF, 15 April 2003]
Sooo looks like it was fair game during Gold?
It's still an illegal play if you made a deck without one, but use its ability. It means you've basically chosen to randomly look through your deck and shuffle it.
Without a game or card effect allowing you to.
ya, i just forgot mid-game how many i had in the deck.
I can't remember definitively, sorry. But given that you're trying to use an ability on a card that doesn't exist, I think the ruling was that you lost the game.
@Brook Cunningham Can you remember?
I believe it changed from one arc to the other but can't remember when the shift might have occurred
As you describe the situation, that would be outside of CCG Rules scope at that point and more of a "Floor Rules, Illegal Play" sort of situation. As many of the others above have stated, I can't remember if they errata'd that onus onto the card immediately or just waited until the DE MRP, though, sorry. If anyone has a Rulesheet from any of the dual-bugged sets (FOU, H&E, WoC), the answer might be there.
ya. nothing nefarious was going on in the game, it was more of a "oops". the WOC sheet shared does not mention the card as that is where I went to immediately look during the game. I did have 3 copies of it in the deck and looking back at what happened my opponent took a province where my 3rd copy happened to be and like 8 turns later I tried to search for said final copy not recognizing it was buried in my discard pile. certainly was not trying to subvert the rules by reshuffling the dynasty or intentionally looking for a card that didnt exist. I was also losing that game anyway, but i'll be more mindful.
Tang inang discord name to. 😆
theres my scan of WoC rulesheet in tourney channel link.
(link)
Also "problem" with KYD G&F is it's looking for it only in deck, not Provinces. So if your G&F is in Province you are screwed as well.
So i believe in Gold by ruleset it's allowed to search one even if you don't have any in deck, as an effect you couldnt even find it if it's still in Province.
Also what about situation if you have only one copy of G&F in deck and it's faceup in province. Possible you can still anounce G&F Reaction to shuffle your Dynasty.
There's still no word about G&F eg in 05.2003 FAQ and KYD got released in 09.2002, so like half year earlier. But it's mentioned in 10.2003 one, but it was after release of Diamond base set where G&F got new wording. Both files are in tourney google drive i linked above
Question is if there was any errata between may and october 2003, just for GenCon. 🙂
Unlikely, if people had played with it differently for months and months.
Wayback machine has only 21.05.2003 and 29.10.2003 FAQ - nothing between.
2003 Gold Floor Rules are enigmatic. http://web.archive.org/web/20030723192100/http://www.l5r.com/ccg/code_of_bushido.html
Oh, i've found that 07.2003 Gold online rulebook is here as well as HTML. Great, made an PDF and uploading it to DropBox as well. :AEG:
ah, it's the same text as in standard "GE promo" one. ;/ So there wasn't any update here.
Gold.
Destroying Personality in Battle Resolution happens before destroying Province? Can i play this after defending Personality and Province are destroyed by Resolution to bring into play a Personality that's face-up in same Province?
From Gold RB:
Or "destroyed by battle" means that Reaction triggers after whole Battle resolved, so after destroying Province as well?
Oracle wording says "by a Battle's Resolution" - was it also true during Gold?
Also in Gold default location when Personality enters play during Battle is still Home, yes?
1. Yes, as evidenced by your Rulebook snip. The same is true now. 2. Yes, you can. 3. No; Reaction triggers happen right when they say they do. In this case, immediately after the Personality is destroyed. 4. These mean the same thing. The only way a Personality can be destroyed "by a battle" is by the effects of its resolution; Oracle wording is just clearer. 5. Yes. That didn't change until EE or Ivory (I forget exactly which offhand).
Gold.
If i have empty hand, played Toturi Sezaru action this turn and i have RoV in play i am going to draw 6 card at the End Phase?
Yes. Thanks to Sezaru, you'll draw an extra in addition to your normal. Then regardless of which of those 2 you draw first, instead of that first draw, because of RoV, you draw 5.
Does In Search Of The Future reduce the bonus of a Celestial Sword? Text: Even if you control no units at the current battlefield: Reduce all current Force bonuses upon cards at the current battlefield to +0F until the turn ends. This does not affect bonuses from a card to itself or to another card in the same unit.
I don't think so, but just wanted to check.
This is Gold printing, so i think that "from cards attached to them" means bonuses from items. So no.
BUT
So seems in Gold it reduces passive bonus from Celestial Swords
As Celestial Sword gives bonus to itself, so it's negated by In Search Of The Future
It's from may 2003 FAQ
Oh well, we moved on, but thanks Kempy!
Question: My opponent plays Tactical Assault during battle targeting my personality. I react with Flee the Darkness to cancel it. In response, he plays Fall on Your Knees. Can I still react to Tactical Assault or has the reaction window closed?
I assume you meant "Assault" not "Advantage" in sentence 4? It rather depends on what you want to React with. Another copy of Flee the Darkness, perhaps? That would be fine; the window hasn't closed. The Fall happened "inside" the Flee (in a way), so the game hasn't moved past Flee's trigger-point yet.
Sorry, I edited the above a few times for accuracy, but it should be good now. 🙂
Yes. Tactical Assault.
Thanks. I'm assuming the Emperor Edition CR had the rules on reaction windows?
Possibly? I mean, there's pretty much no difference at all between resolving a Reaction and resolving a triggered trait, except the former is an action and voluntary, the latter is not.
Oh, and being voluntary and actions means they're taken in a back and forth (or around the table) manner, whereas traits with all the same trigger would resolve (mostly) in an order determined by the active player.
with Togashi Taiki: If I have False Ring of X or Dark ring of X in play, will he get the effect from having the ring of X in play? https://images.oracleofthevoid.com/l5r/c5/59/printing_12113_1_details.jpg
for some reason it's not letting me copy the card image over =/
you need to have a role to post images (helps combat bots). To get a role, post in the (link) channel and wait for kempy to assign one to you
@kempy_nezumi Can you find any Archived Rulings on Taiki? My first impression is that he's only supposed to work with those specific cards by title, or else he would more broadly say, "an Air Ring" (etc) rather than "a Ring of Air" (etc). Where this falls apart a bit is "Ring of Void", but I suspect this was a typo, accidentally omitting the "the", rather than intended to apply broadly to any Ring with the corresponding element. Though I would love some corroboration.
Nobody asked about Taiki and non standard Rings. Probably becasue it's base 20F card and False rings weren't legal in 20F and nobody played 20F Ext.
Thanks anyhow. As you say, the distinction really never came up, and no one noticed/cared about what is more than likely a typo in "Ring of Void". sigh
a player So, unfortunately, a definative answer is tricky. I would say the intent and scope of Taiki is fairly clear as I describe above, if not for that odd omission of "the".
he's just referencing the pre-Imperial version
yeah, I played him as those being strict titles, because it seemed right, but I'd also be curious about overall intent, since the other options didn't exist in 20F specifically.
Yeah, to be honest, there was little to no consideration/intent given to "overall" interactions in the Ivory/20F "end times". I can't think of specific examples right now of battles I fought, win or lose, for preserving some continuity/throughline between larger environments and the "now" of the time, but such things were generally not even an afterthought.
Is there an easy way to export the images for Onyx and SHE decks into a PDF for printing? we are looking to play with our group, but the only way to find the cards that I have been able to find, is to look in the database for the card code, and look for the card to put it in a word or something. Which is too much of an effort to print several decks. If anyone has a better way of doing it, please let me know. I am no developer, but is it not a possibility to export decks in sun and moon to pdf directly?
not really. I opened a document editor and manually did it. I can send you the file if you want to replace the images- the dimensions are MTG accurate
I believe there are full pdfs for each set. I used the snipping tool to copy the cards I wanted into a Word document for printing. You have to be careful with sizing though or the pictures end up small
What i do is select all images, right click and click print. Select microsoft print to pdf, select Wallet (9), and make sure fit picture to frame is unchecked
What my friend did for gencon
So what I did to set it up is make a folder with the images I wanted, and sent it over to be printed
And made 1 of each copy I needed for the deck
emphasis this, as i've done this even in 2009 to "deck test tournament winning decks"
its SLIGHTLY, EVER SO, SLIGHTLY smaller than if you were to take the time to CROP EACH CARD TO ITS CARD DIMENSIONS (which, more power to you if you wanna do that);
I felt this is simply the fastest/"closest" way to do it, without wasting time or money
Hello guys, thanks for the suggestions to get the images for the decks
but I'm too lazy for that, so I created a powershell script to get the images from a deck
you would only need to change the paths at the begining of the file, this takes a sun and moon file called Deck.txt
and one more important thing, you need to point your powershell session, directly on the path of the sun and moon installation (D:\Program Files\Sun and MoonOnyx in my case)
this will get almost all images, in my case, I have troubles with some, for some reason, the file doesnt exist in my images, but the sun and moon is able to locate them somewhere else which is pretty weird
but overall, I am only missing 3 images from the deck, I guess I dont bother looking for only 3 images
UPDATE FOR script I have made some upgrades on the script. the first one was copying each image from every different edition. on this version I have changed so it only copies the last existent version,
I'm still having troubles with names with ' in the name, those are the only ones not being copied
can you repost in "pimp my game" channel so we can pin it?
done
I have added some notes in the script to help people run it, hope it helps anyone trying to print their onyx and SHE decks
