Kharmic in Onyx: is it only on your turn?
Sun and Moon #rules-questions
Messages from the Sun and Moon #rules-questions Discord channel, copied for Oracle of the Void. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings and the rulebooks may differ.
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The Phx Kharmic Cycle is Open for business your turn and every turn. 😉
What happens if I pay 0G to create a Geisha Assassin? Obviously it immediately dies, but does the duel itself still happen, or is it 'cancelled' because the Personality on my side doesn't exist long enough?
Mostly asking in the context of do I need to blow 2G for a 1Chi Geisha Assassin in order to Poisoned Weapon or if I can do it for free.
You definitely need to spend 2g if you want the duel to happen in the first place
😦
how many times can you activate conqueror on a given unit/personality?
In 20F/Onyx? Theres no limit. Conqueror units just dont bow during resolution.
Clarification- Consumed by Darkness.
Does the personality gain shadowlands during recruiting or after it is in play? Looking at the interaction with Honored Sensei
Answers on: Consumed by Darkness, Honored Sensei
Ah, clever. Yes, you could pay for them with 3G from Honored Sensei. Effects happen in the order written, so first the Consumed granted ability Recruits,and then it gives Shadowlands. Simultaneous effects will be clearly explicitly so, not just linked by "and".
@Brook Cunningham Can you Feign Death a Wedge? I doubt it, but just wondering.
Answers on: Feign Death, Wedge
Might depend on the arc/ruleset era, but for the modern wording, no, because Wedge would resolve, but not immediately destroy, so Feign Death has no death to prevent, yet.
Yeah that was my thinking, but the action resolves and it WILL destroy him, so I wasn't sure if this sorta interaction worked by rules or not
Saaam is right. The Reaction version of Feign could resurrect someone who Wedge destroyed in all previous arcs by reacting at the time of destruction, but the Interrupt version specifically looks for the destruction to have occurred during the action's resolution and won't save anyone who is destroyed by delayed destruction later on.
Q: Samurai. What happens to a created card (personality) that gets destroyed?
I can double check the Rulebook, but pretty sure same as always, they can't exist out of play so just "poof".
Yep, top of page 45, "When a created card leaves play, remove it from the game."
Thanks for confirming!
would shinjo riding stables give +1f to the followers too?
Answers on: Shinjo Riding Stables
[attachment: Onyx042.png]
No.
Talks about explicitly Personalities being targetted by the moving action.
Though that's pretty awkward and bad wording.
Or at least confusing.
i get that, the last sentence is what makes me question it
It should explicitly say "[...], give each Personality that it moved +1F.".
@saaam and a player: Well, it seems pretty logical that the "each" pronoun refers back to the "Personalities" noun, not "units", which is itself in the sentence not so much a noun as it is part of an adjective phrase "in Cavalry units" describing the Personality noun. And as saaam said, "each it moved" as a phrase also refers back to "moved any of your Personalities" as verb/(pro)noun pairings. Admittedly, though, the word "Personality" inserted after "each" could've added clarity?
"each Personality it moved" would cause its own confusion: what if the action moved your Personality in a Cavalry unit, but also an enemy Personality?
Ah, very true. It would be bad to add "clarity" by breaking off "Personalities" from its modifiers "your" and "in Cavalry units"; so, rather than repeat the whole phrase again, "each" logically stands for all of that, just as it's written.
in diamond can you use this with shadowlands?
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Yes.
It does not reduce your FH below -19, etc., etc.
wanted to make sure of this one. ...and others alike
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If I do that as a defender (enemy turn), then Shugenja loses Destined at the end of my enemy turn?
Correct.
Does Honored Sensei work for it's ability for Yobanjin Raids?
Answers on: Honored Sensei, Yobanjin Raids
I believe, since the action is only creating the Personality and not Recruiting it, that the Holding is only paying "for" the action, not paying "for" the card itself, thus you don't get the +1GP nor the Honor. Citation: CR, page 34, third paragraph, "Gold paid for a Recruit or Equip action, or for an action with a Recruit or Equip effect, is considered to pay both the cost of the action and the cost of the card Recruited or Equipped."
Ah so because it doesn't recruit the personality it doesn't work, despite honored sensei not explicitly saying recruit.
Answers on: Honored Sensei
Right. Although it could be clearer, I interpret that paragraph as saying that the definition of "paying for" (per HS's wording) a card you're putting into play is tied to its own cost and comparison through Recruiting and Equipping.
This was certainly a lot more cut-and-dried pre-Ivory, when paying for cards was just a thing you did because they had a Gold Cost, not tied to the Recruit/Equip action's own cost.
Thanks.
If a bowed shugenja using Eclipse's ability is targeted by Suitengu's Surge will Eclipse's effect end when the shugenja leaves play?
Reaction: After an action targets a unit you control, bow this Shugenja and target the unit: Remove it from the game, preserving bowed status and all attachments and tokens on its cards. Its owner returns it to the game in that state after the next turn begins, in his home under his control, without considering it to be entering play.
Eclipse - Limited: Bow this Shugenja and target a non-Stronghold card: While this Shugenja remains bowed, you may negate his straigtening and actions on the target may not be used. 2
I'm not sure if there's a contemporary contrary ruling, but by my reckoning, I would say the effects remain. Surge specifically preserves the bowed status while "gone", which the game state would "know" is "remaining" and therefore not end Eclipse's effect.
If a personality lost a 'clash of blades' then dies, are their abilities still removed while they are in the discard? What if they come back into play, are their abilities still gone?
Yes and yes. Cards retain memory of effects upon them unless they go both face-down AND out of play.
Card memory wasn't really brought up much until chi death was a more attainable thing in diamond
I've been avoiding the question in my games and testing but I need to ask-
Is 0 > nil or are they equal?
0>nil in battle res, but im specifically asking for during other points.
Example, kanpeki dynasty- if you have 1 dude with 0f does that beat your opponent with no personalties?
Normally it doesn't apply or work. E.g.: Crushing Attack can't be played because it checks for Force that exists, then the numerical check. Nil/Null doesn't exist, so you can't play it.
As in, you can't Crushing Attack against no defenders. But you can against a 0F defender.
For context my example says to lobby you have to have the highest force on a single personality, so if nil doesn't exist you would have more at 0, yeah?
Now, it's not a question if you have a 1f dude, you obviously take it even though there is no one on your opponents side because 1 > nil
@saaam Crushing Attack is not an example of the current Rules. Note that I had to give it a specific reword in the Oracle to allow it to behave mechanically as it was contemporarily Ruled to work, because that ruling was no longer compatible with more-modern, comprehensive Rules.
0 and nothing are the same except for Battle Resolution; that's the only exception.
So in my example the lobby action would fail
Correct.
That's what I thought but had to check. Thank you 🙂
Hunh. Learned something new.
Quick question... if this holding is bowed, its reaction still triggers?
[attachment: Sin_titulo.jpg]
No.
Reactions are actions, and as such, they are voluntary and their card must be unbowed to use them. Triggered traits are what happen involuntarily, and regardless of bowed status.
Thanks a lot. I really needed that clarification!!
And being "bowed" at 0 is also equal to being "unbowed" at 0 too, because the rules count army force,?
I'm not sure exactly what you're asking? :/ Also, are we talking Ivory and later, or before? Because it's slightly different pre and post Ivory.
Post ivory=
My army has an unbowed 0 force guy, vs a bowed 4f guy
The resolution is a tie
Yep. Note: Pre-Ivory, you would have equal "army force" throughout the battle in that state. Post-Ivory, the other guy's bowed status only matters in resolution tallying.
just as a reminder: Honor Interrupts cannot be used on trait honor gains like Beiko Sensei, Rhetorician or Temple Fortress, right? Because you have to play an Interrupt on an Action?
Correct
How about getting one more honor for proclaiming and after Peaceful Retreat is destroyed?
And after bowing Poorly Placed
Proclaiming is a modification to the Recruit action giving it an honor gain, therefore it can be Honor Interrupted
The honor gain on Peaceful Retreat is a Trait-based honor gain, therefore cannot be Honor Interrupted (same as Beiko Sensei or Temple Fortress)
Poorly Placed Garden bows as an action to gain honor, therefore can be Honor Interrupted
ok, I'll remember for the future all those cases
and don't forget that you cannot use Interrupts on other Interrupts or Response based honor gains
Wait, why can't you interrupt an interrupt? And interrupt is still an action
Rules. Interrupts and Responses cannot be Interrupted or Responded to.
No "2-deep" nesting of actions.
I believe you I just couldn't find that in a cursory glance of the rules. Can't search more in depth on my phone, ill look again when I get home
Also I'm having a hard time figuring out when it would ever be relevant- the closest I can figure is Dynasty- proclaim Interrupt- Honor Interrupt- cancel the proclaim
But technically the honor interrupt in that example resolves and the second interrupt is on the proclaim- still only "1 deep"
Some Interrupts or Responses generate effects that could be modified if those actions themselves could be further Interrupted, like Honor gains or Ranged Attacks, but not allowing it just keeps things simple and from going too "Inception"-y.
[attachment: image.png]
it does also prevent some of the weird stuff you see in for example MtG with the "stack", as in, the order in which effects fire off, which when you're pulling off big combos can get complicated
I've heard that in MtG there are responses to responses. Then there are responses to responses to responses. It can get complex.
They call it the FILO stack. First In Last Out, so the cards resolve in reverse order of played
fall on your knees, fall on your knees, fall on your knees, fall on your knees...
feign death at the end
"Damage on the Stack..." 😄
Rules interaction- Kisadas Funeral and Bukita Sensei
Does the active player get to choose which effect happens first, or since Bukita says "before gaining honor" does that happen before other honor reductions?
Answers on: Bukita Sensei
Yeah, this is an interesting conundrum. EDIT: May need to think on it a bit more.
The first option is rough but playable. The second turns off an entire deck archetype
Ah well, that answers that lol.
reminder question: technically speaking, because Unaligned is not a Clan Alignment, Unaligned characters do not share a Clan Alignment? For instance, regarding "Stand United"
[attachment: TBS157.jpg]
In Legacy and in Modern this card gives force bonuses to Unaligned guys
[attachment: printing_8990_1_details.png]
I'll take that as a "Yes" for now
i dunno how you would make an argument that unaligned DO share a clan alignment.
same way "colorless" is a thing in MtG (although there, too, it is not a color or color identity, so it would be like Unaligned not sharing a clan alignment)
It's also because there are cards requiring X different Clan alignments, and you can't choose X Unaligneds for that
"X different" =/= "not shared"; I feel like there's a specific section in the CR addressing this, but I don't have it handy Anyway, Kempy's example of how "old" United worked applies to "new" United also, because they're worded effectively the same.
asking because I'm revisiting my Hikahime Sensei decks, which runs 16 unaligned personalities
so, in CR page 15, on the definition of "Different and same keywords", this is the example given
[attachment: image.png]
therefore, any "share Clan Alignment" action will work on unaligned personalities, and any "different Clan Alignment" won't
With the card defeated, if the target isn't dishonorable, can they just declare an attack sequence and assign nobody?
yes
If something says "target 3 personalities" and not "target 3 different personalities" can you choose the same target 3 times?
No.
That's just poor wording. If it meant the same one, it would say "Target up to 3 different Personalities", etc.
if they don't have 3 personalities can you target fewer than?
That's where "up to" comes in.
Ok thank you
So if it says "target X whatever", then it has to be that, or you can't play it, due to the Good Faith Rule.
thank you.
Clarification on Elemental Arrow's last paragraph. Is the additional range attack with the +3 bonus or not?
"After that action resolves, you may make a Ranged Attack with strength equal to the one this action was chosen to modify."
Could've Oracled it better, fair. It's the final, modified Strength of the first RA.
So, it's not only with the +3, but any other modifications to str the first RA has.
Let's say I have two copies of "City of Night" in play, then in my battle i first use "Call the Inferno", then I use one of my "City of Night" to straighten that spell and later I use "Call the Inferno" a second time... now, could I use my second copy of "City of Night" to straighten "Call the Inferno" again so I would be able to use that spell for a third time in the same battle?
[attachment: Sin_titulo.jpg] [attachment: Sin_titulo_2.jpg]
Answers on: City of Night, Call the Inferno
No. City explicitly only gives a "second" use.
Thanks, I believed that was the case but wanted confirmation.
For Lotus, when you bring a personality in play with Ancient Battlefield, is that personality permanently in play under your control even after the battle? I hope so.
Pretty positive they are.
Ok thanks.
It also reads Delayed terrain. Do you do that just before resolution?
I tried looking in the 20f comprehensive rules, as well as the onyx rulebook.
When an action creates a token personality or follower or whatnot, are they considered to be a "dynasty" card or a "fate" card... or are they not considered either since they werent in the decks?
Neither, they don't create a card.
They create an object that's a Personality, Follower, etc. IIRC, anyway.
@saaam No, it IS a card. I can't recall if it's Dynasty, Fate, or neither. I'm leaning toward neither; will have a look.
I couldnt find any exact answers in the rules I had
Ooh. Okay, cool!
So when a card says to create something that's not a token, it should default to appending "card" after it?
yeah sorry its not a token, tokens are the counters that go on stuff like poison etc
thats defined in the rules
Ok, so... the Created cards section of the CR does not say they are not Dynasty or Fate cards. Likewise, Dynasty and Fate cards in the CR do not appear to be solely or primarily defined by their backs, but rather as being collective types of more specific sub-types of cards. The CR says, "Dynasty cards:" then lists all the types and "Fate cards:" then lists all those types; conversely, as one example, the definition of "Personality" in the CR Glossary is literally "A Dynasty card type." Therefore, I would say that a created card of a certain type of either Dynasty or Fate card would also be Dynasty or Fate itself. Apologies if this might contradict an older ruling on the matter? I don't have access to Kempy's log of AEG Forum rulings.
This fits with the more recent discussion of created Pearl Strategies counting as Fate cards (mainly for checking Ring of Void)
Given that it isn't in a deck, I have a hard time accepting that it is classified that way, but we will just go with it since thats what is being said lol.
It came up due to ring of void, I could have played it but had a dinky token follower that offset my numbers.
the created card is of all apriopiate card types
so if It is follower/weapon it is Fate and if it is Personality is is Dynasty
Thats what Macbeth said.
oh i bet Brooks already stated that
yeah I am slow on answering ;D
Lol