Sun and Moon #rules-questions

Same as 20F. Only where they're at.

Yeah, I think Kempy said that the Tournament format changed to 40/40 after Time of the Void, even though it was listed as 30/30 in the Jade+ Rulebooks. He even posted a thing from the Imperial Herald where it was voted on. I myself didn't get serious in the Tournament scene or the game itself until at/after TotV myself, and I pretty much never built a 30/30 deck.

Right. Gold Edition standardized 40/40 in the Rulebook itself, though anyone who had been playing at even local level tournaments from Jade onwards was already accustomed to building at that size. Likewise, the rule that Events could only resolve once per game per title was an "optional" Rule in Clan War through end of Jade Rulebooks, but all official tournaments, even pre 1997, used that Rule. And it too was codified as official in the GE Rulebook.

Imperial Command won't work on Hantei the 39th. He's not destroyed, so there's no trigger.

Heh. Not sure anyone ever Ruled on Chi Death because of the not-really-legal nature of the KYD cards.

I'm pretty sure continuous destruction from Chi Death will overcome any death-substitution effects, but I haven't the wherewithall to look that up in past Rulings or the current CR at the moment to verify. 😛

Legacy would use whatever the 20F CR says about Chi Death.

Yep. All correct.

1. No. The movement home just fails because he's already there, but the destruction doesn't reassert.

2. No. Only destruction, which is not the same thing as RFTG/banishing.

No. Negation is not the same thing as substitution. His trait substitutes bowing and moving home for destruction.

Beam Cannon Satsu

That's not entirely correct.

Also, I'm trying to look up Beiko myself. 😛

Ah, there she is, TBS.

20F printing

So, you can't produce 9 Gold for Beiko and have any of the Gold go to any other cost whatsoever. The +1GP only happens when the Holding pays for Beiko and only Beiko, like other such Holdings, "Bamboo Irrigation" and "Colonial Temple". So, you could make 9 Gold for her pointlessly which could go to overpaying for her and no other payments, or you could use 1 Honored Sensei to pay her full 3, and put your other Honored Sensei to other uses for their 2G each.

the real question would be, is the Interrupt a separate Recruit action for which Honored Sensei can be used at +1 Gold? @Brook Cunningham

It is a separate action, not part of "paying for" Beiko.

right, but is it a Recruit action for which you are "paying for" the bear?

Yes, but our Bear pal is neither Naga nor Human.

ah, now that is fair

But now you know you have either 4G from the extra 2 Holdings or nothing. 🙂

so the Honored Sensei doesn't produce 1G "floating" for the conditional, it either produces 2G unconditional, or 3G as a conditional block

you need to use the 3G for the specified condition or lose it

Ah, true. So you either have 4G extra (an 1 Honor, for using 1 of the Holdings for her), or no extra Gold and 3 total honor.

She's from TBS, before Responses were invented in Onyx.

Nope, never printed.

Though it was in a state ready to go to print, and the PDF was leaked around 2018 or so.

No. She unfortunately just works exactly like similar janky Interrupts of her time. There are Rules for it in the 20F CR, because they were all like that throughout Ivory.

the problem with Invest cost creation of Kitsune Kritters is that it permanently increased the cost of an otherwise cheap shugenja (making them ironically more resilient) while leaving a 0GC fragile creature who would die to, say, a stray Standing Fast

TCS basic Beiko had this issue leading into the 20F environment

you paid 10G for a 0/1 Shugenja, shame that bear died so hard

Yes, they do. I found a contemporary Ruling that "Mantis Clan" does not count twice because it's equivalent to YA, so by extrapolation, YA (and other such "Clans" without "Clan" in their keyword) do count.

Also, sorry, you said "cards like" Yoritomo's Armor. You weren't just specifically asking about the armor. In that case, they DEFINITELY do. The armor was questionable, but "Clan" is the only term existent in Jade. "Faction" didn't come about until later.

Also-also, Oracle of the Void is your friend. 😉

The proper amount of Shugenja for the effect is required targeting. So, no, you can't even announce a Black Scroll action with less than that amount.

Right, just you. Additionally, it's just referring to your normal, end of the turn draw.

Yeah. Card text references to "you" always refer to the card's controller.

Yep.

Nothing can go negative but FH. Everything else has a minimum of 0.

I think there are actually some weird Rules about HR, but I don't have the CR handy right now. Just using my brain box at present.

There are special rules for Resilient, that it will not affect the same card more than once per game, even if that card loses and regains the keyword.

Yes. As of Ivory, keywords don't bleed down to the card's abilities.

Debatable? The problem with the Honor keyword Interrupt may have been discovered and corrected sooner than Onyx had the game not been sold.

I'm saying the correction may have potentially even come prior to the release of TBS.

No. The order of the gain versus the Sincerity doesn't matter. You don't/can't Interrupt then, only before the Recruit's effects resolve, which is well before either. So, in answer to your initial question, the Honor card is definitely in your discard by then and can be picked up, and the rest is irrelevant.

Yes. That reminds me, I need to fix the Oracle wording on Ninja Stronghold. Thanks for the reminder. 🙂

Not likely in the near future? I believe it's on the Oracle owner's to-do list, but not as near the top as other things he hasn't gotten to yet.

I mean, it pretty much already has those.

The updates to Ivory-Rules should preserve the original functionality of the card, in most cases.

There are a few exceptions where I've let modernized Rules bend the card to them rather than the other way around, but I've tried more recently to minimize that.

Sure, but that's not functionally different from how they work in-arc.

I'm not following what you're saying here?

Ok, yeah, I'm still not following? Are you saying that the "Ivory wording" of old Events somehow makes them work differently? Insofar as revealing info? Or are you just talking generally, Ivory cards/Rules versus old?

Oh, because you don't reveal them from left to right but all at once under Ivory Rules.

Yeah, I rather wish they hadn't gotten rid of the Events phase, but it is what it is. If you're playing arc-specific, you could interpret the triggered trait, "After you reveal cards in your Provinces at the start of your turn" on the new wording to trigger after every individual reveal. 😉 It doesn't say "all cards". So, flip-trigger, flip-trigger, perfect! 🙂

Yeah, once-per-game-per title Events was a lot more flavorful too, but also crazy unbalanced. 😛

I'm surprised Kempy didn't ban Shrine of Spirits from his Jade tournament, but I guess no one is playing it? Or is Bladedwind? Their clan is "Clan" on the ranking post. 😛

Nope.

There is only a specific time any Interrupt can be played, and it is before an action's effects resolve. Think of it as the "Engage"-type step of Battle. You pick a Battle (announce an action), and right before the Combat Segment (effects resolve), there is a specific window for Engage actions (likewise for Interrupts). Despite being their ostensible "replacement", they don't really work like Reactions at all.

Discarding a card for a Rulebook player ability is not "playing" the card, so no, the Sensei does not prevent that.

From the CR, definition of "Play": As a verb, “play” can refer to: putting into play a card type that normally enters play; using a Strategy card by putting it into the resolution area; bringing a Ring into play; or using an ability on a Ring that is out of play.

No, it doesn't work. Rain of Death does require printed, and the Sensei does not fit that requirement.

No, it would be equal to the existent modifier. Even though that isn't "direct" Force, it is still Force; like if you have a Ranged 2 Attack that can target Items, it couldn't destroy a +3F Item.

Took me a few additional moments, but it's on Page 11 of the CR, under Force and Chi Modifiers:

"If something in the game needs to check an Item’s Force or Chi separately from its Personality’s stats, use the value of its modifier (minimum zero)."

Yep.

I'd agree it's simultaneous, however there's no active-player choice even involved. That's for when different things are triggered at the same time, but the triggers can't happen on top of each other, so the active player has to decide an order. So, if there were multiple different triggers caused by players gaining Provinces, active player would decide the order those triggers resolve, but it wouldn't change the fact all the Provinces were gained at the same time. So, for the purposes of destroying the Mantis Charter, there would never be a time when one player has more Provinces than the other because of it; they would all be gained at the same time.

Yeah, saam is right. The Sensei gives the Clan Alignment to Personalities both in and out of play, so they would already have your Alignment at the point when bringing them into play checks that restriction.

Technically should, yes. Gold costs of Strategy actions were costs "of the card" in Jade, and even Emperor, I believe. Sorry that isn't more explicitly clear in the Oracle.

Honored Guest allows Proclaiming for the specific circumstance of someone who doesn't have your Clan Alignment. That doesn't overcome Motoi's trait.

Sorry if I'm not explaining it properly, but the bottom line is that Honored Guest doesn't overcome his trait. It's like, if you have a Battle action (from before "Absent" was a thing) that says, "You can take this action even if you don't control any units at the battlefield", it doesn't overcome anything but the specific problem it refers to, the lack of Presence. If you also didn't have legal targets, you still couldn't take it.

Sneak changes who gets the first action, then Wake changes it to something else.

More or less. "Who takes the first action this battle" is an Instantaneous effect. It happens, then it stays that way until another effect changes it, like bowing a card.

It took me a bit, but I also found the specific part of the CR that supports the ruling, too (top of page 43):

"PERMISSIONS #

Some text permits things to happen in violation of the rules, using terms such as “can” or “may.” Such permissions override specific restrictions and prevention effects in the rules; for example, “He may assign even if bowed.” A permission does not break rules that it doesn’t specifically refer to. Example: “Your target Infantry Personality may assign in Cavalry Maneuvers” does not allow a bowed unit to assign. [lol, outdated example, much, CR? It's cute we have that in common.😛 ] Likewise, a permission does not overcome restrictions or negations from card sources, unless overcoming card effects is specifically mentioned. Example: If a card says its Ranged Attack “can target Personalities with attached Followers,” this does not overcome another effect that says “This Personality cannot be targeted by Ranged Attacks.”"

As Marcus said, yes; the instant effect of Sneak has resolved, giving the Sneak player the first action. MM negates the effect of Wake that would give it to someone else, so it stays where it was from the Sneak. To use another instant effect as a hypothetical example: bowing a card. If Sneak's effect was instead, "Bow target guy", and Wake's was "Straighten target guy", and Wake was negated, the guy would still be bowed, if you follow me?

What was this in answer to? It doesn't seem to relate to the posts directly above. :/

Ah, fair. To expand on that, all ongoing effects are end of turn unless specified. Control change is actually not ongoing but instant. So it's not technically permanent (which is shorthand for an ongoing effect with a duration until end of game), but rather it happens instantly, then stays how it is until another effect changes it, like other instant effects such as bowing or destruction.

Nope.

Yes.

It's a Fear 3 effect against each Follower and the Personality separately.

it doesn't override the normal Fear rules, though, so it can't bow a Personality with attached Followers, correct @Brook Cunningham?

No, it can. It circumvents the usual Fear targeting with its own.

ah, the rule limits the targeting, not what it can affect, and the card explicitly allows the targeting... got it

You can't combine it with any Fear that can't target a Personality with attached Followers unless the target doesn't have any.

Yeah, it's an unfortunate interpretive problem with strength-altering effects. Rarely are such things written once, but create multiple instances of the effect within the action, like in this case. I think the logical application is that they alter the number, then all effects based on that number are likewise altered, despite (and, in a way, because of) the fact all strength altering effects are unfortunately written assumptively supposing that the action is only creating one effect.

Although, my hope and intent is for an Onyx Comprehensive Rules to be produced prior to GenCon, and one of the top priorities would be clarifying some identified issues with Fear/Ranged/Melee Attack Rules, so I may revisit/reverse this notion in the near future.

Correct.

Well, if that Spider player happens to be using Mishime Sensei, then they can ignore the HR. 🙂

You definitely cannot use the Crane SH's Response; this isn't a Favor cost. The rest seems to track; a Crane with Box Side 2 up using "Word" with Discipline would cause it to have "Repeatable" because it would give it "Favor". Weird that it gives itself "double Political" in that case too. 😛 Small oversight, I suppose.

Yes is the answer to your question, but your assumption on the timing is wrong. You take the Reaction when it says, immediately before her destruction. So, if you used her to attack and she's now bowed at the start of your Dynasty phase when the destruction is occurring, you can't save her.

Sorry, I answered without seeing @saaam already had, but saaam is correct; @kempy_nezumi 's contrary recollection isn't.

He and his Nagamaki were literally designed so that they could do that combo together. 😛 But anyway, the timing is: Announce and Bow Tetsuo E2 for his ability, Interrupt it with the Nagamaki's MA ability to combine them, immediately after the Nagamaki bows for the cost of its ability, its trait staightens it, then Tetsuo's ability resolves, first the MA, then the option to bow his (now straightened polearm) to straighten him.

Engage and Combat are within the same phase, Attack Phase. You keep it.