It would be wildly weird if you could get an honor from proclaiming when You failed to recruit personality.
Sun and Moon #rules-questions
Messages from the Sun and Moon #rules-questions Discord channel, copied for Oracle of the Void. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings and the rulebooks may differ.
brought up because it doesn't happen that way in CE, the rulebook of which state:
If you aren’t choosing to pay the 2 less Gold, you may choose to gain Honor equal to your aligned Personality’s Personal Honor just before you bring him into play, once per Dynasty Phase.
So it's something I'll need to keep in mind while switching between my OBH and CE decks during the tournaments this month
Still i think {Honored Hostage] should fail If You target Loyal personality! // tho it doesent matter in this instance but i wanted to sound at last a lil bit as Kato /
Answers on: Honored Hostage
The change of control fails, but the Honor gain doesn't. That was a combo back in the day.
it's SICK
thats why i say it Should be on the card that you cannot target personalities that You cannot exhange.
my personal feel ofc
If Onyx Lives team makes another base set, maybe you can convince them to "MRP"-nerf it? 😉
hahahahahaha ;D
mayb mayb, who knows ;p btw who designed this card, it wasn't foreseen? I just feel that gaining sometimes really lot for just one card is kind of unfair.
Dunno. Before my time; I joined Rules Team mid Samurai arc.
Lotus Arc was crazy unbalanced.
"is my insane broken combo better than yours and who gets to it first"
and that's the time when things became more clear and better! / truly i do not know if this statement is true I just sleept near Shiro Kitsuki in my way back to High House of Light and felt a bit courteous, tho that MAY be true in the end 😉 /
Where can I find the most updated rules for how to play ivory edition, either base set or 20 festivals? I want to get back into playing and want to start with all my old cards before diving into onyx.
Use the Dropbox link in the Welcome channel, Ivory - Twenty Festivals folder.
Thanks!
does Hakuseki Sensei remove the traits on Embassy of the Crane?
Answers on: Hakuseki Sensei, Embassy of the Crane
Abilities =/= traits. Abilities are only things that start with a boldface action designator, such as Open, Battle, Response, etc.
I thought as much, just wanted to make sure
[The Second City] region gives your personalities +1F if they're courtiers or magistrates. Does it stack to a +2F if a character is both (for example, Doji Shikatsu)?
No
Good to know
as I recall there are some traits that are removed by senseis or some trait on stronghold have statements that senseis are removing thous traits I think this broken one /meaning Embassy ofc/ is not having such a text purely because in celestial there wasn't sensei cards around 😛 Cranes.... lucky bastards😅
After playing against and as the [Legacy/Modern-Embassy+Hakuseki sensei], other clans have just as much crazy-wacky combos 🙂
yeah but when I try to play dueling Dragon and I see Embassy I think "Shit here we go again..."
on a offtopick we may move to Legacy ?
There are good match-ups and bad match-ups. I went with embassy honor dueling for the legacy tournament. In my first match, I got bodied by bad card draw anyway
My opponent got a clan champion as their first personality, which is often an "oh shit" moment for the opponent, but then that champ died very quickly. I could sense the heartbreak. Sorry for being vague, I don't want to give away what I or my opponent was playing.
So i just want to check- if you manage to give your clan alignment to a Loyal personality, you can then recruit them, yes?
Yes
https://tenor.com/view/yes-hell-evil-smile-evil-grin-close-up-gif-16483956
Yep, but there aren't a bunch of ways to do that to someone out of play.
only if you look with your eyes
Also, upon some insistence back in the day, I updated older Personalities in the Oracle with "Will only join X Clan" trait to "Loyal", even though mechanically, those aren't quite functionally identical. I may revisit that one day... or not? shrug
Just run a sensei.
That was the plan. I just wanted to make sure that if I gave the Crane Clan Champion the Phoenix Clan alignment I could recruit him
Because, ya know, birds of a feather and all that
I have a Burning QUestion
[attachment: image.png]
how does Wataru Sensei Works?
[attachment: image.png]
one side is saying that both personalities are now 11f, but that seems wrong to effectively say "bow to get +10f"
whereas it would make sense to swap unmodified (but with bonuses) force (keeping weapons from "counting twice")
Tamori Josuke is basic 2F +3F (cause oppoosed and have 2 spells and Okui) +2F from Tremnor +3F from Flawless Naginata
so he is currently 10F
both are now 11F
Answers on: Wataru Sensei
it works like this: 2 personalities, one has XF the other has YF, and X >= Y. Wataru Sensei lets you choose to have both personalities at eitehr XF or at YF, and if one is a Samurai and the other is a shugenja, you can choose between X+1F or Y+1F
since the sensei does not specify any conditions to the Force, assume it's current Force (meaning including bonuses such as attachments or from Strategy cards)
Very succinct and correct.
if it were comparing base force, it would say so
so, yeah, make a giant tower shugenja with a small samurai yojimbo, and bam, one battle/engage gives you 2 towers
thanks :bow:
so it was just as I thought 🙂
It just struck me as odd that once the force was swapped you got to factor the weapons in again
That's all
That's not how it works.
well, no. the above XF and YF are including item bonuses
I.e. if a dude with a +2 sword had a total of 5f (after bonuses) and swapped with a guy with 3f, you would have 2 6f dudes
yes, so far so good
Yes, Marcus's "X" and "Y" were totals, not printed.
That was nimuros question. Sorry it wasn't explained further. He was swapping with a 2f dude and then recounting static bonuses such as weapons
I couldn't quite tell what was going on from the screenshot, but Marcus's explanation was spot-on. Just with X and Y being the totals after all bonuses and modifiers.
So the question remains- does the item bonus count twice (one per dude post swap) or is the item bonus locked into the force being swapped? I.e. does it count twice or once
It's not a swap, maybe is the mistake? It's a one-copies-the-other.
So it counts twice
well, ish
No.
I.e. the item reapplied after force is set
Nope
no if small dude got a weapon it would be completely ignored
I can't read lol you already are here
Not completely. Maybe another example with real numbers would help?
if one has a weapon and another doesn't, then it counts "twice" in the sense that it's as though both had that +F bonus
there was real numbers
smaller numbers maybe
So let's do this-
I couldn't follow the screenshot, sorry. I was just talking about Marcus's example, which was good, but had no real numbers.
there
So, assume 2 guys, one has 2F+2F from a weapon =4F, the other has 2F
Samurai A - 3f printed with a +2 sword Shugenja B 2f no attachments
What is the totals?
6F
Can I give it a go?
Explain it all out?
go ahead
(need to walk my dogs anyway now quickly)
"Samurai A = 3F printed with a +2F sword Shugenja B = 2F" So, you target both of those guys with the Sensei. First effect is, "Set the Force of one to equal the other." So, you want them both to be big, so you choose to set the little guy's Force to equal the big guy's. The Sensei's effect gives Shug B a +3F bonus so that he's now equal to Sam A, both 5F now. Then, since one of each is a Sam and Shug, the Sensei's second effect is to give them both +1F, so now they are both 6F. The end. Cool?
yeah!
...so this has taught me that I need to RTFC because I could have sworn the in game version said set each to each others.
R.i.p.
Aha! The root of the problem was indeed, "not a swap". 😛 No worries, it happens. 🙂
there is Wataru Sensei
Yeah I just scrolled up to read it
Now it makes a lot more sense. Still strong though, that dragon can tap one card ti get +10f
Break their Rhythm! ;D
if It would be a Phoenix sensei it would be way more broken, we are just small jimbos and nor really that threatening Shugs ;D
shoo shooo !!
but it was alvays suseptible and i bet that is one of the reasons Wataru Sensei deck hasn't got much of a wining record in recent Tourney
Is 'set' a bonus?
yes ofc
he have Force higher than his printed force then hence i think it is a bonus.. not sure tho just my personal feel
I put it right in the example. 😛 It is a bonus.
So you did, my pea brain didn't comprehend that.
This morning has taught me not to contemplate rules before caffeine lol
Never contemplate anything before caffeine.
How is possible she may pay a cost of bowing herself if she's still in Province?
[attachment: image.png]
It's in the CR.
yeah I seen this one too
Comprehensive Rules.
@kempy_nezumi Page 21, paragraph 2: "A card out of play cannot normally bow to pay costs. However, if an Interrupt action on a card is played to an action that brings it into play, the payment of the Interrupt’s bow cost may be delayed until after the card enters play."
Anyway, yeah, the CR covers it. We didn't change it to a Response, because it has to be an Interrupt for the "Renew" to trigger properly.
Is Bayushi Mei a real card? Recruits your 'Court"? Did they mean courtier?
Maybe there are cards with the keyword court
There are court holdings
There are 7 Holdings with Court keyword in Onyx Arc
Can you use "Fall On Your Knees" to cancel a rallying cry/spearhead?
Answers on: Fall on Your Knees, Rallying Cry
Nope.
does indomitable fortress of the crab give permanent +3gp or just until end of turn?
If its the onyx/ivory one its just for the turn
All side "b" of the strongholds have that ability
ahh i see sorry mb, im new to snm and onyx 😅
no worries
Can You use as a Defender A [Searching For An Answer] without presence and without personalities?
[attachment: image.png] [attachment: image.png]
Specifically in Emperor
Edit: Didn't read the card well enough. Answer might have been wrong?
Oh, crap.
asking because since Absent isn't a thing (yet) in Emperor, and I've seen it mentioned, certain actions that create presensce are as though they had the later absent
It brings a guy in there. Sorry, it's early and I'm not feeling well.
grab that morning coffee
Normally, it should work no problem but my issue is that it's on the condition that there's a personality in the top 4 cards
get well soon MacBeth-sama :Thankegg:
Honestly, I don't have the wherewithall to find and consult the Emperor CR or Rulebook right now, but like Kanzen just said, the fact that it's conditional and might not create Presence may be the sticking point.
just checked Oracle for MRP: it has absent on it
Haha! Past me, coming in clutch with the answer. 😄
Particularly ironic, given the card's title. Although, I hestitate to call it a "MRP", but in this day and age where digital cards are as "real" as actually printed ones (that's the "P"), I suppose the definition is a bit blurred.
might be the thing in CE (and I think also EE) where actions can be taken when there's no presence? I forget if ya'll changed it for EE after CE allowed "creating" presence by bringing personalities into play and not just movement
Those two things were the same in CE and EE.
Although, I probably shouldn't be saying anything with too much certainty right now, as we've discovered.
Yes, you may use Searching without any of your units at battlefield
in Emperor
hope you play them as EE printings 🙂 not nerfed MRP
[attachment: image.png]
also don't mind me in vc, i just wanna listen to people play the game, im I have no plans to play in emperor tournament. 😄
he's using FL version on my screen (is a consistent thing in S&M, depending on what version of the card you last looked at in the deckbuilder)
also on my screen
it is SnM bug
it's on your end, S&M bug
[attachment: image.png]
Thanks for the backup! When Marcus linked to the Oracle version, and I saw I had updated it to Ivory Tempating with "Absent", I trusted that my past self had done so correctly, but it's nice to see confirmation from the old Rules Forum.
I as a spectator seen that, cause I used onyx database aplication to spectate possibly
so thats probably the reason of most recent prints
Probably it's an issue with cache - i also got some bugs like wneh i skip between various edition decks. SnM remembers latest used image for some cards. Restarting SnM helps.
May i get quick verification Lobbing bonus in checks only when player with this bonus is Lobbying? It doesn't check when opposing player lobby?
lobbying bonus is applied whenever any player lobbies
meaning if, for example, you have 7FH, your opponent 6FH and +2 Lobby Bonus, you cannot lobby
okay thanks a lot!
so I am taking these holdings :>
What's exactly procedure if i search for Legacy and it is in one of my Provinces face-down? What happens if i want to "put it face up in one of your Provinces, discarding the card there" and i choose exactly same Province where Legacy holding is face-down now?
[attachment: image.png]
I think it is stated, in rulling on the card. You search deck and provinces, then you discard a card at a province that you choose. The only problem is that you may know the cards that should be facedown. You are not able to discard a legacy card for which You were searching, although you may discard another one in You run multiple legacy holdings.
Aah is see what You mean 😅🤣
Interesting conundrum. I'd assume that if the Legacy holding is in your Province, then placing it in the Province it's in would also mean discarding it. Therefore, you have to place it in another Province, discarding the card there, and refilling the Province the Legacy holding came from facedown. I'll illustrate with an example
Assume Radiant Bay is your last Legacy holding and is facedown in Province 1 (left-most). You use Legacy action to search your deck, and don't find it. Now, you look through your facedown provinces and find it. You cannot both discard and place the same card in Province 1, so you have to discard from provinces 2, 3, etc. to place RB. Now, provinces 1 is empty, and after reshuffling your deck from the search, you refill it facedown
BUT technically after finding holding in one of provinces do you refill it? AND you may discard that or you may discard another card ffim other province /one that you'd like to discard for example /. Or the one You do not know. What about this knowledge on your future facedown provinces. And If province is temporally empty do you have possibility to refill empty one with legacy holding
Alternatively, it could also be placed into a created "Legacy discovery" area first, then refill the provinces facedown (after shuffle if you searched your deck), and now you choose which province to replace with RB. Big difference here being when it's refilled
That's why I think it is crucial to have official full rulling sequence for such a scenario
Btw if You've seen last Onyx Tourney final. There were few.. would say free interpretations of legacy rule.
You can use legacy without the holding with “legacy” in play?
I'm not sure about the Onyx Rules, but it should be a Rulebook ability.
I have no idea why it needs the "you lose the game" clause, though.
If you find a Legacy Holding in a province, you can just put it into the province it was in.
At the point when it's been found, it's not in the province to be discarded - the province is momentarily empty.
You can. You just need it in your deck.
That's the reason for legacy holding. It's sth like past gifts and favors. Or how it was called.
Gifts and Favours wasn't in the Rulebook, though - the effect was purely on the card.
(Which is why you lost if you didn't find one - you'd searched your deck using an effect that you didn't have, which was clearly illegal)
I don't entirely understand why the Legacy ability for Onyx has been changed from the 20F one.
not entirely sure, but I'd guess to tackle the potential gold acceleration with a harsher cost (20F it only cost a Fate card, Onyx it costs a Fate card and a Dynasty card, hence why my explanations for how to do it didn't leave the province empty)
It's only 2-for-2.
not acceleration, gold draw
my mistake
Unless the rules have changed, if you find it in a province, you don't lose a dynasty card.
You don't refill until the procedure is finished.
So you're placing it in an empty province
"Put it face up in one of your Provinces, discarding the card there"
There's no card in that province.
The Legacy card is. Rules as written, just looking at that card, it's not removed from that province, it's simply found in there and stays facedown until you put it face up in a province (hence why my initial explanation said to replace a card in a different province instead)
No, it goes to a temporary "Found card" area, so it's not in the province temporarily.
And the province is temporarily empty.
Then you discard the card in the province (an effect that fails), and put the Legacy Holding from the Found card area into the province.
Because they expanded Legacy for other card types like Events.
Ah, ok. Yeah, that makes sense.
Kempy, can you find any precedent for what I'm saying in your archive of the Rules forum?
And is it a text archive, or just lots of images?
Its scattered dump of forum and its just mix of pages and images.
I just need all the time use search tool to dig through directories.
Anyway what exactly i should look for?
Hm.
might be looking in the wrong area, but I don't find any reference to a "Found card" area in the 20F CR or the Onyx rules datasheet. Now, just to be clear, I'm not saying you're wrong, and there might be a Rules forum ruling about it. If anything, I hope you're right because that means a Legacy holding in your province becomes a discard-Fate-cost reveal (and, looking at the 20F rules for searching and the text for Legacy in Onyx, you can peek at your facedown Provinces before searching your Dynasty deck)
(maybe it's even clarification we'll get here, but will have to wait for the Onyx CR for the fully explained procedure)
Well, cf Preparedness.
If you want to always discard a Dynasty card, the Legacy card needs to go on top of the deck.
that is indeed similar. Although I'm not fully convinced yet, I will agree with you that it can flip faceup in its own province
Also, Kitsu Miwa
You discard her from a province, which is left empty while you search.
Similarly, Jade Pearl Inn
yeah, I see the precedence now
You recruit the JPI, and the province is empty while you search.
and the discard in Onyx Legacy text is an effect, not a cost. Yeah, I'm convinced
there's still a smidge of doubt but that's more my innate stubbornness not wanting to admit that I'm wrong, so we can ignore that
I get that 🙂
I searched the Oracle for cards with text "search province"
Just confirming, but in Emperor - you can use the same courtier you are Proclaiming to use Destructive Priorities, correct?
Logic is -> Courtier enters play -> Proclaim reaction triggers -> bow new Courtier to trigger Destructive Priorities, negating the Proclaim honor gain
Relevant wordings: Proclaim: "Reaction: After you bring a Personality in your province with your Clan alignment into play without Clan discount, if it is your turn: Gain Honor equal to his base Personal Honor."
Destructive Priorities: "Political Reaction: Before you gain Honor during your turn, bow your target performing Courtier to negate the gain and choose a player who loses 2 Honor."
Answers on: Destructive Priorities
Ugh, Proclaim. So many different versions...
that's the EE version of proclaim for clarity, so thanks for that at least, does help. Given that the Proclaim happens after bringing the Personality into play, I would say that it is in play and can be bowed for costs and effects (L5R never needed a "summoning sickness" type mechanic as far as I know since the Dynasty phase was just before the End phase from the start)
[attachment: image.png]
Please note the quotation in my signature, there 🙂
(Also: thank you @kempy_nezumi )
Does ikikasji override attaching restriction traits like on Akuma lite?
[attachment: printing_12488_1_details.jpg] [attachment: printing_12581_1_details.jpg]
Yes
I'm not sure if the rules actually support that, and EP came out after the sale, so I don't think anyone actually asked us that question - but if they had, we would have made it fit as it's definitely the intent.
Thanks
would balance in nothingness stop okura is released?
[attachment: printing_672_2_details.png] [attachment: printing_5688_2_details.png]
Answers on: Balance in Nothingness, Okura is Released
No.
would it have to be played before?
The Interrupt step of the Action Sequence is before effects are resolved
Hm.
Or, more relevantly, when the action targets your Personality, he's unbowed.
So Balance in Nothingness does ... nothing.
Then your Personality gets bowed, and Okura is Released says "Ah-hah!" and destroys the Personality.
Also, note that Okura is Released doesn't target.
Both are Interrupts. You cant play Interrupt on Interrupt. Balance may stop Fear attack if it targets bowed guy.
Yes, but a Fear effect that would be stopped by Balance in Nothingness isn't going to trigger Okura is Released's effect.
so scenerio. oponent fears my guy my guy bows i play balance in nothingness. then what happens?
Answers on: Balance in Nothingness
No
It doent work this way. You announce Fear, you target.. You both plays interrupts. Fear resolves.
And you may play Balance if Fear targets bowed guy.
[attachment: image.png]
In Interrupt window.
Announce: Your opponent announces a Fear action.
Costs: Your opponent pays any costs, if any.
Interrupts: Beginning with the active player, you can both play Interrupts, such as Balance in Nothingness and Okura is Released.
You quoted wrong CR. Ivory instead 20F. In 20F theres part about targeting.
Hm.
Link?
[attachment: Screenshot_20231114-095447_Drive.jpg]
Its in Dropbox in Ivory Twenty Festivals folder.
That was change between Ivory and 20F
Ok.
on a tangent to okura is unleashed, might be my just woke up from a nap grogginess... but I'm legally not allowed use it when I'm using a fear on an already bowed personality (for whatever reason) right?
So...
Announce: Your opponent announces a Fear action. Costs: Your opponent pays any costs, if any. Targetting: Your opponent targets your Personality - assume here he's unbowed. Interrupts: Beginning with the active player, you can both play Interrupts. . Your opponent plays Okura is Released. . You play Balance in Nothingness, but it does nothing as the target is unbowed. Resolution: Your Personality is bowed by the Fear effect. . Okura is Released's delayed effect triggers, and destroys the Personality.
Hm
Or...
Sorry for opening the box...
Announce: Your opponent announces a Fear action. Costs: Your opponent pays any costs, if any. Targetting: Your opponent targets your Personality - assume here he's bowed, but I don't know why he'd target such a Personality. Interrupts: Beginning with the active player, you can both play Interrupts. . Your opponent doesn't bother playing Okura is Released as the action won't bow any cards . You play Balance in Nothingness, and as the target is bowed, the actions effects are negated. Resolution: Nothing happens.
I'd think the second option (Yoritomo Arin's question is only regarding Okura is Released so no other cards needed)
OiR destroys after a Fear bows. If the target is bowed before the Fear is used, then the Fear doesn't bow the target, and is not a legal action for OiR to interrupt on
Answers on: Okura is Released
thank you
:Thankegg:
It's perfectly legal to Interrupt with Okura is Released.
It's just that it's pointless.
Disregard since I missed that BiN specifies the target is bowed before targeting
Actually yeah, better worded there
BiN doesn't stop bowing.
BiN only works if the target is already bowed at the instant of targeting
Nevermind, I missed that part
I haven't had my morning coffee
There are cards that may still kill bowed cards or those pesky Elite guys. Nothing is just conditional cancel.
ahh so I can, in theory, still legally play okura despite targetting an already bowed personality with a fear effect...
but I would not destroy the card since the fear effect technically did not bow the target since it was already bowed and have essentially played OiS for nothing else than because I can.
thank you
I'm not sure you need the "technically" there 🙂
ah my bad, still uh recovering from grogginess
Those aren't "rules questions" 🙂
sorry
I suggest you ask the first in (link)
... and the latter in the channel for the arc you want to play.
i have phisical cards from 2 arcs, samurai and celestial, and i want to make starter decks again, to play normally
thanks, i will continue in general chat
What set did sincerity debut in, I cant seem to find it in the 20f rulebook.
In The Blackest Storm, the first unreleased set.
NM found it
How does Wasureta's ability work? As long as she is in your province you can remove a sincerity token to straighten somone?
or i guess when you recruit her you can just straighten two people.
This second one. Sincerity triggers after card enters play.
And also final one of 20F.
Originally, if a duel did not state a consequence for a loser, then the loser died. I dont' see anything about consequences for losing a duel in OBH or 20 FESTIVALS.
they are ussualy printed in a duel action
Duel consequences are all explicitly written on the card now.
There are a couple of cards that are now dueling for the sake of dueling. I ain''t got time for that. They're coming right out of my deck.
Which ones? I can't think of any off the top of my head.
shrine of courage
Answers on: Shrine of Courage
No, Shrine of Courage destroys.
[attachment: image.png]
It's from an era where the default destruction Rule was still active. You can see it has the text explicitly in the Oracle.
Oh yeah. There it is in Orale. Sorry. I'm sure we've all hallucinated text.
does this card count as unique because its "experienced" or i can still bring 3 of these?
[attachment: image.png]
not all experienced are unique in ivory onwards
so you can bring 3 of in the deck
ty
Thats you may also have 3 nonunique Events.
Since Emperor edition.
or rather to put it more eloquently. Experienced as a keyword never had rulebook deck restrictions. Just that during the time we played, every experienced was also unique 😆
So, I feel like I'm going a little crazy. I feel like there was a rule that if you don't defend your prov you lose honor? But looking at various rulebooks I can find I can't see any reference to this rule. Was it a thingy? Or am I imagining it?
it was in LCG
if there was an attack and it was unoposed the player who havent bring any personalities to defend was losing honor
tho i do not remember clearly how much, i remember this from learning to play. but in the end i havent played even one game for real, got no other ppls to playy with.
That's indeed the LCG
Alright, good. That puts me at ease.
You lost 1 honor in the LCG for not defending. It was important for my playstyle lol
Hold on...wait a minute...just now catching up on event unique/non-unique.
Answers on: Ominous Revelation
1. When did events become non-unique? 2. In OBH Legacy, Are event unique or non-unique?
Events being unique was such an assumed thing that my eys have been glossing over Ominous Revelation every time I see it because my brain couldn't wrap itself around it.
1. I think the Rule changed in Emperor? Where, instead of being limited to one per deck by construction Rules, they're explicitly Unique, and a few are not. 2. Every Event printed before that change is considered Unique. Most or all should say so in the Oracle.
Maybe it's because my brain is fried...
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The "to a minimum of 1." clause in the spell. Is the personality's chi permanently set to a minimum of 1, or is it to a minimum of 1 only during the casting of the spell?
IMHO. If a guy has 4C and you bowed 5 Shugenja, target permanently receives -3 chi penalty.
No
It's a -5 chi penalty, to a minimum of 1.
There are rules for "to a minimum of", which we spent weeks arguing about.
Surely you remember?!
I'm sure that thread wasn't just me and Roger.
Essentially, you apply all bonuses and penalties which don't have "to a max/min" and then any bonuses or penalties that do.
If you only have penalties "to a minimum of X", you ignore any that have X greater than the current value; if you only have bonuses "to a maximum of X", you ignore any that have X less than the current value.
(current value is the value after the unrestricted bonuses and penalties)
Essentially, if I have an unrestricted penalty that will reduce my chi to 0, then a penalty to a minimum of 1 is ignored; however, I can't use a penalty to a minimum of 1 to take my chi to 1, then apply an unrestricted penalty to go to 0.
"We spent weeks arguing." I keep opening these cans of worms. To clarify...
I use doom of fu len go reduce a personality to 1 chi.
Then I play evil portents.
Does the personality die?
No, unless there are sufficient other, unrestricted chi penalties that will reduce that Personality's chi to 0.
can you use an interrupt to negate effects of an interrupt?
https://tenor.com/view/matryoshka-doll-cute-loop-gif-11357965
Nope. You cannot Interrupt or Respond to Interrupts or Responses.
ok ty
Does this Badass lady lets get elite and a little penalty for force if some potent Naga Shugenja will cast this spell for one of Her students?
[attachment: image.png] [attachment: image.png]
Answers on: Naga Shugenja
or as it is not a "FEAR" action a poor student just is bowed and doesent gets elite?
That's not exactly true.
Rules :Fire: Wars
begins🏁
now im confused
it doesen't works :p i tell ya!
Well, the rules permit an ability of the form
Interrupt: Negate the effects of previous Interrupts to the action.
Maybe.
That might be too general.
But:
Interrupt: Negate effects of Interrupts to the action that change its targetting.
Brook's second sentence is correct, though.
"You cannot Interrupt or Respond to Interrupts or Responses."
But you can both play Interrupts to the same action, and they can, potentially, interact with each other.
I suppose I did oversimplify it, fair.
so you can interrupt with yaheiko sensi and interrupt with shield of the honored soul? resulting to the battle action getting negated and negating the force penalty?
Answers on: Shield of the Honored Soul
so what about Yaheiko and non fear bowing effects? (or all bowing effects are considered fears?)
It's not Fear. It does not interact with the trait.
Only Fear actions create Fear effects.
so powerfull are these green Shuggies ;D
thanks!
No. "Shield of the Honored Soul" negates penalties from the action it Interrupted, not any other actions (including Interrupts to the action).
ahh i see thanks for the clarification 🙂
may I target with this spell a personality it is attached to ?
[attachment: image.png]
Yep.
In regards to City of Tears or Emperor Edition Battle Equip for Spells, what happens if I perform those as Naval or with Sneak Attack and my opponent uses Reinforce the Gates or Entrenched Position? Do I fail to attach the spell and/or still need to pay the gold cost?
[attachment: printing_6235_1_details.png] [attachment: printing_2355_1_details.png]
I know there was a ruling on this waaaaay back when but it's been a while
In Emperor you don't have to pay.
If you use rulebook Battle/Equip for Spells from Sneak and its negated by Entrenched
Just checking for Celestial and CoT
If they cancel the equip part, you don't pay anything. For the big bang, if you wait for the additional action to use the spell then negate, then that would work best. Assuming my memory is correct on this
in CE: https://imgur.com/NwpqfBW
Much thanks, I remember now and it never hurts to be sure.
Seeing these screenshots really makes me feel nostalgic.
@kempy_nezumi I'm impressed at the fact that you found all these specific rules from the old pages
Im pretty sure he saved the whole fourms as of [x] date?
I wonder how much space that took
1.21 gigawatts!
[attachment: image0.gif]
If I could access that, I'd just be looking through for all my old posts.
hehe
i think on the aeg forum i went by oni no vash
did you figure it out?
Sometimes you gotta RTFC...
lol
i can understand the question though,
the second even you showed i think would ahve canceld kisada funeral
assuming its for legacy?
Yep.
I have Togashi's Guidance in play.
May I use Changing Path, naming False Ring of Fire to search for and immediately play the Ring?
Which Togashi's Guidance?
Togashi's Guidance nonexp means you have no maximum hand size, which means you can't play False Ring of Fire.
Also, Changing Paths only triggers off Rings that enter play via Traits. False Ring of Fire enters play by an action, so they don't interact.
Also: Changing Paths won't let you search for any of the Rings, that... yeah
Just confirming, but in Emperor - you can Proclaim a Samurai you are paying for with Colonial Dojo, correct?
Relevant wordings: Proclaim: "Reaction: After you bring a Personality in your province with your Clan alignment into play without Clan discount, if it is your turn: Gain Honor equal to his base Personal Honor."
Colonial Dojo: "Bow: When paying for a non-Unique Samurai, he enters play for 0 Gold."
Additionally, does Colonial Dojo allow you to use Clan Allegiance when you do meet the Honor Requirement of the Personality?
[attachment: image.png]
Noooo, don't remind the people the power of [colonial Dojo]! 😉
Answers on: Colonial Dojo
s u p e r f r i e n d s i n c o m i n g
https://tenor.com/view/starkid-holy-musical-batman-super-friend-youre-never-alone-gif-12800880
Can you use Yoritomo Minoko's Engage ability if she is at home or does she need to be in the battle?
Engage must have Home to be playable from Home (or Absent)
example:
[attachment: printing_11786_1_details.png]
Awesome, ty
Can School of Wizardry be used to recruit a shugenja Personality with The Majestic Temple of the Phoenix?
Answers on: School of Wizardry, The Majestic Temple of the Phoenix
Yep.
is a focus effect considered an action for negating purposes (In this case, can Impetuous Challenge's Focus Effect focus destroying the loser if they did not focus be negated by To First Blood)?
we're assuming "no" for now
"No" is correct. Focus Effect was never an action designator, and this was clarified by not making it bold or followed by a colon in later iterations. There are several other issues with the specific interaction example you gave, too, but this covers it enough for now.
Emperor Rule set:
Does [Practicing Kata] Negate/override a "something" that gives you Battle/Open "until the end of the game"/"could do otherwise" (i.e- [Glory of the Shogun]/ [Harbingers of War]/ Reserve)
[attachment: image.png]
Nope, it doesn't override any of the effects you mentioned, because it's not contradictory to them; it's just another effect in addition. For example, in the case of both it and Glory of the Shogun being in effect, you can Battle/Open Equip once per turn and also, additionally, an unlimited number of times. These are not mutually exclusive.
does it require to move home to make ranged attack? if its interrupted with RoE does it shoot? It can be played from bowed personality ?
[attachment: image.png]
please help guys
Yes, no, no.
thanks
Then it should read "Bow and move home your target unbowed personality. If he moved, range 3 attack"
[attachment: image.png] [attachment: image.png]
Can You combine it ? can You do it as engage /my guess is no,no/
Fears can only be combined with cards within a unit
Yeah but the question is, since the target is in the unit
can it combine
or is benika the action creator
and therefore not part of the unit
The "to" clause makes both the bowing and moving required for the effect to happen.
That's fine, but it should be written as I posted.
It could be written as you did, yes, but there's nothing wrong with it as currently written.
Other cards are written more clear, so yes... it'r wrong and confusing. we shouldn't be working backwards
Anyway, about Benika's fear, no it can't be combined with anything, because it's coming from her, not the card she targeted.
This. Benika Sensei is not part of the unit, therefore cannot be combined within the unit. Same for similar effects from other cards (such as "Fear equal to Force" cards)
Anyway, yep, thanks
Yeah I just wasn't sure if since it was coming from a cat, that the cat wasn't the creator of the effect,
Are Naval and Cav one per turn or can you use it multiple times.
Once per turn; that's the default of any action unless they explicitly say otherwise (via, "Repeatable" or "Battle: Once per battle,", etc).
Ahh ok, so if I naval ambush somone i cant naval in the subsuing attack phase
You mean, if you're attacking at more than one Province, and you do it at one battle, you can't do it at another because it's still the same turn? If so, correct.
No i use ambush, and naval the 'created battle" then attack in the attack phase, I would not be able to use the naval again
Oh, "Ambush" the card. I thought you were just using that word as a term for the Naval player ability. But yes, same turn; only once.
awesome, thanks
And I assume you're asking about Ivory/20F/Onyx, since you also asked about the Cavalry ability, which has only existed in those? Earlier editions had Naval as "Once per battle" (I forget which exactly; Celestial, for sure).
Yes sorry
It was once per battle until Emperor
Ya everything after gold is new to me so lol
is [Blighted Region] Creating presence?
[attachment: image.png]
in Emperor Format
Yes
if a personality was a defender and the battle resolves
he can or he cannot /move to other battles? it can as a defender.
Moving is not the same as assigning. Check the rulebook text, I believe it says assign (can't check rn myself)
Same Personality cant be in more than one battle resolution as attacker during same attack phase. Theres no such restriction for defenders.
@kempy_nezumi Kempy You cannot use Luxurious Silk reaction to produce gold in response with ataching from Border Market. I am right?
[attachment: image.png] [attachment: image.png] [attachment: image.png]
In Emperor Luxurious Silk doesn't pay for Equip action.
This answers so many questions! Thank you.
LS became busted in Legacy, because they changed how Equip/Recruit action works.
Onyx Rulebook anywhere?
it will be somewhere after ROU i think
Still need it lol
CR 20f rules with erratas
are able to download
link?
(link)
Because this keeps coming up...
Answers on: Help from the Shadows
[attachment: printing_3055_1_details.jpg]
I have no personalities at the current battle. My opponent has no personalities at the current battle. Can I move my personality to the current battlefied using Help From The Shadows.
EDIT: FOR EMPEROR EDITION.
I believe you could in earlier editions
Yes, you can.
Or in OBH Legacy.
I always learned it as "if it creates presence...at the current battlefield, the movement is ok." But Ivory "simplified things" when they they added keywords without thinking things through. Now it takes two keywords to handle things that would normally be handled by intution and common sense.
Yep, that Rule exception was removed for Ivory in favor of the explicit "Absent" keyword on abilities.
Emphasis for a reminder of this for players playing ( ivory, 20f, onyx)
So since I've never played with it, and I can't view it in the comprehensive Emperor rulebook - Invest, how does it work?
Taking the Crab personality below - base cost is 5, Invest is 4 - would I pay 3 (using Clan Discount) and then a separate payment of 4 - or would I pay 7 all in one go? Asking, because if the first, I'm assuming taxation/excess gold can come into effect twice if I can't pay exactly, while the second, it's just one risk of taxation/excess gold
[attachment: printing_10617_1_details.png]
You add to the cost, on the interesting side card remembers it, and for future actions remember it's gold cost.
Like for the cards that checks gold cost.
And You can use clan discount with this added cost.
To be more clear - announcing Invest cost that increases cost of the card was introduced (or changed) in middle of Ivory. In early Ivory you had to pay additional Invest cost after Dynasty or attachment card enters play. It's even written in reminder part of card above.
So in late Emperor, with bridge EE/ivE cards, you must pay Invest cost after card enters play and as there's no gold pooling, you must just produce new gold for Invest.
So in Emperor you may pay 3G to bring him into play with Clan Discount and then 4GC to Invest.
And in Emperor Invest doesn't increase cost of the card permanently as in 20F.
Is invest an action? Trying to find a way to justify putting Luxurious silk in an Emperor deck.
Answers on: Luxurious Silk
No. It's not an Action.
Reese decided that the Invest cost needed to be a permanent change to the card's cost.
Mostly because some targeting & effects are dependent on cost.
I even found exactly date:
[attachment: image.png]
Out of curiosity, what exactly does luxurious silk’s reaction pay for in emperor edition?
Answers on: Luxurious Silk
I'm guessing Strategy cards with a cost, for one
Anything with an action designator: Open, Battle, Limited, etc that has a Gold coin directly attached to it, including Strategies, as Marcus said. The Gold paid for buying a Personality or attachment weren't directly of the action as they are now post-Ivory; they were more a back end rules process.
the strategy cards specifically that would be paid for during Emperor specifically would be these
[attachment: image.png]
Answers on: A Stain Cleansed
and that's only based on printed cost
there are also cards like A Stain Cleansed that have an implied cost (in this case, the total cost of the target card or unit minus 2)
Well, it's explicit insofar as it has a "" coin.
and I'm sure there's some personality here or there (I'm just guessing based off of lore, keywords I'm seeing and design logic Courtiers, Merchants and/or Kolat) that has one or several actions with a Gold Cost to the action
One example of a Personality who's action would be payable by LS would be Yasuki Baiko's
Political Open: Pay 2 Gold: Take the Imperial Favor
Ah yes, Marcus is correct. I wasn't comprehensive in my reply. Coin won't always be there. Gold paid between an action's first and second colon is also a Gold Cost of the action.
"coin" icon in action's text was rather late invention as i remember emperor cards..
Yeah, I was looking at Ivory dual bugged crossover cards.
Well, that changes up my plans a bit. Glad this was brought up.
In short words before Ivory you pay for attachment or Personality while recruiting. In Ivory its an action with cost of card you are paying for. Thats why LS works miracles in Ivory based formats (including OBH).
Wow. Luxurious silk sucks in emperor. It doesn't pay for "a new perspective" or cards with discipline? Every time I think it does something, it doesn't.
Answers on: A New Perspective
It pays for Perspective
[attachment: printing_10712_1_details.png]
Actually, the "coin in action card" is a good guideline to follow. I'm not being obtuse, I've just been caught being wrong a lot about luxurious silk.
Answers on: Luxurious Silk
Pre-Ivory, the cost of a card being brought into play (ie a Holding, Personality, or Attachment) was separate from the cost of the action that was being taken to put the card into play (and in fact, buying stuff in the Dynasty Phase wasn't an action before Ivory)
But Luxurious Silk will pay the cost of any other action.
So it will pay for Farmlands, etc.
Also Discipline is aditional cost of an action so under Emperor LS would play for this as well. Oracle shows me 6 or 7 Emperor legal Strategies with Discipline.
specifically because Playtest pointed out that Guidance in War was a virtually worthless card otherwise
Is there anything in any edition that says you can or cannot put attachments on your opponent's personalities?
Player ability: Cav... can a player only cav in 1 unit per turn? as it's a player ability? even if they have multiple cavs?
celestial and imperial ruleboks both say "your" so im assuming its generally the rulebook ability that allows a player to attach their attachments is what limits a player to only being able to attach it to personalities they control (unless a card otherwise states that it can be attached to a personality not controlled by you) so I'm assuming every edition
[attachment: image.png] [attachment: image.png]
In Ivory and Onyx Cavalry is once per turn Player's Engage ability. Same for Naval.
It definitely doesn't feel right, but I guess thats why we deathstar towered a single unit
Unicorn Stronghold in 20F had additional Cavalry Engage.
not a unicorn player
but that seems fitting
There are only specific cards that allow this, such as Kolat Geisha.
Emperor Edition rulebook has:
Limited: Any number of times per turn, choose your performing Personality and target an attachment card in your hand: Attach it to him, paying all costs.
It's strange to get used to, but ultimately has the same effect on the game. The first couple of provinces are written off as a loss, and the defense collates into the last couple. All it does is change Uni from a wide army to a mobile tower.
No as there are popular Engage cancels. Something that was hard to do against classic Cavalry.
yeah true
I wanted say the same as Kempy stated, You can just say to Unicorn: no, negated cavalry. and there is a lots of such a cards that just negates engage actions, I can understand Unicorn players why they are not in mood for Onyx. Tried persuade some of them and i Failed miserably.
I'm personally fine with that being a thing to a degree. Fighting cavalry can be frustrating
Yeah that change had a certain reason.. I think it was hard to balance things with wild Unicorn "attacking and asigning no infantry"...
we all know this phrase from old times I think
Just barely; Emperor was my first edition, and the last one to have a cavalry assignment phase
Can I use [Breaking Point] twice on the same Fear to reduce or increase it by +/-2 for a total of +/-4?
Specifically, can he discard Breaking point for courage, then using its trait can it be used again from the discard pile to interrupt the same fear effect?
Answers on: Breaking Point
If the requirements are met, I think so.
[attachment: Screenshot_20231128-131916_Adobe_Acrobat.jpg]
Yes that one.
I'm about 75% sure you can do that.
The main concern I have with it is timing. But as it is a card with only traits and no abilities, perhaps it was designed specifically to do that.
I just don't know what to tell them lol
Reason why I said 75% sure is, this is how masatari sensei works, as I understand it.
we went through the "what ifs" of the rounds that would have followed, regardless of ruling I probably could have won, I think I might've misplayed and lost although unlikely
Answers on: Cross Blades
we will still need a ruling because being able to use it twice for Courage feels a bit broken
So, to explain the issue: Normally, you cannot use the same Strategy card twice in the same turn for the same action (for instance, using Discipline) unless it says otherwise (for instance, using Repeatable, example: Cross Blades). My point was that Courage is a Repeatable player/rulebook ability, therefore ignores that. A further issue was brought up about timing: is it discarded at the end of the Interrupt step of Courage (meaning it's in the discard pile ready to be used for its trait text), or is it discarded at the end of the Fear action (meaning it doesn't enter the discard pile until it's too late to be used for its trait text)?
@Brook Cunningham
Matsu Iarimi has an engage that lets her lobby, does this override the opponent having more honor? or is that ability just neutralized?
Yes, this can be done. a player a player
Neither; it's discarded during the resolution of the Courage Interrupt, as its first effect.
No, it doesn't override the Honor check.
Thank you.
Thank you. Do we know if the potential double-Courage was an intended design for Breaking Point?
Answers on: Breaking Point
Sorry, I don't recall if it ever came up during Rules proofreading, way back in 2015. I'd like to hope we would've noticed the possibility, asked Design, and changed it if it weren't intended. 😛
It seems it would be designed with that intent if it can be done
lol
To me it seemed like more of a timing issue than anything, does it hit discard before the interrupt window is complete
Can Welcoming Demeanor only be used for it's ability during your own dynasty, or can it be done during the opponent's dynasty?
Answers on: Welcoming Demeanor
When you discard a card, it goes directly to the discard pile.
This is different to playing a card from hand, where it goes to a temporary resolution area or entering play area (depending on whether the ability is on the card or in the rulebook - cards that enter play using their own text do both).
Anyway, Breaking Point will be in the discard pile by the time your next opportunity to take an Interrupt comes round.
does using an printed battle action on a personality count as "targeting that personality with an action"?
Not implicitly, no. The action must explicitly say it targets.
ok thank you! 🙂
Dynasty actions are limited by the Rules to only be taken during your own Dynasty Phase; there would have to be an explicit exception in a Dynasty ability to take it on another player's turn.
Just FYI, this post from Gilador is a more detailed version of my answer to you above that starts "Neither". 🙂
well, it's good to know, because I might have accidentally stumbled into a decent crane honor runner, and given the fair amount of Fear actions in Onyx every little bit helps
then courage should be limited like honor then 1 card per action else it will make fear totally useless or over powered
Well... The Honour Interrupt directly advances you towards a win condition
The Courage Interrupt isn't quite so game changing.
And you could drop a whole stack of Courage cards to boost a Fear action, and your opponent then just plays A Stout Heart.
Thats what I thought but I wasn't sure.
Can you bow holdings to produce gold for no reason? or do you HAVE to pay for something?
for Kaishime's Favor action: does it matter if the target personality has to assign, or does a Cavalry Engage move or Battle Action move also cause the dishonor + gain 2 honor? I'm assuming the latter because it doesn't specify assign, only attack/defend
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Assign or move will both trigger his effect
Thought as much since it doesn't specify assign. Glad to hear it confirmed
For emperor edition...my opponent has two units and attacks me with one of them. My opponent takes a province while I'm defending elsewhere. After my opponent takes a province, at my battlefield I attempt to use determined challenge to harpoon his other person, who has not been in battle resolution. Can my opponent use Ryoshun's Guidance (or any other redirection) to redirect the targeting to the unit that has already been in battle resolution? If so, what happens?
Answers on: Ryoshun's Guidance, Determined Challenge
Yes, the opponent can redirect, and the "No Second Battle" rule will cause the harpoon movement to fail. 😦 Sad for you.
Determined Challenge may be played by attacker only.
Oops. Fair point. I didn't check the legality on that. So, a player assuming you were Harpooning with something else, my answer stands. 😛