Sun and Moon #rules-questions

Question about Onyx Ring of the Void. Since you put it into play when you have equal number of Fate cards in play and in hand, do created Followers count?

yes

can I move my shugenja/monk with [The Emperors Road] to unresolved battlefield without any units?

Yes

It is sleaze

i was almost sure I can but wanted to erase this slight doubt

in ivory or in obh legacy - yes

it doesnt matter if cards in unit are with different elemental, if they have ranged attacks, they may be combined

and Your shugenja doesent neet to have an element keyword of any of thous spells unless spell states otherwise

If my personality is bowed, can they still lobby for the imperial favor if they have Blessed Mantle?

Also same question if an action sets my Force to the Chi, so it become 3F 3C

which action does that?

I do not recall any, I can only bring a [Tangen's Lies] but that doesn't set forces You are just forced to contribute Chi instead Force

Black Watch Sensei can switch Force and Chi

yeah I don't mean ask about switching [Tangen's Lies] do the same, but where You get "set force to chi" ??

Tangen's Lies does not switch anything. It makes you contribute Chi instead of Force. Yogo Maboro sets Force to Chi

true I stated that above either way (silly me)

as it is trait...

thank You very much, I thought it was something in thous lines, but wasn't sure if it still exist, after all if I fail to find these three non-unique cards with different titles that I have to show face up to my opponent and then put under stronghold I won't outright lose the game, as it is in some instances 😉

and i can let my opponent wonder that I have in my deck only unique powerfull bombs

That's interesting. Thanks for the clarification

oh my that looks like some dark magic trick to me...

😵‍💫

now my imagination went wild and I have some grim suspicion..

Have question, and doubts about her powerful trait, does it include Only [Mirumoto Hitomi] or all her unit ?||/I fear the former ;(/ || I ask about it because of clunky targeting sequence of [Caress of Fu Leng]. Another question I have is in case of redirecting or negating [Caress of Fu Leng] action. Can I time it such that shugenja bearing that maho spell will get chi penalty from the spell effect, even if I am negatinon/redirect is triggert when my personality is targeted? Or I am forced to negate it before my opponent will chose an attachment /before geting chi penalty/?

First sentence (cannot gain shadowlands) only applies to the Personality, if it would apply to the unit I think it would specify because I do believe there to be precedence (although I admittedly cannot recall from which card at this moment)

As for a redirect/negate: if played during the interrupt step, it would be after paying costs (in this case, bow) but before resolving effects (-2C to put the attachment into hand). I don't believe there's a redirect/negate as a response since responses fall after the action anyway, but any response action would happen after the -2C

It is not that sure cause there are two targeting steps, and I just feel it is too powerful spell in the first place, if it's like that.

so you do have to telegraph if you're targeting an attachment

Most of the time the attachment is the main target.

you're still choosing the targets before the interrupt step, that's the main takeaway, so it can be redirected or negated by an interrupt

So if I use Caress of Fu Leng to target a Personality and plan to give their attachment Shadowlands, then my enemy uses Final Sacrifice to redirect it to a Yojimbo with an attachment. Can I still target the Yojimbo's attachment and return it to their hand?

may it copy copied ability?

help

Yes

Some abilities cannot be copied like eg Tactical Advantage (by rulebook).

So "lose honor to..." means that this Holding ability cannot be played by most of Shadowlands Horde Strongholds or player using Ikikashi Sensei.

so different reason but still same ruling that unless you lose the 2 honor you can't get the 3F Oni? 🤔 interesting

Much thanks for the clean explanation as always.

When I say "Printed keyword" I'm referring the the phrasing on the Justice of the Crane. In this case "The printed Magistrate Keyword"

Can a personality targeted with the soul of be granted an additional action from Justice of Crane

"Printed" - physically printed on card

OK. So these two cards do not combo together. That was my thought but I wanted to be sure.

I also think like that so I doubt it would work.

Had to ask because it seemed like a potential quirky interaction with a potential fun combo if it did work.

But what you do get out of this combo is that if your Personality has Justice of the Crane attached first, you can give them the +1C and ability from Spirit of the Truth

Since Spirit of the Truth only checks if you are Magistrate at all, not specifically printed.

An interesting point

I could defintely see this in a Dishonor based Magistrate deck that needs control.

Allows for some good non Magistrate personalities for tech

Back in Celestial, I'd use A Magistrate's Blade for the same combo

what happens to dead token personalities when they die? do they get RFG'd or put in dead stack?

Rfg

Also, can you use it's gold production on an action that doens't cost gold?

yes, you need to actually pay for something

But can it be a 0 cost action?

nope

Altho You can't use [Temple Fortess] . I think You can use [Forgotten Mine] to produce gold for its Tireless destruction action?

So I bow [Forgotten Mine] for gold then use it Tireless battle action thus destroying it. Or You can't do that?

Does this retroactively apply, or just for the current ruleset? I'm thinking specifically in this case of Bayushi Tsimaru exp.

timing wise, i dont think so.

If you have bowed FM and spare gold in pool (eg as a part of gold produced by FM earlier this turn) , you may announce its Tireless ability and use this spare gold.

If you have unbowed FM and announce its battle ability you follow: you target, pay a gold cost (also by bowing FM), and follow order of ability effects including destroying holding.

ah, i was mistaken

I mean, he's face-up in a province, out of play, but his trait triggers to allow the player to pay 2 less gold on Kharmic actions

I'm pretty sure that's not how it's intended but just checking if it's possible

MIght look for a better example than Lao-tsu

As an addition to only affecting the card itself, gotcha

In Emperor, for Strategies, yes - from the comprehensive rules EE Costs and Restrictions - "It is permitted to overpay a Gold cost by any amount, including producing Gold to overpay a Gold cost of zero on (for example) a Strategy card. It is not permitted to pay Gold to bring into play a card with no Gold cost stat (such as a Ring or Region), or for an action with no Gold cost on a non-Strategy card (such as a Personality or Follower)."

Basically, does the armor count first for the person or itself?

ooohoho ;D i see a honor combo brewing there

cause it is written personality, and there are Forest of possibilities to moving this one around

I think Ritual Armor would allow to increase honor gain every time if action targets new Pesonality wearing it

just to clarify "no second battle rule" is only for attacking personalities who have been in a battle resolution and not for defending personalities?

Yes that's right

Defenders can still move to other battles after being in battle resolution

Also defending Personalities stay at their battlefields until end of phase. Its important as there were tricks that allowed to move attacking Personality to resolved battlefield. Such Personalities are there until end of phase then move home bowed.

That was usually a thing in Ivory/20F. I think Onyx cards have gone back to "any location"

That's one of the reasons I got so much use out of Isawa Uzuyumi and Fire and Air in Ivory/20F. My spell tower would just jump to the adjacent battlefield and people could rarely chase me if they overcomitted their defense

Ah, but can your spell tower deal with the massive army I'm building?

proceeds to flip nothing but holdings for 2 turns

Koan's Robes expecially

I didn't recognize the name at first but yeah I remember seeing a lot of Taruko

I assumed so, but wanted to double check

Naval run away and gain 2 honor was cool

If I play a card that causes me honor loss, and their nexus of lies ping me for more honor loss, am I now able to ignore Honor Reqs?

No. Nexus increases the loss you cause yourself. It is not a separate loss caused by your opponent

thank you

Also Nexus has reminder text indicating that it doesn’t trigger this.

I dont use nexus, but I thought of it during my drive

so wasnt sure

i see thank you!

When a verb can also be considered a noun or an adjective, you know something's wrong.

Question for this event: if both players have it in play, does the draw effect stack for both players?

Not if one player is running Takao Sensei.

Accelerated card draw could accelerate win condition too, depending on the deck. If you're running Takao Sensei, you still have to last long enough for that.

Ah but I do remember stories about people racing to get an Event out first.

cackles in Naga recycling the fate deck

I recall at least the Unique rule in Lotus. I think they were both dropped in Samurai since I don't remember having to adjust to not having them in Celestial.

i really laughed out loud to this, haha

There was a little confusion about this card- the card being targeted (not the one getting the force bonus) has to be bowed, yes? regardless of being a Follower or Personality?

Yes

No. AFAIR he gains honor for allying only.

Don't have the rulebook here right now, remind me how allying then works? (Played in person, didn't have access to the online rulebooks in your folder)

when you allied with someone, you got 2 honor

Ah, it's in Dropbox in Alternate Formats.

also this is really important in classic multiplayer:

Final Steps: During the final steps after the Resolution Segment ends, when attacking units return home and bow, allied units also return home and bow, regardless of whether they were controlled by an attacking or defending ally.

really should have checked the rules, the Scorp player would have started with the Bamboo Harvester from S:HoD and probably would have tried to break my last province instead of attacking the Mantis when I had 2 honor left to get (although I also noticed it's only on invitation)

Question regarding this card; if I play a card that prevents him from assigning or moving to battlefield, such as Send a Message, does his ability not work?

I personally assumed it does, strictly because of the line "After the first time (this turn) the target assigns or moves to a battlefield, move Iwari there, and if the target is attacking, his player loses 1 Honor, or 2 Honor if the target is Crab Clan."

It sounds like he would NEED to move to create the honor loss. Is that the case or that not the case?

Send a Message prevents from assigning or moving into attacking army (so it prevents target to become attacking Personality), so Iwari's ability won't trigger (including his movement).

Honor loss is depend on being "attacking".

(Or similar movement negation)

The target definitely needs to move or assign, so if he negates the target's movement after using Iwari's Open, he's wasted Iwari's Open

Ah, so in this scenario honor loss isn't depend on moving Iwari.

Nevermind I guess Storms of War didnt have a clause like that, must be misremembering.

alright thank you

okay thanks

Just wanted to check if spells that require bowing the Shugenja it's attached to can trigger Ritual Armor.

good question, is "this shugenja" an implied targeting requirement, basically? would be interesting to now

its action from this shugenja You do not need targeting

that's why I'm curious too, since being attachments, spells are part of the unit, not the personality... right? I would assume an action from the personality would be one printed on that personality, not the ones from its unit

Same goes for Shugenjas and their spells

i do see the logic there, on the other hand, I've used "bow target card" actions to bow spells since that wouldn't trigger Flame's Protection (negate effect of an action targeting this personality) since I'm technically not targeting the personality

Pre-Ivory, Ritual Armor might include actions "performed by this Personality". If so, Spells would count. But as it's written, it likely doesn't.

what card do say that ? if You mean [Meditating Mind] it does target Unit

but mayb i'll post that too there

There are a lot of cards that just target a card without attachments or specifically an attachment

Inexplicable Challenge, for example, bow target enemy card without attachments, attachments are cards without attachments, I can bow your spells that way, as one example

in Onyx?

cause I mean explicitly Onyx ruleset

No.

Action that targets Unit also targets Personality.

IMHO action comes from Spell and doesn't target Shugenja - so Ritual Armour won't increase gain.

Honor gain doesn't comes from Equip action (that targets). It comes from Spell's trait.

Sadly Rital Armour was released after IP sale, so there wasn't single question about it on Rules forum.

One last question, what if the action destroys my Personality and then has an Honor gain? Should still count since my Personality had Ritual Armor at the time of targeting, right?

Gotcha, much thanks

single delayed gains where Ritual Armor is still in play would still apply though, right? (Thinking specifically the Open action on Doji Kaishime, though other examples may also exist)

If personality uses her printed force as a duel stat, it cannot be increase nor decreased?

By an items or effects?

correct. it being printed is defrent from "uses force as duel stat"

Ohh i see so if the personality has a weapon the force modifier doesnt take effect for the duel, just the fv of focused cards

thank You

can you have both bamboo harvesters and A favor returned in legacy obh? i dont see a favor returned in the ban list

MRP : After determining the starting player but before shuffling, if you are not the starting player, you may search your deck for this Holding and put it into play (bowed), ignoring costs. If you do, this Holding will not straighten before your third Straighten Phase. After this trait resolves, remove all your Bamboo Harvesters and Legacy Holdings from the game, and this trait on other copies of this Holding in your deck will not trigger.

You CAN, it just doesnt do anything

oh wait it has that bamboo harvesters thing? 😮 in oracle maybe i didnt see

A favor returned rather

i was just basing it on the card text in snm, i didnt check for the mrp on oracle. thanks!

thanks to Wynce 🙂

it pays 3 gold for holdings, bamboo doesnt do that so i guess thats something xD

If i have 0GC Follower and my opponnet has none, can i take IF?

You could compare to Kagami Sensei, which specifies "lowest" to include ties via bracketed italics (the usual for reminder text). Therefore, you can assume "lowest/highest" includes ties, while "lower than/higher than" excludes ties

Isn't that inconsistent, though, as 0 is higher than nil during battle resolution?

Yep.

thanks, all those different rulesets do occasionally get jumbled up so I thought it best to ask

It's never a bad thing to ask.

I have defintely mixed rules before.

I have a question about this last sentence. Can You reshuffle Your opponents card from hand and then draw 2 cards for Yourself?

I seen it played like that... and i feel it can. but is this right?

No. In the last sentence, "they" is the subject of both "reshuffle" and "draw" as implied by the comma. If the "draw" is supposed to in the imperative case (as in, telling the player to draw 2) then it should be rewritten (specifically, replace the last comma with a period)

"They" being the target player

I'll wait for @Brook Cunningham or @Alex Jones, because initially i got the same thought, but got convinced.. and now i trully do not know 😛 it this coma is worth it or not

cause in the last after coma sentence its not they draw two cards but just , draw 2 cards

If it were the owner of LoF, not the targeted player, thats supposed to draw 2, then it should be written like this

"They must reshuffle a card at random from their hand into their fate deck. Then, draw two cards."

Because according to English grammar rules, the comma would imply the "they" before "draw". You'll find similar in other germanic and romance languages, although I think those would have an advantage of conjugating the imperative case differently

(Actually, come to think of it, while translating mentally into French, "draw" here should be unconjugated since the comma even would imply "they must", not just "they")

The French translation would read "Ils doivent remélanger au hasard une carte de leur main dans le paquet Destin, puis piocher deux cartes." If it were in the imperative case, the last verb there would be conjugated "pioche" instead

but maybe intention was that You cant do that but want to be sure.

If so, it should have been written as I say here

or even if You can Draw it should be written in slightlyother way. like with dot or with stating who draws 😛

Besides this confusing reminder text, is there anything that prevents me from playing Stronghold's Open ability then use rulebook Kharmic on non-Kharmic card in hand?

its only on Your next Kharmic not mathers if its Kharmic or not

and the one following it need be a Kharmic one

not sure i understood that sentence tho

Reminder text suggests i may use it on face-up non-Kharmic Dynasty card in Province only, but ability text imho allows to use it on non-Kharmic card in hand as well.

Phoenix players are using it like everytime

So reminder text is confusing.

Ok.

Fate cards are not affected by the reminder text

"face up IF in a province" this IF have really heavy meaning there

Definitely why i prefer to play one ruleset xD

I have too much fun looking at the various cards and editions lol. Plus Emperor is where I started, so I'm particularly attached there

Are cards considered enemy during the action phase?

I don’t think so. Enemy refers to opposition at a battlefield

Ok

Question about Asako Miyabi. If either Miyabi or the enemy target is attacking, what happens if the attacker's movement is negated i.e. Ring of Earth? Do they just stay in the battle?

RoE would negate all movement, so both would stay and get tokens. The “neither will attack” part refers to assigning and movement, so I think they still stay at the battle until they leave again

what happes with Akodo Kano xp 3 and Sneak Attack or Naval? is it last declaration goes girst?

like if I use kano's engage

and the opponent plays sneak

or naval?

The most recent trigger takes priority

ok last in, thats what I assumed

Anyone online that can assist? its about a tournament game

I thought so. It made the difference on whether the win was Enlightened or Honored. Thank you kindly!

(example follower with Courtier would be Skillful Recorder)

for bow actions You need to have a trait for example like [Diplomatic Appentrice] / I think...;) / for [Inexplicable Challenge] not sure if Follower can just be an ersatz for a Personality same thing for Shugenja and Samurai [Mirumoto Masunobe] (there is not many of such a followers but they DO exist) ||Such as basic vocation for Rokugani: Samurai Courtier and Shugenja||

If the action doesn't specify a Personality, Followers with the necessary keyword should do. Followers usually lack some stats like Chi or Personal Honor but there should be no issue otherwise.

But given that [Diplomatic Appentrice] have such a trait, can other followers that are for example courtier suffice for an action that require to bow Courtier?

there are two Courtier followers

so Diplomat apprentice is just weak ;D

sorry, meant it more as a counter example to Nimuro, to make the difference between that and Diplomatic Apprentice more obvious

yeah but i feel in that regard that such a card as DA is just weak an plainly unplayable ;D

wouldn't say weak and unplayable, it merely targets a different playstyle

Weak and unplayable cause it is worse than [Skillful Recorder] even for Cranes and Scorpions cause has no action, no honor change and no draw, and even lower FV

only plus is that 2 gold for Cranes and Scorpions for Kano wind\

tho it is sure course of action as it was 20f card, so its only natural that it wil be replaced later by more powerfol cards.

this is the only one card that can be used by DA alone as a follower, I am not convinced, it does not defined a different playstyle for me.

at last in ONYX

I have a quick question regarding card ['"From Your Friend"] about first action.

It will negate all the cards with printed Absent or only when it is literally absend and the controller of that card have no presence?

i think the latter tho I am not sure.

I think it can be used only on Absent but it can be used on absend cards and on absent rulebook actions...

Ah gotcha

I think I'm crossing it with how Reactions worked

Beset from All Sides (Courtier) Hard Choices (trait, any) Mercantile Conflict (Courtier) Rank Hath Privilege (Magistrate) Shocking Rumor (Courtier) Unforgivable Shame (Courtier) Warranted Search (Magistrate) Welcoming Demeanor (Courtier)

That's 8 Political Strategy cards in Onyx that have a bow cost or condition that Diplomatic Apprentice could take over, plus there are Personalities with Political actions that have a bow cost or condition that this follower can take over (for instance, the courtier created by Otomo Terumoto - exp's Response: use the ability on your turn, bowing the follower, gain 1 honor, bow the courtier on your opponent's turn, gain 1 honor, straighten both start of your turn, repeat)

Rank Hath Privilege (Magistrate) You cannot use cause this follower lacks Personal Honor

and other can all be done by Courtiers

except [Warranted Search]

it is only then good if You really have place to a weaker Version of [Skillful Recorder] /I also gone through it all 🙂 /

you can use it because RHP checks your target Magistrate's PH, you're bowing the Follower to fulfill the bow cost

no You cannot cause Follower will not have higher PH than even a dishonored personality or personality with "-"

The wording on DA's trait says you can bow it to take over the bow cost, it doesn't replace the initial targeting

so there are 2 cards that can be used out of [DA] that cannot be used by [SR]

as you would any follower, including the Courtier followers that can be bowed for actions requiring Courtier

Hard Choices as well, and because I feel the point needs to be made, I'll list the Personalities that have a bow cost or condition Political action

Whisperer doesent require Courtier

I seen it for first time, lobbying isn't such a problem in times of winds i feel..

stil I havent seen [DA] in play 😛 i look forward mayb Marcus will play them.

/i only once tried them and then i felt they are not worth slot same like [Myia Records] when [Forgotten Mine] is around ;D

Asahina Takuma, Twin Forks Governor Bayushi Akane Dashmar, Venerable Lord Doji Ejio Doji Natsuyo (also exp1) Isawa Zuiun Iweko Miaka, Princess of Rokugan - exp Kakita Akitomo Kakita Inaka Kakita Oshaberi Kakita Seiyami Kitsuki Goto Otomo Suikihime, Second City Governor Otomo Terumoto (technically not him, but the courtier he creates when recruited) Seppun Nanase Shinjo Jao-shen Shosuro Narami Utaku Zo Sia Yogo Ayuri

All of these have a Political action that requires them to bow as a cost or as a condition

you can even use DA to flex by bowing him instead of Dashmar to win Honor victory as an open action

((also, no, I'm not building a deck around one follower))

never implied such a thing :bow:

Then inner spirit's honesty wouldn't work right? because it's honesty is when it becomes focused, not used as an action.

Oh right. There is that condition.

I dont see anything, just the ability to turn the card face up

blarg

There it is

didnt realize the data sheet was a separate document

it does work, you use a battle action to flip it face-up, then when dueling, you focus it from hand for the honesty bonus to the focus effect

Yes... I know lol.

Because your being Honest and showing you hand...

Ok. and Thanks for your time

what about tactician?

its a player ability?

thats a bit confusing

but ok

The Tactical Advantage™ ability is granted by the rulebook.

Thank you both.

I was under the impression Ivory+ events were supposed to declare when they're put in the discard, but I could be wrong.

just once

alright.

that's what I figured, because my gosh would that ability be broken to use continually. But, it clashed with my understanding, which appears it was wrong anyway. So, thanks!

(for reference)

excellent. I was hoping that would be the case.

It's a pretty good combo with that utaku 5/5/5 stronghold that makes your magistrates 1 cheaper too.

Question, can Viper tattoo be used if there is no one in the enemy army?

Thanks

yeah thats true about OBH its engage as Ivory-20F-Onyx

thanks, it's late here in europe and we both kinda forgot which it was for EE

Diamond

When Formations were introduced in the middle of this edition they had same ruling as in base Lotus? I mean you had to play them as Battle action. Or you could put them into play by satisfying "formed by" and use their eg Reaction withour loose of tempo? Like eg this one?

Thanks

Can any personality trigger this? Or does it have to be a tactictian due to the "tactical' part

Tactical requires a Tactician

Ok

Yep, i just had to scroll down farther.