Sun and Moon #rules-questions

20F comprehensive rules say to break a province army force needs to be greater than. I take it that means strictly greater than, not greater than or equal to?

I believe it has always been greater than

good to know

wait never mind, naval is only on the attack as well.

Ya, back when I played regularly Naval was different than it is now.

That's a good question, because they're almost the same card, except Unwavering is less restricted.

No, theres no Transfer. Anyway it was removed with Celestial edition.

Probably mistake. @Brook Cunningham

Makes perfect sense. I'm just trying to plan out a Legacy deck. I originally had Tireless Assault in because I remembered it working the old way, but Legacy doesn't have Presence and Relevance waivers for the cards anymore, IIRC. Unwavering, OTOH, works just like it used to thanks to the Absent keyword.

Does this only happen in the OPEN/ACTION PHASE, or does it give it to a Prov/Trait for a player DURING Dynasty?

clarifying question= when do you refil?

At any phase.

eg if you play Event during Action phase it also refills if you have less provinces.

No. You have to have Coronation in play. 1st you have to play it from Province (not refill) as Open: put into play. Then use its Open action while its in play. Then if your other card like other Event resolves from Province it may be refilled.

that is so confusing, haha

Exactly.

Its not automatic passive trait. So if someones forget about this Open he's screwed during Dynasty.

classic Tournament play

Sorry. Deleted posts. My fault. I forgot that passive trait from Coronation gives players ability, so its not ability from Event anymore or its not an ability on card in play.

Its just player's Open ability now while Coronation is in play.

for this holding, do both personalities need something to give to each other from that list?

i think No

one gives to other and second one doesent gives anything to the other

as long as one of them has something from the list it they can share it right?

yes

was thinking in using it once in my deck but gold line was kind of rought to include that one

😉

Oh ok, thanks again!

Just checking if this works. It was confirmed here before that I can banish a 5G Personality to get Tonbo Jairyu with Invest. So my question this time is if I can get Orinoko with Invest doing the same thing. Her card says the Invest cost cannot be reduced, which is why School of Wizardry couldn't fully pay for her, but the spell says ignoring costs this time.

Btw could you point to this ruling about Transpose and Tonbo Jairyu?

Ok, i have this here: (link)

I'm just wondering, with definition of Ignore, can someone Invest (increase) something that doesn't exist as Ignore makes that cost doesn't exist anymore.

@Brook Cunningham ?

So no combo here a player and previous answer about Tonbo is also incorrect.

I don't think so, as there's no paying, there's no even a window/trigger to check Invest trait

Instead changing Invest i should think about rewording spell

As you see Invest definiton above, you increase cost before paying this cost. But Ignore skips whole "cost" part of card entering play.

Anyway, as there's no more Rules Forum and Oracle doesn't hold any rulings, Onyx guys should just create a FAQ document as it worked in pre-Samurai editions. And this file should contains rulings for specific cards.

Accumulated Rulings Onyx

https://images.oracleofthevoid.com/l5r/f9/f9/printing_6660_1_details.jpg

Can I transfer my enemy's attachment if my enemy is not at the current battlefield?

In general, can I transfer one attachment not at the battlefield to another personality at the battlefield? Examples...

https://images.oracleofthevoid.com/l5r/bf/a4/printing_5927_3_details.jpg

Permanent encampment seems to be the exception to the rule with a specific reference "at the current battlefield." Most other cards with Battle: transfer don't mention this restriction.

text in brackets is reminder, not a part of ability (its also in different font). it just reminds that you must target a card at current battlefield by rulebook

both targets, your personality and attachament, must be at current battlefield. it worked this way in celestial when this card was printed and its true in legacy also.

Why new Radiant Bay works in different way than Forgotten Legacy?

Both have same keyword - Legacy - that is explained in 20F CR

Invest is a permanent increase in gold cost? Out of curiousity... if I use any bring a dead personality back into play ability that doesnt ignore gold cost or a card that checks gold cost on a personality that i previously used invest on, I am forced to use the increased cost? For example, will or standing fast on an invested tsuruchi kaitaru would always consider his gold cost as 15?

related cards, asking mainly because I saw will in the onyx pdfs, even though I realize that Kaitaru is not legal for onyx

Yes. Gold cost is increased permanently.

Unless card will be face down and out of play, this stat change is permanent.

It matters for Will or Standing Fast until end of game.

I see, thanks Kempy! 👍

When this lady issues a challenge, do both personalities use thier force stat or just her and the opposing personality uses chi?

If Onita challenges, both Personalities use Force

Ya to my eyes it's a counter attack for Naga and ratlings.

If you could use human followers I would think there would be a Comma in there somehere.

I think it's just nonhumans

thank you very much Wynce and Hinosai

Hehe, if you are playing with elemental dragons, that could work too

🤔 now im wondering how i can fit in elemental dragons in the deck I'm making for the next onyx tourney. a player convinced me to join the next tournament if it is onyx.

It is pretty steep for 1 dragon.

Counterattack is IMHO really bad design-wise card for L5R. It's too much swingy. I think that Naga should get Retribution-like card with bonuses for Personality and his Followers, as i can remember Onyx Commander theme is about Followers.

I saw such actions with Retribution as well. At least Retribution also allows to break multiple Provinces but it requires absent movement, sometimes + straightening.

Also i think that was a solid reason they stopped reprinting Counterattack after Gold, even if they also added no-second-battle rule to avoid same units breaking multiple provinces same attack phase.

Or instead this Naga Counterattack they should think about Naga version of The Perfect Moment

Yes. Reminder in bracket is here to avoid situation if someone would like to use this ability granted by Stronghold on face-down card in Province. Anyway i think that reminder should be replaced by ability text as now thanks to this wording you still may use it on face-down card (as it's non-Kharmic one).

Unless there's explained non-Kharmic definition in Onyx datasheet.

if a strategy has the tactical keyword, does it use the personality who is using its tactical trait?

I would assume so, given that originally it was added to replace

Target a personality with the tactician trait. Do a thing. This counts as their use of the tactician trait

Ya i assumed so as well, was just checking with someone who knows better hehe

Lol, I would say thinks they know better

I haven’t been up on the rules for a while

Anyway, some Legacy rules use old classic system of "one Tactical ability per Tactician per turn":

-from OBH Legacy: Tactical Advantage Repeatable Tactical Battle: Target your performing Tactician and discard a fate card from your hand: give him a Force bonus equal to the Focus Value of the discarded card. * This action can only give one Force bonus per turn to each Tactician due to the rule about performing Tactical actions

- from AEG Legacy: "Tactical An action with the Tactical keyword can only be performed by a Tactician Personality. The rulebook Tactical Advantage ability is a Tactical ability. Each Tactician can only perform one Tactical action per turn."

- from Modern: "Tactician Add the following sentences to this entry: "Each Tactician can only perform one Tactical action per turn. The rulebook Tactical Advantage ability is a Tactical ability."

Also in Onyx Remastered they are bringing back Tactical abilities and on per turn per Tactician restriction

In old Onyx they were trying to continue 20F system, that's why like original Onyx Banish All Doubt was like this:

In Onyx Remastered they brought back Tactical abilities

Granted, 20f only has 2 cards with Tactical printed on them and both are in reference ot the rulebook ability, so they don't have any Tactical abilities to have this rule on, so my bad on that

This means that you can still just use Tactical Advantage to discard a card, for whatever reason you want to do that

Maybe should have said that the Personality can no longer perform the Tactical Advantage ability this turn.

discarding a card to do nothing might just be a big flex move to intimidate the other player into conceding 🤔

Awesome, tyvm

who gets the honor loss for this? is it the person that bowed? or is it the player that played the card

The player that played the card

thanks

From Onyx Rev datasheet: "The Honor ability has been errata’d as originally intended to only be usable once per action."

Shouldnt this one be once per action per player?

Indeed. But probably best way to avoid confusion is to put whole corrected ability into data sheet.

I am rereading Favor stuff in Onyx rules sheet and i am confused about eg Commanding Favor. How does game "know" you have any way to pay a cost of discarding Favor as Interrupt - as Interrupt window happens AFTER announcing, targeting and paying costs. 20F CR says that it may be waived if theres an effect or waiver that skips this (not action - so passive trait or similiar).

"Favor actions require that their player control the Imperial Favor, or have an alternate effect, substitute, or waiver (“need not”) for discarding the Favor."

Onyx data sheet says:

"You must be able to pay the cost of the Imperial Favor. This means, ordinarily, that you must control the Imperial Favor and be able to discard it to pay this cost. The cost may be paid by alternate means, such as actions which read “pay the action’s cost”.

Which is weird as you create situation when one action cost depends on whole other future action like Interrupt.

Or maybe i am overthinking and with actual wording you may annouce Commanding Favor only if you have IF already, but you may use its Interrupt to discard Event instead of IF.

Wasn't just better way to use "Open: put into play" + classic CF passive trait that may trigger itself "Before you discard the Imperial Favor for a Favor action" as it's in Oracle digital MRP now.

@Brook Cunningham a player

Interrupt isn't Reaction or passive trait that may trigger at any specific moment like "before something happens" or "before you pay the cost"

Would not actually be surprised if that's the idea from a flavor/fluff perspective: you can't command the favor of the Emperor if you don't already have it

We're looking into this.

Tentatively, this works because of the Good Faith Rule; that is, you can announce an action with effects that you can't pay for during Pay Costs if and only if you have a means to pay for that effect during the Interrupt Step, and if you announce an action in such a manner, you are required to produce the appropriate corresponding effect in the Interrupt Step. If the enabling Interrupt fails, costs aren't paid, and the initial action fails.

If you try to announce such an action without the appropriate follow-up Interrupt to pay costs in the Interrupt Step, that's an illegal play subject to the Floor Rules (ie. don't do that, it's naughty).

This isn't a final ruling, so there's a possibility that things will change here. Certainly, there's going to be some, um, tidying to the rulebook in this area in the near future.

Yeah, basically you need to successfully defend your Province from an Attacker.

Not the original ring of earth though?

so question, strength remains says "you minimum fate deck size is increased by 2", is that for each copy of this card?

yes

so if you have 3 copies, your fate deck minimum is 46

eeeek ok gotcha, i see why it has that though

Can he target himself with the battle action?

My initial thought is no.

"another target Person" is how i see you can't

does jinai sensei also allow you to start with earth in play or is that a "an old stronghold allowed you to pick a ring"?

Old stronghold

Got it

Oh ok