Messages from the Sun and Moon #rules-questions Discord channel, copied for Oracle of the Void. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings and the rulebooks may differ.
2 questions: 1. if i equip 3 spells to her as a phoenix player, does the force and chi bonus become increased per spell? 2 im assuming the bonus only last for the turn?
Yes. She gains bonus for every spell. And those bonuses are for current turn only..
ok
thanks
For purposes of range, melee, and fear tagging spells; are spells considered to have 0 force? And if the spell adds force, is it compared against the bonus?
Spells are 0f period I thought
"And if the spell adds force, is it compared against the bonus?" - no
Ok thanks
Btw in the past some cards got stats that were removed later. eg besides honor requirements, some followers in the past also had chi stat or chi modifier (like items)
Also honor-gaining Holdings got this fan-stat
So would you just need a ranged 1 to kill Kenku duelist for example? Or can you get away with a range 0
Last time I had to rule on +F followers (like 10 years ago) the answer would have been 1.
So if this spell was targeted by a range, melee, or fear attack, it would need at least a 1?
You can't shoot or punch or scare a spell unless it counts as a Follower or Personality.
If you have an effet that said something like, "Destroy an opposing card with less than 3 force," then you could destroy the spell because a non-present stat on a card evaluates to 0.
But not a +4 weapon because the stat box for Force on that card has a +4 in it.
This being one example
There's a reason they had to write exception text on it explicitly: "that may target Items and Spells" - because the Game Rules don't let you do that.
If you target an item, you compare against the item's Force stat, which is normally a bonus. So you could punch a +3 weapon to death (MA1 + 2 for targeting an attachment)
If you target a spell, you compare again the spell's Force state, which in the case of "Strength of the Tsunami" does not exist. Stats that don't exist on a card count as "0".
The printed effect text of "This Shugenja has +6F" is not a Force stat.
Oh ok
Those live in little boxes on the top-left of the appropriate cards.
Ok
Thanks
Small clarification. +x on Item isnt bonus just a stat modifier. Cards that negates eg force bonuses dont work on such modifiers.
Ah, yeah, they finally changed that term in the rulebook at, what, Celestial Edition? That saves a whole lot of Comprehensive Rulings pretzel text explaining why the Designers didn't intend to have In Search of the Future work against the Force Bonus stat Items. Just changing it to "Force Modifier" is much cleaner.
Gah, the number of the times the Design Team forced poor Zen, Jeff, and I to turn the English language on its head so the cards lined up ... those were some good times. 🫡
The rules lawyers
Lol
It wasn't so much the rules lawyers as the early Designers not being keen on having to abide syntax rules over how they wrote cards
And then all sorts of unintended consequences when they'd use the same applicable wording in two different cards but they playtested them meaning two completely different things.
So you can't play Overconfidence on a Personality who equips an Item with more Force than his printed Chi anymore, right?
@kempy_nezumi - Also, do "copy" effects like Ninja Shapeshifter count as a bonus/penalty effect or a modifier? If a modifier, do existing bonus effects stack over the modifier, or do they get negated / overridden?
Yes. It doesn't work if someone Equips an Item.
So copying is a bonus/penalty if it changes stat of target.
OK, that's the same as I remember from a decade or so ago. Fun times.
So if there's Personality A with base 4F and Item +3F and you copy his actual 7F to base 1F Personality B. That Personality B gains +6F bonus.
And yup, and if the 1F base personality was, say, attacking and had "has +2F while attacking" so he was at 3F when you copied, he'd get +4F to go to 7, but after battle he'd drop down to 5F
Yes.
There were those sheningans eg with Arrival of Obsidian Champion. If you have eg 0F Personality and you play on him -4F action and then play Arrival, he gains permanent +14F bonus. So he has 10F now, but starting with another turn he is 14F guy.
Lol, I remember those talks.
It was fun having this same discussion with Ritual of Summoning and Houhou.
I remember that one
Wrath of the Thunder -> set Shugenja to 0 -> use same Shugenja for Ritual of Summoning -> 7 force 5 Chu shugenja (usually HouHou)
And that pic is how people feel after trying to explain it to them
BRB putting it in the forbidden zone with “Opalescence + Humility” and “Does MST negate?” :Kappa:
If a card in play has "Battle: do somthing" can you only do it once or does it have to specify if its repeatable
Once. It will specify if it's repeatable.
With the newer sets anyway
I was a DCI judge back in 5th and 6th edition rules. I had to deal with that crap and Portculis + Living Death
It was the worst
At least under 5th. 6th ed with hard rules on stacking and active player chooses for everything made it a lot less tiresome.
Dont forget that lot of all pre Lotus cards have Repeatable in Oracle MRP to keep original intent.
for this holding, does it trigger from equiping a spell normally? or do i need to combo it with another action that equips a spell?
Yes, you need to bow this Holding as Interrupt while Equiping Spell by gold produced by other Holdings.
ok, i thought that i needed to combo it with something like elemental library or something
Libraries just say something like "as interrupr draw a card for 5G while equpiing some spell"
Ya, it's a bit expensive. It would be better if it were tireless.
If it would have Tireless it would be bonkers as you could use it on both turns and every attach (eg 0GC Spell) would get you a free card.
Bow a library then so 2 or 3g is possible
Is it still possible to bow a Holding to produce Gold that is going to Recruit 0GC Holding? Do Small Estate or Vast Paddy Fields may be used to refill up eg Small Farm? https://oracleofthevoid.com/#game=l5r,#cardid=7302
Don't forget that 5GC for a card is reasonable price. Travelling Peddler was very popular card even in editions where you was operating on less flexible gold schemes than in Ivory+
unless you use a 0gc spell, then ya i can see that. but even with a 1 or 2 gc spell, thats 7 gold to draw a card.
is there a difference between 'remote' and '
'home'
Yes. Home, as it says allow to be played from card that is at Home, where Remote allows to be played from different locations like eg adjacent battlefield
Remote = "even if this card is at other location..." Home = "even if it card is at Home..." Of course both need to have Absent if you don't have any Personalities at current battlefield.
ok
just checking, card actions need to say repeatable to use multiple times?
Repeatable or "any times per turn"
if you don't meet honor requirerments, you can't bring the personality out? unless opponent makes you lose honor somehow
But there are also few cards that just say "twice" or "up to x times".
including killing dh person
Depends on ruleset.
right?
onyx
Yes, in Onyx, if your oponent causes honor loss to you you may ignore HR for rest of the game
It's same as in Ivory/Twenty Festivals
Quick question regarding Invest in Onyx. The rules datasheet says "Invest - Upon being played, permanently increase the Gold Cost by the Invest cost to get the effect.". This spell searches for a legal Personality first, Recruits them, and then ignores cost. Just checking if I can banish a 5GC Personality to get Jairyu with his Invest effect. The way I understand it, the Invest cost is added after searching for a legal Personality.
yeah pretty much, that's legit
Yes, thank you for confirming my jank tactics
just to confirm since it's what I'm suspecting, Yaheiko Sensei's trait overrides Hida Izo's printed Elite since he's a Berserker (if the bow is as a result of a a Fear, of course, otherwise Izo's Elite functions as normal)?
That seems to be the case. As long as it's a Fear action that bowed Izo, he'll get -2F and Elite even if he already has printed Elite.
you and your NPE playstyle
Would you be able to combine range attacks in the performing unit? Same question with koiso sensei.
No.
Ranged Attack must be on cards in same unit to be combined. Strategy card and Sensei card aren't units.
If I assign multiple monks to a battle, can I play multiple rings with Dragon's heart Dojo?
No, the reaction isn't repeatable
Thanks. That's where we landed. 🙂
Yep, Lotus Edition was the beginning of OPT default for abilities.
what is Courtesy? I'm looking at a card that says it increases the effects of its limited action if you have it.
Courtesy is an additional trait-effect that only happens if you went 2nd in starting the game.
Or if you aren't first in multiplayer. 😉
Sorry, yes. It would've been more accurate to say, you "have Courtesy" if you didn't go first in the game.
https://64.media.tumblr.com/bd19927b064a5355a59f58448ef23aac/tumblr_mzeh6g23141s7gn18o8_250.gif
Ah, thank you.
i also suggest to check twenty festivals comprehensive rules in dropbox (ivory twenty festivals folder). Its last official rules source by aeg but it covers 20f ruleset better than printed rulebooks. Its more detaild. One problem is it's missing description of Honor keyword as cards with this mechanic were released after game was sold.
Huh... well, that's unintentionally bad advice, because for some odd reason, "Courtesy" appears to be missing from the 20F Comprehensive Rules. Whoops? :/
that does seem a bit of an oopsie. Fortunately, the Onyx Rules Datasheet (found in the Onyx dropbox) contains a list of keywords and traits
But they arent written there in tech fashion 😉
Does doom of the dark lord not trigger the province destruction part with takao sensei?
can consumed by darkness target an already face up personality?
helps to include the set (RtR) so it can be looked up
as written, probably; it doesn't specify "face-down" as part of the targeting
Yep, it's RtR
I suppose you're right.
unintentional according to Jer, will be repaired in future version (face-down only)
Take the Body (RoJ) - does this check for your unit cost before the spell's destruction, or after?
perhaps a different card?
What the... this is what's showing in SnM hahaha
(Just FYI, not that it matters if the other version is newer: The answer to your question for that version would be, "Before the Spell is destroyed".)
@Brook Cunningham Does doom of the dark lord not trigger the province destruction part with takao sensei?
Assuming that it circumvents the destruction is why I included it in my takao crane dueling deck
On my phone currently, could you post the card images for both? Comparing wording might help
so my guess is that this is an older image pack; the most recent update would have up-to-date cards
Take the Body more than likely changed significantly during our Mishime Sensei retooling
I'm going off of my phone. So I don't have the image packs in front of me
As I'm reading it, Takao's reshuffling happens after you draw the last card, which would be before a new card would be drawn, regardless of source
Yeah, "if ever" is a tricky timing that is better to be avoided when possible, but it would roughly equate to "when", simultaneous with the emptiness, which would then be before, "After [you] must draw a card". If that's enough tenses? 😛
"When your fate deck is empty" or "When you've drawn the last card from your fate deck" would be much clearer in wording and probably wouldn't have caused the question, I would say that wording as is would still 99% of the time be interpreted as the same
So with takao it's essentially infinite deck size?
If Myuken was given the Shugenja keyword then had some Spells attached to him, what happens to the Spells? I assume they fall off when he loses the Shugenja keyword.
(Just an idle thought I had at work)
No, they don't fall off. Attachments' legality is only checked at the point when they're attached. That said, there is a special Spell Rule that their abilities can only be used ("cast") while attached to a Shugenja.
Oh sick so as long as he remembers to pretend to be a priest he can do priest things
Even more fun, he just has to pretend to be a Kensai once, slap on a second sword, and then never has to be one again. 😛
I remember this same thing with Pokku back in CE.
question: I remember reading a ruling before in the rules junta forums about Furumaro vs Strength of the Bamboo vs Chi Death that Furumaro did not negate token-based chi death while Strength of the bamboo did. Just asking if my memory is correct or I'm misremembering
sorry if this has been answered before in the dropbox pinned comment comprehensive rules, I can't seem to find the CE comprehensive rulings there
additional question: I never checked the ruling if Muscle and Steel about the same token base chi death as well but I would like to know if MaS blocks Chi death as well, thank you
Was there a rulebook for pre-imperial?
They are in Celestial folder as zip archive of CE CR webpage. You need to download it, unzip and open index.html in any webbrowser.
Also I assume pre-imperial was actually playable, since there seems to be enough cards out in the wild they must have sold these to consumers?
I may be wrong but i think they were kind of demo decks used for demo games at conventions and to supply interested flgs.
AEG, as Zinser mentioned in his blog, decided to demoying their game everywhere.
As far as I remember, SOB does save it's target from chi death. It's because it negates its effects more than just being destroyed. Furumaro doesn't have that wording, so he alone dies from chi death.
Chi Death unavoidable.
Is it another one of those "card state only checked during action" situations? Because as I understand it, chi death happens when a character has 0 chi. Strength of the Bamboo I can see would prevent chi death at the end of the action as a result of the action's effect, but after the action is over, the character still has 0C, causing chi death anyway
(Like how copying kensai to a character allows you to equip 2 one-handed weapons, and after the character loses kensai they can keep the weapons?)
It's a case of "destruction" versus "destruction from effects". The Chi penalties at the time (and still? Not sure, don't want to look it up now) were considered from the effects.
So, the negation of the destruction from effects would at least last until the end of the turn, default duration of the negation effect. Just saying this from memory. I hope "Can't Swim" looked it up on Kempy's archive.
I'm not midmatch so i don't really need it, I'm simply curious from a game mechanics design standpoint
Whereas just "negate destruction" without "from effects" would only stop one instantaneous instance of destruction, and the Rulebook would keep trying to kill him.
Ok I found it, thank you very much Kempy, MacBeth and MarcusOrly.
the Zip file with the comprehensive rules were inside the Emperor folder named "Comprehensive Rules for Emperor Edition" but the folder inside had both CE and EE. The comprehensive rules does clarify it.
And here I was planning to abuse Touch of the Infinite by attaching Hand of the Jade Dragon to my shugenja since it's wording is similar to SOB. Guess I'll just use the hand to abuse Wedge instead.
question about cost reductions. How would these two effects interact with a say three gold cost follower?
Would nem'tek reduce it by two, then the sensei by one making it free? Or would the sensei reduce it by one then nem'tek reducing it by two but a minimum of one making it cost one?
I'd say that the Sensei would be a continuous effect, all followers having -1GC both in and out of play, therefore Nem'tek would stack after that. On a 3GC follower, that would mean it goes to 0 then raised to the minimum of 1GC
ok maybe i snipped the wrong thing for CE
You're right, but the reason why isn't exactly what you stated. It is in fact this, from the CR: "TO A MINIMUM/TO A MAXIMUM#
Bonuses, penalties and other stat changes that are restricted by “to a minimum” or “to a maximum” are applied after any other modifers, bonuses and penalties, and are limited in their amount by the stated minimum and maximum values."
ah, so even if it were the other way around, the minimum would still raise the cost to 1GC
Or rather, restrict the amount of Nem'tek's reduction rather than "raise" anything, but effectively yes.
personality that uses force as his dueling stat vs strategy that uses personal honor as dueling stat, which card wins?
((In this case, Nishoji, the Steel-Eyed vs Duel of Haiku))
Show cards? I think I know the answer
Nishoji will use his force. I believe the trait will override Haikus stipulation
POETRYYYYYY!
heh
shit
Have you made a tactical error?
well, it's a full round later already
we ruled it the other way around, but won't in the future
Is someone about to get punched thru their haiku scroll? Good ;p
I wonder where this question should be posted. But is it possible to add an option in sun and moon, so a player can show his hand easily and hide it as well? like there are many cards which request a player to show his hand, and a few that request the player with the hand open. Or if there is one, can someone tell me how to do it?
I think you can triple right click the cards in your hand to turn them around, dunno if that helps or not.
If your mouse has a wheel scroll and is like a middle button. You can press that. And a set of options will appear. Click and hold the eyeball looking one
I don't think they're allowed to make mice without at least the middle wheel/third click button.
just had to throw it out there cuz you never know.. lol
Actually theres no way to make some engine updates for Sun and Moon. But as you see theres option for other players to look at face down out of play cards (like in hand). Just use "eye" icon from radial menu. You open radial menu under middle mouse button but you may change it in options i believe. Check SnM tutorial video for this menu, its linked in (link)
I know that is complicated when you have many cards in hand, but theres no other solution unless you just put/stack all cards on table.Sorry, it doesnt work.
Is SnM not open sourced somewhere?
Probably not as Drew used some paid assets. Find Drew Castalia on FB and ask him personally.
Nope, SnM is closed source/proprietary, and the XML library used in it is licensed to just Drew.
@Brook Cunningham @Alex Jones do you know if during 20F Akasha Personalities from The Blackest Storm were meant to be played as Unaligned (as earlier re-printed Shabura) or AEG was going to introduce new Clan Alignment after releasing TBS (but before releasin Onyx or HFW)? So we need to pay 8 or 10 for Dashmar in 20F Arc tourney.
NM looks like it says recruit and that means pay for it.
Yes, you must pay for this. So it's just better way as you may use remaining gold for another purchase eg of 1GC Holding in your Provinces (if you use gold pooling).
I don't know for sure, but I imagine they were balanced and costed based on being Akasha-Aligned in all environments. Maybe someone from PT would know btter?
So what about Shabura released as OP promo https://oracleofthevoid.com/#game=l5r,#cardid=6645
Yes, but at his point (late 20F) they even don't have Stronghold.
No clues there; she wasn't bugged, so she wasn't legal for anything, just a straight reprint of the old one with not even a stat-adjustment to her Gold Cost.
"Was accidentally printed without legality bugs. Shabura is Ivory and Ivory Part 2 legal."
Ha. I was looking at your facebook post, not the Oracle for reference, and I forgot that quirk. Curious that they/we didn't adjust the GC, then? I think when she was printed, we weren't even sure/aware they were making Akasha a Clan, it was just pretty border-dressing? I know I got some proofread, early copies of TBS with unaligned borders and the Naga all alphabetically in the "N" section. It was later in the process that they actually got borders and switched to "A" for "Akasha" alphabetically in the overall set-numbering system.
In 1st May to Press pdf they are in Unaligned slot
I wonder if the Shabura "bug" situation also wasn't so much a mistake as a walkback, too? Like, she wasn't intended to be legal, but just a fun throwback non-legal Legacy reprint for fun, but then the Onyx/Naga/Akasha decision came after she was actually printed? Or maybe it was intentional internal obfuscation that accidentally got left on at the print stage, so things wouldn't leak? I know Siege: Clan War was playtested as Destroyer War to try to keep the 20th Anniversary celebratory nature of the project under wraps.
Ugh. I guess I'm misremembering, and it was Onyx proofreads is where they shifted from N to A, sorry? Pardon my poor memory.
yeah, in Onyx they are under A
It also remind me such situation like first Spider Personality printed even if first Spider Stronghold was going to be released an expansion later.
Second Spider. Daigotsu Rekai was first.
ah, you're right
But her KD version lacks Spider mon in background
Yep. The foil version has a mon, but it's the SLH Mon. The background mons were foil-only until SE.
How many booster packs does each player normally get in a booster draft L5R CCG tourney?
(CE/EE era, if that matters)
(link) -> Dropbox -> Alternate Formats -> Draft-Sealed folder
for deckbuilding purposes in 20F, does Toturi, Seven Thunder from SCW count as Toturi's Army or Unaligned for clan alignment? I've noticed him in one of the decks from the dropbox
99% sure, he's considered unaligned, as he's the only card ever to have "Toturi's Army clan mon".
Which then, i believe it was flavor
In 20F, he has no Clan Alignment.
In Legacy, Open, Imperial and Jade - ie if Toturi's Army is a Clan Alignment - he has Toturi's Army.
about what I suspected, thanks
When i cause Honor loss by using Honor keyword does it count as coming from a card?
As I read it, it's an increase/decrease modifier to another honor gain/loss, as in, it's not a source
Its still Interrupt that modifies honor gain.
Or loss
I wonder if i play Mercantile Conflict then i play a card that says "target player loses 1 honor" and increase it with Honor interrupt a final honor loss will be 3 or 4?
i thought the Honor keyword was a rulebook effect?
i.e- same as Tactician/ Tactical Advantage
I feel like the Honor interrupt isn't considered an honor loss. It modifies the actual honor loss instead of the target player's honor.
So Mercantile Confilict shouldn't affect the Honor interrupt.
this interpretation is correct, it modifies the action's original honor gain or loss; it doesn't create a new one
Just wanted some clarification. Since Orinoko's Invest says that the cost cannot be reduced, can School of Wizardry still put her into play for 0 gold?
Invest is optional, player "may" increase her cost by Invest value. So you can play her for 0 without Invest effect with help of SoW.
If you ask about paying 0 for her full cost including Invest i need to check it. Maybe there was such question in rules forum.
Thanks. And I did mean with the Invest. I always assumed they tacked that on her so that School of Wizardry wouldn't be able to work.
Hope it's readable when you click on this (it should link to imgur)
And that is exactly how I understood it back then. Much thanks~
yeah she was a beast in Playtest
is she still worth a 3 slot? or 2?
Question about "Loyal". Does At'tok'tuk sensei let you take loyal rats off of a different clan's box?
yes, since the sensei makes them members of your clan, they are also "Loyal" to your clan
Thanks
Question about Shiba Tsukimi exp5. Does Tsukimi's trait of having all element keywords of Personalities you control take effect while she's face up in a province or in the discard pile? So if I have a Personality in play with Fire, Tsukimi would also have Fire and so I can recruit her while using Koiso Sensei?
Yes. While their card is out of play, continuous traits affect the card they are on, and only that card, unless the trait states otherwise.
Much thanks.
Yep.
does "an honored Guest" count for your proclaim for the turn? or is it an adtional proclaim?
It's your one, not an additional.
thought so.
i couldnt remember. lol
was there something that lets you proclaim an aditional time?
Kakita Yusugi. 😛
And Seppun Jiramu
(Unless you play Emperor block as he got banned in this edition).
recruiting out of clan personalities still cost 2 more? i know you need to meet the HR requirements.
for onyx?
Yarp
yes, that's correct, it runs under 20F rules, with a few alterations and several new rules in the rulesheet
Was looking through the 20f rules but I didn't see anything, can you seppuku in 20f?
Only by card effect; there is no player ability for it in Ivory/20F.
One more question, back when i played if a card created presence you could use it, is that the same in 20f? For example you could attack one province, they defend, that choose another province where no one is at and use this card,
Cause you are pulling somone in and created presence you were allowed.
In order to play an action without Presence in Ivory/20F, the action will explicitly have the "Absent" keyword. The rulebook rule about creating Presence being an exception was removed.
Awesome, ty
