im guessing main differences were clan discount and cave manuvers segment?
Sun and Moon #rules-questions
Messages from the Sun and Moon #rules-questions Discord channel, copied for Oracle of the Void. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings and the rulebooks may differ.
Costs.
Also classic gold system (imperial taxation so no gold pooling).
So, cards that say "you have reconnaissance" give reconnaissance, not any actions keyworded as Recon?
Yes.
Many pre-Emperor Recon actions give Reconnaisance for purpose of Legacy formats. https://oracleofthevoid.com/#game=l5r,#cardid=1110
does divide into ash work with ikokawa sensei?
Divide Into Ash doesn't target any of your cards. +2F bonus isn't targeting, it's just stat modifier.
Also "this Shugenja's Chi" isn't targeting.
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so stuff like sailors warning works
yes
I have been looking online and in the 20f rulebook, and couldn't find if fortification enter played bowed. If it doesn't, then does that mean I can use the gold to buy more in the same turn?
Fortifications do enter play bowed as of 20F Rules. Not sure where it is in the Rulebook, but it's in the list of changes from Ivory in the Comprehensive Rules.
Actually, I don't think it's a "Rule" per se, but rather they lack the exception they used to have and therefore follow normal Holding rules of entering play bowed.
Oh ok
There was confusion as in base Ivory Fortifications were entering play unbowed as default. That's why so many pre-20F Fortifications have "this one enters play bowed" trait. They changed it with 20F again and made it as in previous editions, they enter play bowed like other holdings.
Eg here's Ivory version of PPG:
[attachment: printing_6021_3_details.png]
and later they made promo
[attachment: printing_6021_4_details.png]
and later they made another promo that contains fix for 20F+ change
[attachment: printing_6021_4_details.png]
lol 🙂
From Ivory CR:
[attachment: image.png]
From 20F CR
[attachment: image.png]
So in ivory, fortification were stronger?
Yes-ish? It was I think almost all, if not all, Editions prior to 20F where Fortifications had an exception where they entered play unbowed; 20F just decided to remove that exception for streamlining purposes, and maybe they designed around it? I can't be bothered to check at the moment, but hopefully more of them had useful traits rather than abilities, as the former wouldn't be affected by being bowed or not.
that and the standard was becoming that Fortifications produced gold into 20F and beyond, and rather than have to print "This Fortification enters play bowed" on each of them, the rule was changed, and if they weren't gold-producing, the "unbowed" text was fine as an exception (20F: Kaiu-Built Defenses)
There's question in FB about destruction of face-down Personality (ninjutsu in Lotus). If Personality X is now face-down and is considered a Ninja with some stats, and it will be destroyed in such state - does it enter discard pile face up in discarded or dead status?
[attachment: image.png]
As I'm reading that, I'd say it's dead as though it were destroyed as a personality, rather than discarded as though from a destroyed province or by being unable to join you while being flipped up as described there
My reasoning is: if it's treated as a personality, then it's destroyed the same way as a personality
Yep; if one side is dead, both sides are dead. 🙂
They weren't ninja zombies? Lol
May i target face-down card with rulebook Kharmic ability that may target non-Kharmic card when provided by this Stronghold?
[attachment: image.png]
[attachment: image.png]
Anyway Kharmic doesn't target so it should be worded in different way.
I interpreted this as you can use the karmic ability on all your cards for dynasty and fate
Well, can you otherwise target a face-down card?
I think that Stronghold ability should have word "discard" instead "target" in its text.
But i still dont know if i can discard face down card from Province. I suppose its legal to do.
Cards in hand are also face-down (except faceup if you use effect of Honesty or similiar).
Thats why Karmic rulebook ability doesnt use "target".
I've not got to the Strongholds, yet.
I'd make that
Kharmic Limited: Discard a card from your hand to draw a card, or discard a card from one of your Provinces, refilling the Province face-up.
(Or Kharmic Open: If it is your turn, etc)
Intent was if you keep stronghold up for it to he open
Be open
The ability on the SH being Open doesn't make the rulebook player ability Open.
We'll hopefully have it ironed out when we get around to the Strongholds. 🙂
Sure, I'm just saying Remove the limited from your interpretation Gil:)
If the intent is for the SH to allow using Kharmic as open, I'd suggest adding "as though it were your turn" after "without cost"
That way Kharmic's rulebook text is still respected as a Limited action
Reese wanted to get rid of Limited abilities in Onyx
need some timing clarification
@kempy_nezumi Genshin sensei. The honor gain from trait, and the ability honor gain. Are they 2 separate instances?
Marcus and I are talking about the timing.
I need a card here. Im on phone now.
As an example: He uses genshin sensei on his dishonored dude. After he wins a duel, he gets rehonored right? Does he 1. rehonor from the sensei's effects then 2. gain 1 honor from the sensei's trait? Or does his dude just gets rehonored because the timing of the 1 honor gain happens at the same time?
[attachment: Onyx370.jpg]
Yes. There are two separate gains.
thank you
Dont forget that trait works only during battle or against higher honor op.
sometimes in card games the card is the source rather than different traits or abilities, that's why I was curious
yeah, I keep forgetting that it works in battle, also, he's playing Scorpion dishonor
All good. That is assuming the conditions are satisfied.
As i read CR Genshin trait doesnt rehonor as it doesnt target. Only action rehonors.
[attachment: Screenshot_20230714-123527_Drive.jpg]
Thanks for pointing that out.
I'll reword it as a Response.
O think that adding target to trait will also help
Well, I'll consider it, anyway.
Yeah, that's the other option
just want to double-check a certain interaction: a while back when asking about Miryoku no Shima granting other personalities Kensai, I recall that the validity for the second weapon is only checked when equipping it, and never again after the personality loses Kensai at end of turn.
Alongside that logic, if I use Blessed Dojo to increase a Shugenja's Chi by 2 (happens when they're targeted for the first time by one of their spells) while I've got Wataru Sensei (Shugenja cannot have more spells than they have Chi), will excess spells be discarded at the end of turn when the bonus Chi disappears, or is that also only checked when equipping spells?
Answers on: Miryoku no Shima
(side note, while writing I checked the spells in my deck and only 3 copies of 1 of them targeted the equipping Shugenja, so I removed Blessed Dojo, but if I ever rebuild or go for a pure shugenja Dragon deck it would be good to know)
"Cannot have" is different than "A Kensai Personality can attach two Weapons if neither of them is Two-handed.".
Kensai is checked while attaching, Wataru's trait is constantly checked. Less Chi - discard redunant spells.
good to know
Due to the wording, I wasn't sure, so I thought it best to ask to make sure
If Wataru Sensei would be worded "Shugenja cannot attach more spells than they have Chi" - it could work
[attachment: image.png]
yeah, I see now, "May not have"
Funny, that was always a thing, that Shugenja could not have more Spells attached than they have Chi.
I don't think Wataru should be worded or checked that way. Checking a requirement/restriction of an attachment constantly is not a normal L5R Rules mechanic and implying it or enforcing it implicitly should be avoided. Any constant checks should be a trait of the card itself, such as, "If this Personality is ever X, discard this card".
It should function the way that Brook describes. We will make sure the wording clarifies this when we issue our ROJ 2.0 to make sure it's clearly understood you are not constantly checking and discarding spells from your guys. That 100% is not the intent.
Checking on attaching should work as i wrote above. It works same way for eg Kensai keyword.
I am merely commenting on this card in particular
And what the intent of it should be
This wording should work. Because its worded nearly same way as Kensai.
And its checked only on attaching.
yes we have already discussed this change internally.
Later it doesnt matter.
Oh, I thought you were arguing the opposite, Kempy? Sorry if I misread. :/
No problem.
Would colonial harbor break temple of the 9th kami? For the duel
No. Because bowing is a cost.
I don't remember, can a shadowlands personality use this card
[attachment: printing_2918_1_details.jpg]
I'm thinking no since gaining shadowlands is apart of the cost. And it can't gain something it already has right?
You can.
If it said "a target personality with the Shadowlands trait..." Then it would be a different story.
If I remember correctly, a personality gaining multiple instances of the same keyword is ok. Not sure though.
But no dishonor to a dishonored personality though right?
Yes.
If you target a Personality with Shadowlands, and you give him Shadowlands, there's no change in game state, so the cost hasn't been paid.
So: no, a Shadowlands Personality can't use Guerilla Tactics.
From 2007 FAQ document:
[attachment: image.png]
Guerilla tactics was wonderful on Crab
In
Shame Crab were pretty bad thru lotus
siege strategies require siege personality right?
not unless it says so.
i think im going to try a forts sensei with phoenix for nezumi's game thing
Answers on: Izuna Sensei
koiso, chukage, and izuna sensei feel kinda wonky to me support/synergy wise
Yep, only Strategic Sacrifice requires a Siege Personality performer, and note how it specifically says it does.
some of the fortifications work a little better with siege personalities
I believe that's how designed it. 😄
I don't understand the battle action. What is the 1 or 2 or 3 referring to?
[attachment: Screenshot_20230727-074753_Adobe_Acrobat.jpg]
Her Battle ability just create 1-3 Fear effects
You can split the fear in 2, or if Tochiko is attack in 3
But i just don't know how they are applied - like just Fear X or Battle: Fear X - becasue it also determines if anyone can use Interrupt. Or you can just Interrupt Courage to whole Battle ability and then EVERY of smaller Fears will be decreased/increased.
It's confusing wording.
On my phone, what does Courage rule say?
Reduce 1 fear action or 1 fear effect?
per how it's written in the rulesheet, it only modifies one of the Fear effects
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(Or increase as it may be)
With Okura is Released it still might be a multikill
yep, so on defense you can do 5/0, 4/1, 3/2; and on offense you have a whole flexible range, 5/0/0, 2/2/1, 3/1/1, etc.
plus any bonuses she may have
also "effect"
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actually no, it would affect all effects
yest, there's "any" in ivory okura
more power to Boar Board Wipe if you can pull it off
Ok, thanks for the clarification. I was looking at the pdf and saw this dude and was like,"this doesn't make sense, the wording is weird "
Whispers which you can with Weaps and Armor 🙂
Great unique
Crab ❤️ Tochiko
Like literally
Unicorn and Lion might like her too
Seifukusha: "So I'm supposed to inspect your clan members for Shadowlands taint so we can be sure we didn't make a mistake in letting you have the lands" Tochiko: roids out Oni style Seifukusha: "what did I JUST say?!"
And then, war crimes occurred
More of a Format Rules question - but for Legacy it mentions Unreleased Promos being banned. Any idea what those are?
Search Oracle for unreleased
in onyx, does Jinai sensei "you must start with the ring of earth" take effect? or is that with one of the older strongholds?
[attachment: EP163.jpg]
That’s referring to the Ivory and 20F strongholds
Yes, only for Strongholds that allow to start with Ring in play. In Legacy it also means it's mandatory choice for such Stronghold.
[attachment: printing_3495_1_details.png]
Ok
I have been play testing it, and it seems like it would be fun to play. I have been finding that conqueror trait is key.
How do you peek to see what is under the stronghold (dragon onyx)
Eye icon from radial menu.
I remember you posting it. But I dont remember where you posted it
(link) -> tutorials -> radial menu
https://youtu.be/7OT4yaYnA6I?list=PL9qwwEhE0R_yo22yQldKPyOOZ2cWW9In1&t=54
[Sun And Moon 1.4.1 - Context-sensitive radial “shortcut menu”]
around 0:48
is destroying the followers as the last step here a cost or an effect? As in, if my targeted Personality doesn't have any followers, can I still play this card?
Probably obvious to most of you, but still new
[attachment: RtR_133.png]
It's an effect. It happens last.
Do the targeting. Destroy the enemy Followers. Destroy your Personality's followers (if any).
i thought as much but I'd rather confirm than misplay mid-game
Usually costs are before a second colon in later printings, or they have a phrasing of "Do [x] to [do y]"
There's no "second colon" in Ivory-Onyx
Does it explicitly add costs, then?
Yes, with this wording you may target your Personality without Followers with this action.
Costs (bow and gold) are before colon. But to announce action you need to satisfy targeting in effect block.
Ah, before first colon, I see like with the gold coins on this:
[attachment: printing_9143_3_select.png]
It's to the left of Some colon, anyway.
🙂
thanks, I was mostly curious about the targeting "cost", maybe wrong wording for it
This card targets your Personality. If there would be a requirement of Followers, action would be worded like battle: Target your unbowed Personality with any Follower attached or something like this.
definitely clarifies
I remember raising a large stink insisting on putting all the costs to the left of the colon.
It kind of offended the old-school L5R design ascethics and made the cards look "too much like Magic cards" but at least it was easy to read.
And you didn't have to just cross-check with Dave Williams about Designer's Intent every time.
I feel like "makes the card look too much like something easy to read" is a strange arguement.
"L5R is not M:tG" was sort of a big brand point for a long time.
I suppose. Man, what's wrong with shamelessly stealing innovation though?
err... I mean... taking inspriation from a nice clean template
I can give you some backstory in (link) if you want.
always down for a good story.
as someone who got a card MRPed in Gold Edition with a question on the old L5R listserv, I can relate
I probably had your email address in my Book of Grudges.
"does searching for Garrison and attaching at the province create presence?"
[attachment: printing_2777_4_master.png] [attachment: printing_2777_1_master.png]
"well it does now lol"
I'm so happy the added the "Absent" keyword