Sun and Moon #rules-questions

April 2023

Messages from the Sun and Moon #rules-questions Discord channel, copied for Oracle of the Void. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings and the rulebooks may differ.

kempy_nezumi (not official), 6 April 2023 22:10

During Lotus default location when cards enter play is home? Asking about Ratling Raider, when i bring him into play during battle. Small rats enter play in home or at current battlefield. I think its home.

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kempy_nezumi (not official), 6 April 2023 22:12

Other cards from this era that bring Personalities in play have "at the current battlefield"

Alex Jones (rules official), 6 April 2023 22:12

The answer to that changed several times. You'd have to check the Lotus Edition rulebook, but even then I'm not sure the rule didn't change halfway through the arc.

Alex Jones (rules official), 6 April 2023 22:14

Also, just look at Ratling Raider's various versions:

Alex Jones (rules official), 6 April 2023 22:14
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Alex Jones (rules official), 6 April 2023 22:15
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Alex Jones (rules official), 6 April 2023 22:15
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kempy_nezumi (not official), 6 April 2023 22:15

during 20F they enter play in battlefield

Alex Jones (rules official), 6 April 2023 22:16

The first is explicit, the second doesn't say, and the third has reminder text...

A player, 6 April 2023 22:18

It seems like during most arcs, that affects and actions default to the current location... Aka the battlefield

kempy_nezumi (not official), 6 April 2023 22:20

during emperor default location was a home.

kempy_nezumi (not official), 6 April 2023 22:22

in 20f recruited personalities during battle enter battlefield

A player, 6 April 2023 22:22

Yeah. Lack of consistency...

kempy_nezumi (not official), 6 April 2023 22:23

from Celestial rulebook: "Created attachments and Regions attach to a Personality or province as part of their creation effect. Other cards you create enter play in your home. When a created card leaves play, remove it from the game."

A player, 7 April 2023 18:59

During Diamond and Lotus, Ratling Raider brought the personalities into play in your home.

A player, 7 April 2023 18:59

Not sure about future printings

kempy_nezumi (not official), 7 April 2023 21:46

During Lotus Senseis had rulebook rule that can't bring you below -19FH. It's gone in 20F. It also means that in Legacy Shadowlands Horde players using -19FH Strongholds have autoloss when they use Senseis with negative modifeir of Family Honor?

Alex Jones (rules official), 8 April 2023 07:36

No.

kempy_nezumi (not official), 28 April 2023 06:12
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kempy_nezumi (not official), 28 April 2023 06:12
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kempy_nezumi (not official), 28 April 2023 06:12
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kempy_nezumi (not official), 28 April 2023 06:13

Personality that copied this Kiho and use it goes on top of Dynasty deck? And if yes, you need to reshuffle it or not?

Alex Jones (rules official), 28 April 2023 06:14

"After you reveal cards in your Provinces at the start of your turn, if this Event is face-up in one of them, after the next time this game a Kiho Strategy action that does not copy abilities resolves, permanently copy that ability onto its performer removing any text allowing it to be taken more than once per turn, then remove the Strategy from the game instead of discarding it."

Alex Jones (rules official), 28 April 2023 06:15

So...

Alex Jones (rules official), 28 April 2023 06:17

Yeah.

Alex Jones (rules official), 28 April 2023 06:18

Actually, it doesn't work, as Self and No Self isn't performed, per Ivory rules

kempy_nezumi (not official), 28 April 2023 06:20

but, in Legacy there;s still performing. So eg in Obsidian Hand

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Alex Jones (rules official), 28 April 2023 06:20

None of those apply.

Brook Cunningham (rules official), 28 April 2023 16:59

If it helps, I concur with @Alex Jones . 🙂

kempy_nezumi (not official), 28 April 2023 20:25
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kempy_nezumi (not official), 28 April 2023 20:26

in ivory can i use this spell on alone shugenja?

Brook Cunningham (rules official), 28 April 2023 20:31

I believe we preserved that old, fun use of it from SE/EE arc. The movement home of "himself" doesn't target, so if he's attacking, he can be the explicitly-designated target.

kempy_nezumi (not official), 30 April 2023 12:37
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kempy_nezumi (not official), 30 April 2023 12:39

as Honor is Repeatable ability, may i just play Honor Interrupt from card in hand and then as another Interrupt use Natsuyo's ability and as another Interrupt play same Honor card i just discarded as first Interrupt (as it's in discard pile now)? Also does Natsuyo's Interrupt allows to play only one or more Honor Interrupts from discard?

Brook Cunningham (rules official), 30 April 2023 13:24 · in reply

Yes, that all seems correct in the first part, and as for your follow-up, her use of "may" expands your options but no other text limits you in any way, so you can play as many from hand or discard to the same action after taking her Interrupt to it as you like.

Keep in mind, the ones you use from the discard not only have to be Honor cards, but also Political, so of actually printed cards, only Unforgivable Shame and Word from the Imperial Court interact with Natsuyo's ability (a quick search of my TBS and Onyx base PDFs finds only I Name You Craven!, Petals and Pincer, Welcoming Demeanor, and Masters of Court to add to this list). Maybe Natsuyo would've proven too powerful through actual play and expanding options, leading to her being MRP'd/errata'd, but we never got the chance to see. :/

kempy_nezumi (not official), 30 April 2023 14:38

There were additional 2 Honor cards with Political abilities incoming in RoJ. I don't know if theu still exist in latest revamped RoJ but they were in 2015.

kempy_nezumi (not official), 30 April 2023 14:43

Just checking and they are still there with different names now.

Alex Jones (rules official), 30 April 2023 17:49

Didn't Honor get changed to once per action?

Brook Cunningham (rules official), 30 April 2023 18:00

I mean, it's not in the final CR because it's too new, so I only had EP reminder text to go off, handily. 😦

Alex Jones (rules official), 30 April 2023 18:01

I think there were some utterly busted decks based on it.

Brook Cunningham (rules official), 30 April 2023 18:41

@Alex Jones So, at what point are you thinking it got changed? Is it once per action in the EP rulesheet insert (not sure if I have one, if such a thing exists)?

kempy_nezumi (not official), 30 April 2023 19:00

It wasnt changed when game was alive.

kempy_nezumi (not official), 30 April 2023 19:01

Some people were saying it was going to be changed with base Onyx.

kempy_nezumi (not official), 30 April 2023 19:04

Also some playtest people for EP and TBS were unaware it was repeatable interrupt (or it wasnt clarified enough) So maybe it wasnt caught to be problematic during playtest.

A player, 30 April 2023 19:17 · in reply

I had long conversations 8 years ago with my team and we decided " if you wanted to drop your hand for +5honor, good luck defending your provs". With that being said, it did help " bomb cross to 40" when math was right.

I also remember asking for natsuyo nerf, as she didn't have the " pol honor" cards stipulation, and when i playtested getting x3 out, she was indeed too powerful.