Messages from the Sun and Moon #rules-questions Discord channel, copied for Oracle of the Void. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings and the rulebooks may differ.
So I have 2 rules questions that are kinda linked. Can you have recruited 2 of the same personality at once? Or do all personalities effectively gain unique when recruited?
"abilities may only be used once per turn" if you replace or use a different instance of the card, would the ability be useable?
Unless a card is Unique (or Singular), you may have any number of copies in play.
Singular cards are subject to the same deck building limits as other cards (usually 3), but you may only have one copy in play.
Unique cards are subject to a limit of one per deck.
Different experience versions of a personality count as different cards for deck construction purposes, but as the same card when you want to put them into play.
Interesting.
So you can have, for example 3x Ikoma Tsanuri (nonexp), 1x Ikoma Tsanuri exp and 1x Ikoma Tsanuri exp2 in your deck.
And during the game, you could then have 3x Ikoma Tsanuri nonexp in play simultaneously, plus one of Ikoma Tsanuri exp and Ikoma Tsanuri exp2.
For more confusion, ther're exist some experienced non-unique Personalities
so you can still have 3 of them in your deck and 3 in play at same moment.
Today I learned you can look at the cards you focus
depends on edition, but yes in most recent ruleset it's allowed
Reading 20f basic and advanced booklets
I suggest to read Comprehensive Rules instead rulebooks. It'c compact and much easier to find stuff there imho
The red box rules text sometimes counters the explanation of the rule in the examples.
I've gotten most of this stuff memorized at an able to play level, would the comprehensive rules be good for say... Learning at a judge level of understanding?
I'm assuming better than these booklettes
Maybe, for me it's easier to find something in CR instead of rulebook 😉
i tend to have a pretty good memory. is there a link in welcome channel?
yes, it's in dropbox in Twenty Festivals folder
@kempy_nezumi Just need a clarification for Broad Front. If I attack 2 provinces without any defenders, will Broad Front have no effect since the text says " if the attacking army exceeds the defending army's Force". Is it required then that there be defenders in the provinces that I attacked and used Broad Front?
No.
CR has this wording:
Battle Resolution In the Resolution Segment, the Attacker and Defender total their armies’ Force at the battlefield. A side with no units has zero Force.
Ah. Brook isn't on this Discord - I'll discuss it with him on the Oracle of the Void Discord.
We'll likely either replace "army" with "side", or omit the word entirely, eg: "if the attacking Force exceeds the defending Force by ..."
Brook has decided that a hybrid is best:
Battle: Target two battlefields that have a unit you control. Move all units at the first to the second. At the resolution of the second one's battle, if the attacking army's Force exceeds the defending Force by more than the combined Strength of both Provinces, the battle destroys both Provinces.
How long does the force and chi bonus from Return of Myth (event) last? Also, I assume it only affects nonhumans that are in play when the event fires off, so if I'm wrong on that please correct me
also: the last time I played for real was Gold or Diamond, but I'm teaching some new players IRL and I need some help understanding the way terrains work now
do I understand correctly that _most_ terrains destroy the one currently in play at the battle, but not _all_ terrains do so? Oracle doesn't have the 'destroy and replace the current terrain' added to Entrapping Terrain or Deadly Ground. I realize there were no recent MRPs of them, but should those two cards just be played like they destroy the one in play? or does it vary from terrain to terrain?
Terrains can destroy other terrains only if it says so on the card.
Ok, thank you for clarification 🙂
Hrm. This terrain doesn't have an MRP stating that it destroys others, but oracle says it does.
Reread that
It's worded to be able to play terrain without it being a rulebook effect.
Yes, sorry. I inadvertently glossed that over. Thank you
Thanks man. much appreciated.
@kempy_nezumi any plans for a Legacy discord league?
Nice idea. but you mean playing online via SnM or webcam?
Up to you guys. I can do either.
Mark Navarro (Morito Maruku) and I were discussing the logistics recently and it seems doable provided the tourney had a steady supply of judges.
That can cover different timezones.
I don't think it's this level of being serious to provide online judges for every game. i've played some l5r online tourneys in the past (some even got 100+ players) and never saw active judging. even in cuts/tops. only in irl tourneys.
or you mean someone who would make logistics about schudeling games, reporting and updating scoreboards
I really mean the judge. Legacy is going to be tricky given the volume of card interactions involved. We were anticipating a lot of rules questions during games. So at least someone who can provide guidance when needed to.
For scheduling, the players can play their matches on their preferred time. The best format if international play is involved I think is one where the tourney is at least a month long.
time isn't problem if there's no time pressure. like a month. especially for league format.
we should move to (link)
Return of Myth says, "Open: Give each Nonhuman Personality +1F/+1C and give each Nonhuman Follower +1F."
No duration is specified, so it's just until the end of the turn.
And it only affects Personalities and Followers in play at the time you take the action (or reveal the Event, if you're playing by pre-Ivory rules).
Thank you! 🙂
does the non-experienced/jade era Kyuden Kitsune lower Fox personalities by 2 gold cost _in addition_ to the clan discount you would normally have as a mantis/yoritomo player?
I'm building a lot of jade-era decks for my local playgroup right now and I just now realized that it reads as a 4g discount and that's probably a part of why FORD was so mean. didn't realize it until today
Jade era, yes.
So Ryosei non-exp is free. The other 1/2 Shuggie is free.
Yep. You can also take a look at the build that uses Lady of the Forest sensei. It adds more free fox personalities but not strictly Jade era.
Thanks to both of you 🙂 right now i'm mostly building with my own collection (imperial through gold with a smattering of diamond, lotus, and samurai) so it's not jade-exclusive, just jade-centered more or less.
so Lady of the Forest is definitely usable; I'm just not sure how it works better for 'more' fox personalities. all fox personalities get my clan's trait w/ Lady of the Forest, but don't they already have it via Kyuden Kitsune itself? maybe i'm absent minded today but I don't see the advantage over At'tok'tuk Sensei
wait, thinking this over outloud, are you implying there are fox personalities that aren't also yoritomo/mantis? if so I didn't know but your suggestion would make sense now
gonna go hunt on oracle
ok yup I get it now. I was playing in that era but somehow I don't remember it anymore. understood. thank you!
Yup. There are unaligned fox personalities that are not Mantis.
Question: Will At'tuk'tok sensei allow me to play Shinbone Warrior out of Kyuden Kitsune?
Shinbone Warrior has the Loyal keyword but the sensei gives all my ratlings my clan alignment.
No.
Oh
Then it works.
At'tok'tuk Sensei doesn't affect deck construction, so you can't play 4 copies of each non-Unique Ratling with Heart of the Shinomen Forest
But Loyal isn't a deck construction rule.
So....I can play it in Kyuden Kitsune?
You can put Shinbone Warrior in any deck as Loyal doesn't affect deck construction. You may only put it into play if it has your clan alignment, which it will if you're playing At'tok'tuk Sensei.
Cool. Now I just need to choose which Wind to use.
Black Heart or Right Hand.
nice.
So a question on normal and experienced cards, based on what knowledge i think i got of them. If you have the normal version of a card in play, you can pay the difference between the normal and the experienced version in order to overlay the experienced version on top of the normal one, and it acts as one personality with the stats of the experienced version and the abilities of both?
Did i get that right or wrong?
Only if there's more than one level of difference.
You pay if you skip an experience level as I remember. Like if you overlay an XP 4 over an Xp2.
"Levelling up" is free. If it's more than one, such as from Experienced to Experienced 3, then you pay the difference.
OH.
Okay then that resolves my follow-up
So time for the second follow up.
If you can proclaim twice in a turn, can you buy the normal personality, declare them, then upgrade and declare the upgrade as well?
No, there's never any gains or similar from overlaying, because you're not bringing someone into play.
Gotcha.
Overlaying is a special mechanic, basically.
Or was while I played.
The whole Proclaim thing is annoying, both as a keyword, and in limiting the gains to only once a turn.
And i take it if you get the exp version first, the normal version also underlays for free?
Same. No gain when overlaying.
You can't underlay except by special card effect.
I never encountered underlaying. You can still bring out the inexperienced versions even if you have the experienced version. It's the other experienced versions that you can't bring out. This assumes that the experienced versions are unique
However, if the regular version is non-Unique, you can bring it into play as a separate Personality while a Unique more experienced or Inexperienced version is out.
Yeah, doing non-Unique Experienced versions at the end is just dumb.
Wait so what happens if i have moto naleesh, the living goddess out, and the average moto naleesh shows up in my provinces? Can i not purchase her?
You got the card pics?
No
Let me check in oracle. Just using my mobile.
Nope. The regular non-Experienced version is Unique.
Both unique. Can't
So if i have the normal one out, i can overlay the exp version when it shows up, but if i have the exp version out, i cant underlay the normal version when it shows up?
Correct.
Thats stupid.
There's one card that lets you do that, but it's a special effect.
Why
?
Yes. Think of it like growing up.
You can't go back to childhood.
Unless there's a special effect.
Like freaky Friday or that Tom Hanks movie.
But by those rules, you NEVER had a childhood if your exp version hit the gield first.
Correct.
That's randomness for you.
You're not obligated to play with multiple experience levels of a Personality.
It's a deck construction choice, and chance impacts it.
Unless you're playing Unicorn All Stars.
Its not about obligation, its about consistency between rules and card effects. If i get a normal naleesh out, then get to overlay her exp version for free as a rulebook action, as a symbology of growing up, why can i not have the exp version have flashback to a younger her as a rulebook action to underlay the less experienced version.
Where's the consistency? Why is it unnessicarily contrived?
It's not contrived, that's how storytelling works.
Having a flashback is a temporary change. Growing older is permanent.
Storytelling does not work by erasing the possibilty of a character having any kind of backstory.
No, growing older is also temporary, because the you from now is different than the you two days from now.
If even slightly.
Look, this isn't a philosophical debate. That's how the game rules work. If you don't like it, go make your own game.
Oh I'm already a part of some people trying to overhaul this one. I'll have to bring this point up to them so it can be corrected, if we ever actually put out any new sort of rules text. Thank you for the help none-the-less. As annoyed as i am, its no at you, but by the rules themselves.
There's... way bigger rules issues to fix than that one.
So, so many rules got changed over the years, and not necessarily for the better.
To the point where some of the very latter years' changes feel just hostile to old sets and cards, as opposed to enhancing the present experience.
Not strictly a rules question. But lately, there's been some pushback on the existing Obsidian Hand rules and a desire to use Emperor Edition as a rule base for Legacy.
Very interested in looking at their finished ruleset.
Just a question. Is Shinsei considered to be a BoS clan member such that he now costs 2 gold? Oracle says he's unaligned.
under the TOH rules, "Monk" is considered as a clan right? so Shinsei should cost 2 gold?
when bringing him into play under a different clan like Crane or Dragon.
yes, it seemt that by TOH ruleset he is BoS Personality. I think it worked same way under AEG Legacy and there's just error in Oracle
alright.
and wait a second, in ToH there's clan discount AND you have to pay 2 gold more for other clan Personalities? oO
they can cancel out? hahaha
its weird becaue in pre ivory, there was clan discount and you had to pay normal price for out of clan personalities. and in ivory there's no clan discount but you have to pay 2 gold more for out of clan. and in toh it's mixed up.