Messages from the Oracle of the Void #rules Discord channel, copied for Oracle of the Void. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings and the rulebooks may differ.
Wondering: Shamed by valor -
As a reaction to the battle ending do I need to have a unit at the battle? Open/ battle say absent but it's a reaction so just wanted to check
I don't know how that worked in Lotus-era. Before that, you could react without presence, unless denied (e.g. Deadly Ground).
I was assuming I could because it's Reaction to the battle ending. If anyone knows for sure then let me know! Appreciate it Shiwan!
Reactions didn't need Presence.
Thank you both!
Can I still target mybowed personalities? With Abandoned For example They just can't perform actions when bowed right?
Since Diamond edition you could target your bowed Personalities with actions. And bowed Personalities can perform actions from other cards unless action has 'unbowed' restriction.
Of course you still cant use printed actions from bowed cards.
Oh interesting. So I could also duel with a bowed personality ?
I believe Duels always require the challenger to be unbowed.
Ah ok, thanks! I wondered about that one specifically
when they introduced they remove "no more restriction on targeting bowed cards" duels still require unbowed guys. later duels included it in their texts. but... there also exists duels that you can announce from bowed guys!
Ok cool! I assumed duels required it but needed to clarify! Appreciate you
So this also came up last night: Kachiko's kiss/severed from the emperor. How do these interact with effects that are not actually the favor? E.g., hidden catacombs of the scorpion
We played that they both effected the same but reading kachiko's kiss on Oracle it seems like it might not?
And one more Haha sorry for the barrage: Gozoku sensei: until you next discard the imperial favor for the condition upon an effect, etc.
I was interpreting this to mean "the condition" to mean the condition of gozoku senseis ability. Not any favor use at all.
But it's a little unclear on Oracle text. So does that mean using the favor for anything ends the effect?
about gozoku - i believe, if you use any action that discards favors as a cost or effect, lock effects ends. includes effects that mimic/replace discarding favor (like catacombs)
honestly i don't know how interact with kachiko's kiss agains "substitute" favor actions. @Brook Cunningham ?
I'll look.
Ok. Thanks! Be interested to get your oppion on all 3, kachiko, severed and gozoku if you can my friend
Kiss just gets rid of the actual favor. You can still use substitutions. Severed has a MRP that gives you a repeatable Interrupt that lets you negate ANY Favor action.
Gozoku Sensei means any discarding of the Favor for a cost/effect or any subsitution that serves the same purpose will end the Gozoku effect. The reason it's worded like it is in the Oracle is for a post-Ivory environment where the only things that are technically "costs" are Gold and Bowing; so, Favor discarding is no longer a "cost" in Ivory, but rather an "effect" upon which other effects are conditional. If that makes sense?
Which, of course, makes things more confusing for the 12,000 or so pre-Ivory cards.
Ok thanks! So for gozoku I think the wording on Oracle would be more clear if it was: Until you next discard the favor for A (instead of THE) condition upon an effect...
Would be a lot more clear. The implies a specific condition, instead of any
Just a thought. Thanks guys
Well, it's THE specific "favor discarding" condition upon a later effect.
It's specific to the effect, but it can be an(y) effect with that condition upon it.
It's not technically incorrect, just using my bachelor's degree English logic for clarity. A, is used to imply any more commonly than The. But appreciate the clarification none the less
@saaam I agree that removing non-Gold, non-Bowing (as in the specfic bow symbol) costs was not great. It means, as you said, there are probably about 12,000 cards I still need to reword to bend over backwards to that concept. Specifically, the bowing of Monks and Shujenja for Kihos and Spells; those are all still under Emperor wording, where lots of effects make those bowing "costs" unneeded.
_nods._
Yeah, makes me kind of wish the Oracle had an "Ivory Mode" and an "Everything Up to Emperor Mode", or similar - you get the idea.
Was ivory edition when the personalities gold cost changed? I'm noticing some "souls of" ivory reprints that have different gold cost but others that don't?
Yup.
That's when they really went for broke.
Any idea why some got reprinted with lower cost and some didn't?
Balance, mostly.
Eg Matsu Gohei was 4g.
Ok, gotcha. So the ivory guys are printed with their base gold cost and 2 more to proclaim? Instead of the other way around
No
You get one free proclaim per turn
Out of clan people cost 2 more to buy
As in, Personalities with a Clan Alignment but without your Clan Alignment.
So if an in clan personalities printed cost ( ivory print) Is 4 gold. Then you could still bring them out for 2 gold with the in clan discount?
No
Unaligned Personalities, and Personalities with your Clan Alignment cost their printed Gold. Everyone else costs 2g more.
Ah, ok. So it's kind of how I thought but a little more nuanced. I think i got it
Once per turn, you can Proclaim a Personality with your Clan Alignment for free.
Thanks for clarifying for me
Or rather, for no extra!
As I was saying, Gohei was 4g, but Matsu Tayuko was 3g not 2g, mostly because she'd have been waaay too good at 2g.
Gohei was pretty strong at 4g anyway, tbf 🙂
Totally, I made a scorpion deck and am updating it and I noticed some "souls of" that had cost go down but others did not. So I was wanting to clarify
yep, in any legacy format that use clan discount ivory reprints/souls are just cheaper or even free. 😉
Wow, never seen that crab guy! And you're a mind reader. That akane was exactly who made me need to ask
earlier, emperor printing
Totally, there was another feisty scorpion soul of that went from 7 to 5 on the reprint and became infinitely better 😂
probably saya 🙂
Yes sir, I'm already running her. It's like a military dishonor and very fun to play!
Yeah, there's really no good/easy fix to the huge economic shifts that came in the last arc, with the removal of Clan Discount and the introduction of Gold Pooling. :/
Ive seen some rules that ivory or later cost 2 additional gold or like Kempy said where they're just incorporated as printed for ease
Well, the former isn't all that easy, and the latter isn't all that good, so I stand by my statement. 😛
Haha, you literally made me lol with that
Which it's why we have only been using older prints... working on incorporating but I'll defer to your comment on how it's going Haha
So whispered rumors vs avoid fate, etc. What's the downside minus the focus value? It just seems a whole lot more versatile when I'm reading it. Are events that stay in your home technically not resolving until used maybe?
With Whispered Rumours, the Event gets discarded
With Avoid Fate, it gets reshuffled.
Ie, it could turn up again next turn
I get that but discarding it just seems better to me. I was already a fan of dharma technique for thre same reason
Right
I mean, yes there could be a circumstance where I avoid my own event for later but discarding an opponent's is just great
And Whispered Rumours has another ability.
I know, that's why i was asking because it just seems hands down better overall
So, yes, if you ignore the focus value, Whispered Rumours is much much better
But a) there are decks where you can't ignore the focus value
I put it in my scorpion deck and now I'm like, I need to add to my crane deck asap
and b) Avoid Fate was available much earlier
Of course. I like avoid fate for sure, but rumors is so versatile
Avoid Fate was in every base set from Imperial to Diamond.
Whispered Rumours only appeared in Lotus.
Gotcha. Well thank you for clarifying Wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something
No problem
also if you're afraid of Deadly Ground
Deadly is enh.
Sneak/Crushing is where it's at.
Super hated it against Unicorn.
@kempy_nezumi that's crazy cool too! For my crane and scorpion I prefer the whispers but that's Sweet add for my toturis army
And my naga deck, that's a great fit and totally on brand picture Haha
Yeah, it boils down to: Different/sometimes-better cards for different arcs/rulesets. As you said, though, Avoid Fate does still have its own utility in preventing your own Events from happening too soon, if they are more for a mid- to late-game benefit, like The Darkest Magics or Iris Festival.
Hey, so quick question. If I'm bowing a scorpion with hidden catacombs, Would that be considered a political action? Other cards usually specifically list if something is political and it's not on hidden catacombs so I'm assuming it's not at this point
But worthy of clarification
No, it's not Political.
@kempy_nezumi Awesome. That's what I thought! Thanks! Combos hard with a scorpion follower I found that unbowed personality for non political action
No, it doesn't combo with that Follower. Gunso Hirobumi straightens a Personality after they take an action. The Catacombs' Favor-substitution effect is from a Trait, not an action.
In contrast, Kyuden Bayushi's Favor-substitution IS an action, but it is also Political. Maybe Diplomatic Apprentice for that? :/
Oh ok, thanks for the heads up. There's actually another follower I'll throw in then. I thought about diplomatic apprentice but it's not political so that won't work Haha
Probably good anyway because the dishonor military was running rampant last night
I checked Kemp's drop box but didn't see something like this: Is there a good source for trait lists definitions? Like once spot I can find trait definitions easily?
An action is anything preceded by boldtype "Limited", "Reaction", "Open" etc. A trait is basically anything else in card text that's not.
Oh ok, well on Oracle I searched keywords: But Like : Legacy holdings... where can I find the definition of legacy
The definitions of rules-weighted keywords is in either the CR or the Legacy Format rules.
Oh ok great
I tried word searching in Adobe rulebooks and couldn't find
CR has any that were still going in Ivory/20F, Legacy Format Rules has all the "retired" ones.
Only the "last" versions of any of them, though. So, if any changed, like "Duelist" or "Conqueror", you'll be harder-pressed to find the older verions.
Ok great. So if I check both I can find them? And ive also noticed that some shadowlands followers fear effects were updated but others not
Are all the basic fear effects now follower or personality without follower? (Unless otherwise stated)
Well, "(Fear) Battle: Fear X" has a definition in the CR. If an action is "Fear Battle:" but does something different, it will say what it does explicitly, I should think. You'd have to give me specific examples of what might be confusing you due to inconsistency.
Ok that's what I thought, So skeletal troops has an updated definition vs. Zombie troops still had just: fear 3. So I wanted to clarify that basic fear effects were all updated
They used to be all followers with lower force back in the day so that's much better
And by updated: I mean the newer print of zombie troops has a definition written on it that includes personalities
Oh, right, it did. That's an overall Rules change. The paranthetical and italicized text on Skeletal Troops isn't an "update" to the card itself, it's reminder text for how the Rules work.
That's what I thought but again just needed to know for sure
I'll check the legacy and cr and some of my other questions should be answered Haha
Hopefully! If not, I'll be around. 😄
Haha well I appreciate all the help. We've been pretty into l5r recently and between this discord and Oracle, you guys have been invaluable
Reminds me of the good old days, when AEG thought so too. 🙂
Haha! That would have been the subtlest burn if an old boss of AEG was in this chat 😅
check some alt Legacy rulebooks, eg BigDeck one - it has probably all keywords explained there (AlternateFormats/Legacy/).
I did find lots in legacy rules thank you!
Does this Follower overide Akuma's trait and can be attached during Action phase?
Spicy!
I believe that Mumenitsu ovverrides requirement on attaching, but Attach is only a part of Equip.
That's not a restriction on attaching, it's a restriction on targeting.
So, no, you can't Equip Munemitsu no Oni to Akuma no Oni exp 2 during the Action Phase.
Yes, that i was expecting. Munemitsu may overrides this Oni restriction, but not Akuma's trait.
Right
Does Cavalry Escort (or any effect that bring Personalities from Province directly into battle like Unexpected Arrival) overrides Akodo or Shinjo "Will not enter play normally." trait?
The "normal" method for Personalities to enter play is during the Dynasty Phase.
Anything else is not normal.