Single time per turn, since it doesn't say Repeatable.
Question about strongholds abilities: Kyuden wasuremono: Can I only bow one ninja/ samurai per turn? Or is this a more modern phrasing and all my ninja/ samurai have this ability?
Oracle of the Void #rules
Messages from the Oracle of the Void #rules Discord channel, copied for Oracle of the Void. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings and the rulebooks may differ.
Thanks! One more, does it have to be unbowed?
Yeah, since it doesn't say otherwise.
I believe that's consistent with the rules of the time.
Okay, so unless a stronghold says otherwise it has it be unbowed? Just in general I mean
Yeah. It would say that it can be done while unbowed (old wording template), or use the Tireless keyword (new wording template).
Awesome. Thanks!
Hi! Shiwan is right on both your questions, but for some added info:
Note the difference between Kyuden Wasuremono and The Towers of the Yogo. The latter gives an ability to each of your Personalities. Also, its giving of abilities is a Trait of the Stronghold, and the abilities are considered "on" the Personalities, not the Stronghold, so they have it and can use it whether the Stronghold is bowed or not. Hope that adds clarity rather than confusion.
That was actually the point of reference I was using! I thought maybe they updated the wording. Yogo is still sooo solid
Answers on: Yogo
Ha, yeah, no. Different sort of thing. Towers of the Yogo was printed both before and after Wasuremono, however the wording stayed the same, though I grant you it certainly wouldn't be beyond L5R's pale to mess with the wording between sets.
Thanks for the clarification. Yes, I figured that was the case but they changed/errated so many things over the years I figured I'd check
Happy to help. π
It's unfortunate that's its not each personality though! It's hard to put it on par with Yogo π
Hey guys, Do weapons still add force if bowed? E.g. gohei's daisho?
Yes
They modify the personalities force directly
basically anything with a + before the Number
Awesome thanks
I'd say probably more explicitly than basically.. there are a couple of old old followers that had pluses.... they would still contribute force bowed as well.
For Rosuko sensei, Does her count toward a ring for "passive" abilities? ( forgive my magic lingo) So like prayer shrines produce an extra gold for each ring in play?
Answers on: Prayer Shrines
No. Only for "actions" = things with Limited, Open, Battle, Reaction, Interrupt in front of them.
And the term you were looking for was "traits".
Ah nice! Appreciate it and the lingo update!
So if a personality/follower has multiple range attacks (e.g. tsuruchi's legion), can it combine both?
Answers on: Tsuruchi's Legion
Nope, not unless one is a Battle ability and the other is a Reaction, etc.
That's what we thought too! Thanks!!
There's a couple of cards that explicitly say you can combine RAs, but usually out of multiple separate cards in Units, and so on.
Most others are sequential, like Blackened Sky.
Awesome. Appreciate it
@saaam a player I don't really understand Shiwan's answers here. The core answer to the initial question is correct, "No, you can't." But all the additional info and reasoning is not. Shiwan seems to be unaware that Combining Ranged Attacks is something you can do per the Rules and thinks it's a card effect of some kind. There was indeed a period of time when it was stricken from the Rules, and maybe that's the experience that's being spoken from, but in the earliest Rules, and in the latest (now including Melee and Fear), you can.
From the last CR: "Combining starts with an original action that creates a [Ranged, Melee, or Fear] attack effect from a card in a unit. As an Interrupt to that action, the player may use an ability from another card in the same unit that is appropriate to the phase and that creates another attack effect of the same kind... instead of creating a separate attack effect, each of those actionsβ relevant attack effects adds its own strength (with any modifcations) to the strength of the original attack effect."
And the reason the core answer is correct is that Combining must explicitly, as seen above, be between DIFFERENT CARDS in the same unit. I hope this clarifies for both of you? Any further questions, please feel free.
No, that's good! I thought it was the case that one couldn't combine two separate range attacks from the same card but wanted to clarify
Answers on: Oni Lair
One more for you though: Do "blood tokens" have any effect on their own or are they used but some cards? (Oni lair creates blood tokens e.g.)
No Rules behind Blood tokens, no; just card interactions.
It was a mechanic that never got any traction or support outside of the Web of Lies expansion.
Great, thank you! I figured since I couldn't find it any of the rulebooks but worth an ask
so many one off Mechanics.. ahh Madness .. ah well
Funny similarities between Blood and Madness tokens. The game also couldn't decide if they were good or bad things. Besides the Web of Lies Blood tokens that were only used for "paying" for effects, there were roughly as many that gave penalties as those that gave bonuses. And Madness tokens interacting with cards out of Coils were bad things to have, but for Bitter Lies Kensai in EP, TA, etc, they were GOOD to have ("paying" for effects again, ala Blood in WoL). π
I immediately thought of the fire tokens for togashi mitsu myself. Would have been cooler had they made them functional like that π€·ββοΈ
Answers on: Togashi Mitsu
Yes, I was responding in the context of the Clan Wars/Jade Eras as far as the rules were concerned, because the other questions seemed themed around that time period of the game.
@saaam But Combining by the Rules was a thing then too. It was removed in one of the more middle-ish eras, I forget exactly when, then brought back later.
Can't to find s definition of maddening. Looking at kyuden kitsune exp
Answers on: Kyuden Kitsune
It's flavor.
Oh ok, so no actual effect?
Nope. See also: Daigotsu Kanpeki Experienced, Battle ability.
After the intial idea to add flavor like that to abilities and traits, I believe we wized up and in later sets italicized it to make it clearer it was flavor.
Ah ok! I reread it and that makes sense Haha
It definitely is cool flavor just difficult to discern that it wasn't a keyword ability I couldn't find
When I get those Oracle editing powers back, I should Italicize Kyuden Kitsune's and Daigotsu Kanpeki's text. Somehow, I did it to Ninube Hajime, but didn't do those other two. My Emperor to Ivory conversions are... embarrassingly haphazard.
There's also a bunch of cards which kick on Bold mode for all text after them.
@Brook Cunningham We should have lobbied for a card that worked on people with rice pudding minds.
@Alex Jones Haha; suuuure. Also, "Your forests are maddening" should have meant assigning to a battlefield at Kyuden Kitsune's provinces gives the attackers Madness tokens. ;P
@Brook Cunningham Seems like there are a few instances of traits. Active traits, that have a rulebook effect associated with them. Passive Traits, that may or may not have other cards that reference them.
Perhaps we could have separate fields for them. And maybe another field for cards that key off of traits.
keywords
and in last arc they bolded rulebook ones
yes they did. but it seems like we could go one step further and split them in the DB itself.
(which honestly should have been done for Ivory.. but I wasn't part of the design convo)
I can pretty much automate the split, actually... shouldn't be a ton of work.
I mean, you could, but wouldn't it just be enough to make sure the active ones are consistently bolded, per Ivory formatting?
Also, maybe once you host Rules documents too, have the bold ones linked to their Rules. I think you were planning something like that, or a hover text, for while.
Oh, AND Ivory formatting also "separated" them all already as well. Non-bold keywords were first, in alphabetical order, followed by Bold keywords, in alphabetical order (see, like, Air Dragon Exp 3 and Akodo Kano Exp 2 for good examples near the top of the list). So again, if we can just make sure all the others are consistently formatted this way, that should be good.
P.S. We should probably call it "20F" formatting, since they changed "Shugenja" from a Bold to a Non-bold at that point, though the rest remain unchanged until Onyx, which was going to move "Soul of" into the title bar.
Hey, speaking of rules, anybody know the reasoning behind allowing Shugenja and Courtiers to seppuku?
Setting-wise, they are also technically "samurai"; see RPG. I assume that's a big part of it; the change was before my time.
pretty sure it was to match the setting rules that the RPG made (they are technically samurai, just not bushi)
separating with separate fields makes automating the rulebook links, etc.. a lot easier to program than keying from their bolding/not.
Well, whatever works best and is easiest. I just worry about adding too many lines and fields, so it might start to look unwieldy.
i can display it all as one field.... auto-bolding the one π
Cool. The thumb displays went wonky a bit, though, when the bolding was implemented. Like, Akodo Kano Exp's bold keywords are on the left instead of right in the text spoiler. Maybe this will help that even. π
yeah.
bolding it manually did throw some wrinkles in
Does the Oracle have a copy of the "as printed" text anywhere?
Just on the pictures. π
goto the original printing of the card and that should be the "as printed" version
No, not in the text field.
Or did you mean the same as I meant, that you can see the original text by the picture of the card itself?
The "as printed" text fields do exist in the oracle, and are displayed when you go to the printing of the card... but only when they are filled out, which is not by any means complete.
Oh? I guess I picked the wrong one to test what Sorn said. π
Basically, neither I nor bryan ever wanted to task @Brook Cunningham to do the gruelling job of going through all those.
Maybe after I finish all the Ivory conversions, if I'm still alive at that point.
π
One thing I am trying to do on the editing thing is to let normal people submit that sort of stuff for review, so a blessed person can just double-check and click ok. then the burden won't be so much on one person
That would really help for simple typos and the like!
that's the idea
and we can get a track record of submissions.. if we have someone who shows themselves to be highly accurate, they could potentially be blessed to help moderate
Wikipedia style π
Also, forgive me, but are you sure that Printed Text field isn't hidden? a player Can either of you steer me to a card that HAS it, because I look at a lot of old cards, and I don't remember ever seeing it (except maybe in editing view, back when I could).
Hrm. Is the SnM database generated by a dump or export from the Oracle? Or was that some kind of a manual effort to XMLize it?
Not currently
It has some divergence.
I realized that I've been making manual customizations to mine for years. It's annoying.
It's on my to-do list.
I imagine that TODO list is enormous.
Sadly at the moment I lack both both and time to help out, which is quite frustrating, as I wish I had either, for a variety of reasons.
Oh sorry.. No i was referring to the Image.. I missed there was a question on itl
Yeah. It'd be cool to have different fields, one with the "as printed" text, and then the "MRP or new wording format" wording. Maybe an Advanced Toggle.
Off topic but another question for you guys: What set/block eliminated shadowlands completely?
I mean, went to spider only
Samurai Edition
Ok and one more for you: When playing older blocks to you guys tend to go with old rules or new errata? Gold edition really had way too much errata imo
Old Rules and New Errata are not exactly opposites of one another. :/ Could you be more specific?
Well I mean one example was gold edition errated several strongholds, eg. Towers of yogo
Generally, by the end of an arc, the rulings and MRP wordings were consistent for that arc.
So Clan Wars, then Jade, then Gold. After it started to drift a bit where things were being not just MPRed, but game mechanics were starting to change, so even if a card was a reprint, I think of it like an arc-specific reprint, and not an MRP forever and ever.
But then I saw they reprinted path of wisdom and made it 3 focus (which is obviously better).
Same with For the Empire, and a bunch of others. I play them per arc.
So in Gold, you play it as 3FV.
In Clan Wars/Extended Jade, play it as 4FV.
Whereas I hold a different opinion. IMO, it's not always so easy to tell what was what when, so I'd just say go with the MRPs and most-recent Rules + Legacy, but limit your card pool by arc. This works for most things, except Ivory/20F Conqueror Rules are pretty bad if applied to Emeperor Arc.
Thing is, other cards were designed or also changed to match those changes, so it's like an ecosystem.
Sure, that's reasonably too. Keep IvE/20F out.
It just broke everything before it, really.
One of the issues I guess I'm having is that is that in gold for example: They powdered down several strongholds but at the same time the environment didn't even have really cry or counterattack. So im having a discussion with someone in my playgroup that it's not entirely relevant since some errata existed in a significantly powered down environment that we're not keeping too Haha
Hope that makes sense! Haha
I've been using the Oracle to search specific sets, so that I don't get the mish-mash of MRPs. I want to see cards as they were printed in their respective sets, and maybe check the "next two sets' MRPs" versions.
Right. The addition and removal of key cards really, really changes the environment. Rally/Counterattack are fantastic examples.
Well, Yogo Towers got reverted, and Eternal Halls of the Shiba got nerfed before Jade arc ended. Its wasn't a GE change.
Right.
They were self-contained, if you will.
Haha, but the fact that it got reverted is an example of what im saying
I'm just saying, it's easier to use full MRPs, unless you're REALLY hard core about playing IN the then-existent environment. And what RULES to play with are practically a separate discussion.
That, too.
It's frustrating, because there's no overwhelmingly good way of handling it as-is.
I guess so, but I mean by that logic we couldn't play naga, water monk or shadowlands because they aren't even part of the environment
I'd love to have a couple mil to spare to pick up the license, and pay a few people to go through and clean up the sets and arcs, and re-print them in some capacity, as a nice consistent "reskinning" of the original game.
Cut out the cruft and useless things, and batch the arcs kinda thing.
I don't know what you mean by what you said last.
There's plenty of good gameplay and story there.
Did you miss my edit for clarity? I meant "THEN-exisitent" environment, not currently existent.
Because there's no such thing as currently. π
Well we're playing in our own system currently: Nothing with new borders allowed. So basically through samurai. But it doesn't make sense to apply all the rules from samurai to everything. Meaning like water monk isn't viable or nearly as nostalgic with the new rings for example, naga wouldn't even exist nor shadowlands
There is a Legacy supplement to the most recent Rules to cover things like removed Factions.
Again, the Rules you use is pretty much a separate discussion from the cards you use, MRPs or not.
Yeah, that's a good point.
Just looking at the Rings is huge, because the "supporting cards" are vastly different.
Hrmm.. ok I can go look for that. I just mean the MRPs were printed in a specific environment and therefore not necessarily applicable to all bllock. Like kaede sensei + ring of void is a delightful combo and watermonks are pretty much not viable with new rings.
Right. You have to restrict some of the cards to that block.
Or some of the game is non-functional.
Or, well, viable.
I'll keep checking other people's legacy stuff for more information but it's a kind of a pain and I dont like having to Oracle all my old cards Haha
However, there's also the arguement that tracking when and which wording exists in which block is a pain and using the MRP is just easier. The Rings are the exception to that, in that their versions easy to find and very integral.
That and I have super stylish imperial rings Haha
You can always opt for "Cards are played as printed, no exceptions.", and enjoy the ensuing chaos. π
Couple mil.... If I ever win like a 300 mill jackpot, I'm there too
we play as printed locally. honestly for friendly games it's easier
@saaam Then you get the guy with the Naga Warlord with the misprinted Chi lording it over people.
Let me in that mix! At the very least my writing background will be good flavor texts
It's a pet project I considered before, when I had some time - go through each set starting with Imperial, filter out "flavour" cards, multiplayer cards, and so on, reduce them to a much smaller volume of actually useful cards, modernize the wording, and there you go.
Hrmm.. as printed would be a good idea actually.
Oracle has got the modernized wording already covered, for the most part. π
Might require some changes as needed and could always just restrict certain cards
Thanks guys
Again, though, "as printed" allows for mistakes and ignoring in-arc errata, like Seppun Nakao and Eternal Halls of the Shiba. I'm not a fan.
You can keep a list of "Banned and MRPed Cards So That We Don't Murder Each Otherβ’οΈ".
Honestly it's all for fun right now Do whatever's the funnest for your group
True, I already played Shiba with the change in place.
Answers on: Shiba
I speak from experience on this one doing it with the old old Rage CCG (pre-AEG Across Las Vegas).
Kiyoteru speaks truth. I'm an advocate for broad consistency, but in one's own micorcosm, you can do whatever you all find the most fun.
The game also had "MRPs" and the like, but for fun, we played the cards as printed. Sometimes it was quirky, sometimes it was weird, often it was broken, but everyone had a similar amount of broken.
And if you broaden the card pool enough, you can usually find enough straight up meta to be okay, if someone decides to go overboard. The Sun in Shadow doesn't care about The Wind's Truth's original printing or MRP. Same for Finding the Harmony. Etc.
What I would probably do is play as printed unless someone's playing something that's a real problem and the group can vote it out
Yeah.
That works.
You always end up with some kind of a ban or restricted list, because with enough card variety, some infinite combo will emerge.
In Jade era I ran a series of tournaments that were pretty popular. Basically when someone won everyone else got to vote for one card that person played with that was disallowed for the rest of the league
That's a pretty good way of handling it. Non-Stronghold or Ring, I would hope.
First pick: Ring of the Void. BAM!
Yes not a stronghold ring. I would also recommend playing the rings of the Arc you're in
Second pick: Jade Works.
Third Pick: Superior Tactics.
π
Haha
Those cards tend to hit everyone equally so it wouldn't be a good choice I would think
Seriously, though it would make for a fun environment if you removed some "3x in every deck" cards.
It would change the environment though
You'd get so much more variety in decks. I found that doing smaller tourneys, without "power players" who had 3x every chase rare.
I think the first pick when I was running it was shinsei shrine
"Avoid Fate". Womp womp.
Again, back when every Event resolution was per game, not per player. π
I forget when that changed. :/
Also it had to be something in the winner's deck. It very much forced the good players to keep changing while the less experienced players who maybe didn't have as many cards could feel like they were catching up
Yeah, we've already got a list started of cards we're not allowing. Glad to hear y'all's opinions though!
Yeah, the Unique-per-player thing was annoying.
I get that it's trying to make the game more fair.
But part of the early game was the sheer randomness of it all.
Separate but similar issue to the Event resolution thing. Did those both change at the same time? Can't recall.
Nope.
The Uniqueness thing was pretty early in the game, maybe around Samurai? Lotus? Gold?
Unique per player instead of completely unique is one thing I would probably keep because the race to the rares was something that was much of the time frustrating in the beginning
The whole "Events are now non-Unique and enter play via their text" thing was... later.
The unique change might have been as early as gold
See, I'd split it thematically.
@saaam I wasn't talking about the "Event-abilities" thing, I mean, didn't it used to be that each Event would only resolve once per game, regardless of player? Like if my Inheritance popped before yours, you didn't get yours. That was an early change too, I think.
Whatever is most fun: it would be more fun to me to have a game that runs to completion instead of ends when someone gets to the best unique first
Some things should be Unique-per-player, because, thematically, they make sense. Like Inheritance, Imperial Gift, whatever. Whereas others don't make sense, like both players having the same Unique region in play at the same time. Or the same Unique Clan Champion.
Yeah, that was an early change.
Possibly also as early as Gold. I think I remember Welcome Home being a certainty, rather than a risk.
Yeah, I think that's when that happened. And removing Breach, and a bunch of other contentious cards.
I dunno, in some ways, it feels like L5R should have had two editions/versions/whatever: a "casual" rule set for fun play, local tournaments, and so on, and then a "Kotei" rule set.
It did. It was called "Multiplayer" and "1 v 1". π
Hah.
So unrelated but "big" question for the group: thoughts on how L5R would have worked/played if it had the "discard" pile that got reshuffled when your deck ran out, and the "destroyed" pile for things not coming back once played? So, for example, the Iaijutsu Challenge is played and goes to the destroyed pile, while the focused cards would go into the discarded pile, and so on.
Obviously some card mechanics and design would need updating to make sense, etc., etc.
Game speed usually didn't take you through your whole deck if played well. :/
Yeah, which is what makes me think it's conceptually a relatively easy thing to "implement". It's in the control matchups where you'd want that, to keep things moving, and reduce some of the lock possibilities.
I mean, all I see it really doing is killing a deck built around Abandoning the Fortunes, and there aren't that many of those, are there?
Well, I think it would have some subtle changes in strategy, knowing that a pile of what you discard wouldn't matter as much. E.g. Chasing stuff in your Provinces, or Focusing your hand in duels.
I'm curious what I'm not accounting for.
I think aggressive Dynasty discard and hand optimization are the proper strategies in the normal game; I wouldn't think making what you lose accessible again very late game would alter those choices to a perceptible degree.
Uniques were still one per game in Gold. It may have changed in Diamond. I remember racing for the EXP Ki-Rin's Shrine at the Jersey Kotei in '02.
Had to fight Crane players for Reju, too.
Yup, you're right.
I loved playing Crane in GE, not just because of the Campsite/Come One at a Time BS, but also Reju Exp2 + Armor of Shadows Exp + For the Empire.
But Lippens really ruined Crane players for me.
The Toronto crew was really clique-ish.
So shinjo technique : I'm reading it multiple times and it seems like it can't redirect a lot actions, e.g., duels, blocked supply lines, etc. Am I applying rules correctly?
Answers on: Shinjo Technique, Supply Lines
Because it says "legal target"
You're correct; it has a pretty narrow scope.
Thanks, a few words off from being good Haha
It helps with a few things, but not much. Refugees is probably the biggest one.
Yeah and the favor potentially but pretty limited. Makes sense since it was unicorn specific at the time. I was checking out techniques for ikoma sensei but it's pretty sparse
Indeed it is. Takuan Technique is pretty decent, IIRC.
Tsuruchi and shosoro tech's were both on the list but not quite enough to warrant the sensei over others... would have been if shinjo tech was better
Yeah. If it didn't have to be a legal target (thereby cancelling the original action), it would have been way, way more useful. Probably a little broken, really.
Agreed, not really a good balance point there. Either too good or not good lol
#EarlyL5R
Was this Technique deck out of a Scorpion or Ninja Stronghold? Because Shosuro Technique doesn't work with Ikoma Sensei. Shosuro Technique's is reduced it the peformer is Scorpion or Ninja, not the player, and Ikoma Sensei only makes YOU "look" like the right player, not the Personality itself (so the Sensei also doesn't work with some other Techniques like Daidoji or Deathseeker for the same reason).
Oh ok, well that's unfortunate because it makes it even more useless than I thought lol!
Question: Is lobbying for the favor itself considered Political action? Outmaneuvered by force can cancel a lobby?
yes, it's political player ability
[attachment: unknown.png]
[attachment: printing_5832_5_details.png]
and yes, you can cancel it with outmaneuvered by force
Thank you!
[attachment: Screenshot_20210421-195119_Chrome.jpg]
So im noticing since kihos that only list monk and enlightened? Shujenja can't cast then?
Correct.
Interesting, ok thanks
Monk-only Kiho weren't just an Age of Enlightenment/Lotus thing, though. The first was One with the Elements in Time of the Void, along with others like Karmic Link in Jade era, Palm Strike from Gold, and Drunken Mantis and Fall Before the Master from Diamond. There's also Kiho which ONLY Shugenja can use, like Depths of Jigoku from mid-Diamond, a number of Maho Kiho going all the way back to Honor Bound, and Ancient Knowledge from Spirit Wars which only Spirit Shugenja can perform.
Oh ok, I guess I hadn't noticed them with the exception of dharma technique which I thought was because it was a technique (and each clan had one)
So if a personality says no items can they attach spells? Not sure if spells are considered separate from items
They are two different card types.
Thank you sir! But attachments are everything? Items/ followers/spells?
And Ancestors
Yep. An attachment is any card that attaches to a Personality.
Ah ok, and personalities still have to bow to attach ancestors? And only 1? (Unless otherwise stated)
Yes, they still have to bow definitely. I'd have to look up the Legacy Rules to make sure about the limit, but that sounds right.
Nah, you can have any number of Ancestors
cf Kitsu Sanako
Fun with a Night Medallion
Ah ok! Thanks guys!
Ha. Leave it to the Lion to remember things about Ancestors. π Yeah, no limit.
The first tournament I won was with The Noble Halls of the Akodo
Haha wow that stronghold is very styling!
Do ancestors only attach during limited?
You can attach one as a Reaction to bringing a Personality into play.
They also attach whenever any other attachments attach, depending on the Rules set you're using.
See Shiryo no Ikoma for Fun Abilityβ’οΈ when entering play.
Equipping was Limited most of the game, but they made it Open in Ivory/20F.
Wasn't there an Item that copied another Item?
(Ie so you could have 2x Night Medallion)
Dragon Pearl.
Ancestors represent the spirits of long-gone personalities returned from the grave to assist your Clan. An Ancestor card is an attachment with the following stats: Force Modifier; Chi Modifier; Honor Requirement, which follows the same rules as Follower HR, should you be using that Optional Rule; Gold Cost; Focus Value. All players have the ability, βRepeatable Reaction: After one of your Personalities enters play, Equip a target Ancestor from your hand to him.β - An Ancestor that has a Clan Alignment will only attach to a Personality with that same Clan Alignment, and if its Personality ever loses that Clan Alignment keyword, destroy it. - Ancestors have the requirement to enter play, "Bow the Personality to whom this card is attaching to attach it." - Ancestors will not be transferred. - Like Personalities and Followers, Ancestors perform the actions on them, and may be chosen as the performers of other actions.
All the Ancestor Rules. ^
That's missing some.
They're only destroyed if the Personality is destroyed.
You're saying that they had immunity to attachment destruction? :/
Very cool. One more: How does one transfer an item/ follower/ spell?
Ie if you destroy a unit but an effect prevents the Personality's destruction, any Ancestors are not destroyed.
At least, that was the rule pre-Gold. It may have been scrapped.
I'll have to look up the Diamond Rules on them for last-current.
There was also a rule that they were immune to targeting.
I'm pretty sure I just transcribed those from the last-current.
But I'll double check.
Ie, they could only be chosen as a target if the ability explicitly mentions Ancestors.
Off and on, from Edition to Edition, there was a player ability to swap attachments around, with various restrictions or requirements. In the last Edition, they just got rid of it entirely.
Ok, so just can swap freely during limited? No bowing or anything?
@Alex Jones Dang, you were correct. Per Diamond, Ancestors can't be destroyed unless the Personality is also being destroyed. No targeting restrictions, though. makes a note to add to Legacy Rules when Don starts hosting them
Well, no. They got rid of the ABILITY entirely, not just the restrictions.
Usually, you'd have to bow both source and target Personality. It was pretty onerous, and was better done via card effects.
As of Ivory/20F, you can't do it at all without card effects.
@saaam I believe there was also an iteration where you just had to bow the attachment, but you could only do 1 a turn, or something like that.
Another thing to perhaps add to the Legacy Rules when Don starts hosting them, are all the generational iterations of that "Share" ability as Optional Rules.
Awesome! Thanks guys!
wasnt transfer as rulebook player ability removed in celestial?
Was it one of the Editions before Ivory? Hrm. Yeah, could be.
Or are you saying it was gone in Celestial, back in Emperor, then gone again in Ivory? That's why I said "off and on".
afaik theres no player's "transfer" ability in emperor. it was last time in samurai ruleset.
Hrm. That long without, huh? Well, possibly. I tried to be somewhat vague so as not to be easily called out as inaccurate. π
Haha, well I'll assume it's boy a thing without an ability now guys! Thanks!
[attachment: Screenshot_20210424-171729_Chrome.jpg]
Question: if we're paying multiplayer and he's not attacking me. Can he steal my attachment s from my personalities in my home
No. The Rule of Location says that if a Battle ability is on a card in a unit, the unit has to be at the current battlefield to be used.
Thanks!
Hrmmm.. so my friends are wondering about this specific card, cause it says "another player." So it seems like he could target my personalities. But they don't have the opportunity to defend
I'm not sure what you're asking now? :/
Sooo we're playing 3 player: He's attacking in a raid with that personality against the third player. I cannot defend (or oppose him). Can his ability steal my personalities attachments?
Ah, yes, he can. They didn't really design cards for multiplayer balance or interactions at that time of the game's life.
Ah ok thanks
Seems broken though Haha
Well, he can only do it once per battle. :/ The other player is sort of consciously abetting the combo by not inviting you to ally to, too.
Haha true, we're ruthless
Is kachikos kiss considered "in play" for purposes of shrine of the sun
Answers on: Shrine of the Sun
?
No. "In play" means it literally put itself into play.
Gotcha, that's what I thought but it was worth clarifying! Thanks!
For Events like Commanding Favor (or like 90% of the Ivory ones, but as a contemporary example).
Yes, gotcha
Couple rules questions for you guys please :) 1) for enough talk: does that only with when someone lobbies or uses an action that specially says political?
2) are only personalities with "unaligned" keyword considered unaligned? Or any personality without clan affiliation?
E.g.., lots of shadowlands guys
1. Every action in the Oracle should be proper labled "Political" if it is, and only those, yeah.
2. Any Personality without a Faction alignment is Unaligned.
Ironically there are a lot of unaligned personalities with factions
Ah, ok so most shadowlands would be considered unaligned... One more
That inconsitency was eventually removed, but yeah, a bunch in Clan War/Jade era.
Are all undead considered human unless otherwise noted?
Yep.
Ok thanks!
So does the game keep "history" of various factions that existed at one point in time, or does that "expire" when the arcs rotated? For example, Ninja Shapeshifter. Is it Unaligned in anything but Jade?
Depends on what Rules you're playing by. If you're doing arc-simulation, then Ninja isn't a Faction outside of Jade, but if you're playing a more "Open" set, and using the Legacy Rules along with the last Comprehensive, then everything that ever was a Faction is considered one.
exception: Hare and Imperial are only Factions when someone is using their Strongholds.
Ah ok noted! What about the other tiny clans without strongholds. Like wasp let's say
A Clan/Faction alignment is only one of the ones that got Strongholds. Anything else that seems like one technically isn't, so they'd be Unaligned.
Awesome. Thanks again for answering all my quirky questions. My friends making an undead shadowlands deck and had questions!
Sepulcher of Bone? I really like that box.
Yeah! Really styling and using "wrath of the people" event... which is extra stinky in there
Answers on: Wrath of the People
Sadly, back in Strict Jade, there weren't that many Undead Personalities.
Lots of Followers.
Yeah. Basic Moto Tsume, technically and stupidly not Undead.
But can be made to commit Remorseful Seppuku!
So there's that. He'll Marry a Barbarian, too.
Oh didn't realize tsume not undead Haha!
Easy to overlook; that's why I mentioned.
Only the Exp2/Exp3 versions are Undead, and only the Exp2 is in the Jade arc.
Β―\_(γ)_/Β―
Also, there's a Gold/Diamond-arc Event that auto-destroys the Sepulcher of Bone. "No Mercy". Look it up and laugh.
Youch. Iris Festival 2: Di Harder!
Only works on the Sepulcher, though. The other SLH boxes don't ever lose Honor.
Right. But it takes out any corrupt deck, too, if they're not careful.
Yeah. Catacombs Scorpions are like, "So much for my safety net." π
So, unrelated question.
Anyone know of any decklists for The Shadow's Lair?
Not I, sorry. I don't think that Stronghold was a very popular one, of the many available in EmpE.
Exactly. Googling hasn't helped so far.
So, with new unaligned rules: Wave men event and wrath of the people essentially work the same for the undead deck right? Are yoritimo alliance and toturis army are considered "clan affiliations" (I assume they are obviously)
Answers on: Wrath of the People
Well, with new or old Unaligned rules, Wave Men works the same for everyone, and Wrath would work with most, if not all, Undead the same. And yes, YA and TA are Clan Alignments.
Ok thanks, just needed to clarify π
There was TSL swarm (by Andrew Ornatov) at the end of Samurai.
@kempy_nezumi TSL was an EmpE box. :/
Oh, you mean the OTHER TSL?
Shiwan was asking about The Shadow's Lair, not The Spider's Lair.
Ah, i confused Strongholds. Btw there was Ninja/Weapon 546 deck in Emperor. Popularized by Sparks.
In my Dropbox - Decks/Emperor/ SP-TSL-GoC... decks. GoC means it contains cards from Gates of Chaos so its one of the final versions for this edition.
It its movement deck. Just throw out all defenders from the battle and move in one or two high force weapon equipped ninja(s).
TSL is really versatile SH. Most common trick is to use it as Spearhead for youe gus, as you can assign two or more guys and then return home one of your personalities (as you can target anyone with sh ability).
and you can repeat it on all battlefields same attack phase
TSL was a hard matchup for late arc Lion blitz (this one that could eat two Provinces on turn two). Personally i was using silver bullet - Interference + event that could search for political strategy.
Theres also TSL deck for Modern.
Well timed Interference is a death sentence for TSL (also for Ninjas in Legacy).
Wow, Interference is worse than Storms of War.
and you can also fetch it with this
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Ugh.
There was also temporarily faceless honor out of TSL
yep, there's Aftermath era version in my dropbox as well
even if contains M'rika and Paneki's Mask - it's not "combo" version as it was nerfed earlier.
ah, my fault - it's no faceless version - it's just honor crawl ;/
Yeah, there was also a pure faceless one that was a miserable play experience mid-arc
second wave of emperor bans removed faceless (dis)honor decks
only "faceless" deck in the end of the arc was fotm token blitz, this one that won euros
That box needs a "This ability may not be removed or negated by card effects." or similar.
It already had will not be negated from a rider
Right, but it needs the prevention of ability removal.
It did not need that
It does, because the prevention is only in effect during Battle, while Interference is Open.
I am aware - having played through Emperor, it did not need that clause to be effective
So question: Can reaction abilities that do not bow be used more than one time per turn?
I understand that battle, open, etc.. are assumed only once but reactions seems different
If they're Lotus-legal or later, no. Before Lotus-legal, ANOTPT by default, BUT you can only react once per trigger. Make sense?
Yes, so toku butaka specifically could react 1x per time he's targeted correct?
Answers on: Toku Butaka
Nope, that's Lotus. OPT.
Ok, so he can only use the reaction 1x/turn then
Yep.
Ok thanks!
For akifumi (the monk who gives enlightenment) Is that permanent? Or until end of turn
If it doesn't state a duration, then end of turn.
And regarding the reaction ability, just one more follow up: If we were playing under lotus rules or later: Then reactions would be 1x/ instance of being targeted
You mean specifically for Butaka? Either Rules set, he can only React once for any one instance of being targeted. However, because he's from Lotus, his ability is also Once Per Turn by default.
Oh, ok. So if it's not 1x/turn, it has to specifically say so? (E.g. toku exp 3)
If you're talking the Oracle, yes it should specifically say if it's different than Once Per Turn (OPT). However, even Toku can only use that Reaction once per time he's targeted, not pop it off as many times as he wants just from 1 targeting. If you follow?
Yes. But he can do it multiple times per turn specifically because it says he can
On different instances that is
Yes, he can use it any number of times per turn (ANOTPT), because the Oracle says he can, because that's how the Rules were when he was printed.
Gotcha, ok thanks again! Good clarification
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π
Ok, so two more: 1) with toku butaka then does the -1 chi exhaustion token go away at end of turn since it doesn't specifically say permanent?
2) can you use a formation as your naval action: E.g., three storms
3) once the formation is in play can you use it more than once?
Tokens are permanent.
So it stays on him until death, or an effect removes them, like Slap the Wave.
For 2), no, since I believe through most of the game's life Naval required the action to come from a Naval card, or be performed explicitly by a Naval card, like a duel.
For 3), yes, since it says so in its text that it's any number of times per turn (as per updated wording template).
Ok awesome. I thought tokens were permanent but wanted to check
Ok, so is there a limit on using the formation ability?? Like once it's in play you can use the ability as many times as you want? Are there good ways to remove formations?
As it says: While you meet the conditions to put this card into play, you have the ability, "Battle: Any number of times per turn, choose your performing Pirate Personality and target an attachment controlled by the Defender: Transfer it to the Pirate, even if illegal."
So you can stop it by causing the player who played it to no longer meet its conditions.
So send-home, duel, destruction, etc.
Okay gotcha! Formations are really powerful!
Depending on the card pool, there may be cards that specifically target it.
Enh.
Not really.
Any kind of send-home nukes that one. Which is why it gives you a freebie after you play it.
Yeah, I was considering clarifying, but ongoing effects have a default end of turn duration, but instant effects, such as bowing/dishonoring/creating cards or tokens don't have a duration.
Very helpful guys! So many cool new cards we're discovering!
Are formations like a terrain? Can only 1 be in play per battle? Or cab each player have a formation in play?
Each player can have one. They took Formation rules out of the Rules, so I modified every card in the Oracle to encapsulate all their rules in their own text.
Yeah, they were more gimmicky than anything else. Hard to meet and keep requirements in some cases, so hard to balance well.
Agreed. Direct Assault was just about the best one, and Invincible Legions had degenerate combos that I can't recall if they ever fixed.
Ah, yeah, they fixed the degenerate combo with errata to the other card that made it work.
Ah ok, totally makes sense with 1 each! Perfect!
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