Messages from the Oracle of the Void #l5r Discord channel, copied for Oracle of the Void. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings and the rulebooks may differ.
Just got here, excited to try Sun and Moon I'm most comfortable with 20F Extended, does Ivory Extended cover all Emperor cards or only ivory legal ones?
Anyone got an opinion on Ivory Ex vs 20F Ex in terms of general balance, cohesion and deck building?
Are Modern and Legacy the most popular formats?
Theoretically Ivory Extended includes all Emperor cards. Thats why i have never seen anybody playing it. :D
Ha that's a lotta cards. Might give it a try but it'll be a while
Its more about compability. Mixing cards with different rulesets and power level.
Oh kay. I'll stick with 20F Ex for now then. Thanks eh. Think Blackest Storm is usable?
Theres no Blackest Storm in official SnM database.
But should I dream of the day if and when?
There exist fanmade databases with TBS but both players must have identical databases.
There are even databases with base Onyx and Onyx/Reign of Jigoku
Anyway there also exist Sun and Moon Discord
Thank you. Reign of Jigoku? I'm finding a tournament with you(?) in it. Are there other unofficial/leaked sets?
The Blackest Storm (finalized), base Onyx set (nearly finalized), Hidden Forest War (nearly finished, Onyx Learn to Play, Spider vs Naga), Reign of Jigoku (playtest), Road to Ruin (pre playtest).
Oh wow! You're on it. Thanks a bunch
So for those who've tried both, which played better in Draft - the CE-style Shrine of Lady Sun (and attendant package), or EEs Governor's Estate?
Gov estate
Eliminating getting gold-screwed is big
imho Ivory Draft -> other editions
If you use gold pooling, go Ivory draft/stronghold with Ivory/Twenty Festivals expansions.
For classic gold and pre-Ivory expansions, go Emperor era drafting
Governors Estate is better for pre-Ivory stuff because very often lack og holdings in common slots
In Ivory+ expansions boosters there are lot of holdings, and 8 or 10 starting gold allows to buy Personality + holding first turn or even 3 cards in various combinations
Would just giving a package of useful holdings like with Shrine of the Lady Sun be better? And I'm building my own draft environment using mtg boosters as a model, so at a minimum there'd be one holding per pack
i think that for your cube-like drafting you should avoid blank free gold holdings or holdings with better production than cost (like clan holdings)
just include holdings with abilities, 2 for 2 preffered. of course it will screw Lion (as always). ivory era has lot of 3for3 holdings with abilities or effects as well
Ironically, I was considering putting them in as draft signals - and yeah, the package I was looking at is Family library, barley farm, brilliant artisan, akodos grave, and one of the 1:1 Kharmic holdings, but I'll poke at it more
Thanks for the information everyone
Brilliant artisan? Replace it at least with Spirit's Essence Dojo
I would except it has a completely different layout than the older holdings - since it's new players, trying to avoid having the explain the confusion of "some holdings gold production is listed in the box and some are in the upper right"
If it proves a problem I'll just replace it with something innocuous like Second City Dojo, Rich Coffers, or hell Famous Bazaar
When Kitsu Tamao, Kitsu Suzaki or Kagako Sensei create a spirit personality, may I choose to proclaim the spirit? May I double interrupt with Tamao and Kagako to generate two spirits?
Create isnt Recruit, so no Proclaim.
About Tamao and Kagako. Yes, you may use both Interrupts to same Recruit.
Thanks for clarifying
From CR
Can I ignore targets in my discard when playing Ritual of Naming? It tells me to search my discard, then my my deck.
I believe you have to choose one of the Onis in discard first, and then, if there are none, you may seach your Dynasty deck for any Oni. @Brook Cunningham
But i'm not sure, just wait for answer from MacBeth2001
I suppose that order may be written this way to avoid situation, you search your Dynasty first only for reshuffling, becasue you know it will fail.
eg when all of your onis are in discard pile already
@kempy_nezumi You were correct at the start. The "Search" rules in the CR say that, when searching multiple areas, you have to say if you found any of the card in the first area, and if you did, the search procedure ends before going to the next area.
I'll learn to read and ref. one of these years, thanks for your time and the ruling
I'm seeing a lot of single copies of the Forgotten Legacy holding in these 20F deck lists. Can I just pay the recruit cost and the legacy discard even if the holding isn't visibly in my provinces?
Thats the point of Forgotten Legacy holding. You may search it from your deck. Just read its text in Oracle + reminder.
(Once per turn as a Dynasty, remove a card in your hand from the game to search your deck and Provinces for a Legacy Holding and Recruit it.) You must have at least 16 Holdings in your deck construction.
Unforseen Cost doesn't cover proclaiming right? Does it cover strategies like Favors or just events, kata, items, dynasty cards ect?
Proclaiming Honor is from the Rulebook, not the card. And Strategies don't (typically) enter play, so Unforeseen doesn't hit them either.
Okay. Thank you.
Was akeha sensei from the unreleased sets?
We're wondering if we're missing something while playing the following deck:
Legality: Twenty_Festivals The Shadowed Estate of the Scorpion Akeha Sensei
From a deck called SC TBS Dishonor Vs K found among the 20f decks in provided in the drop box lists
I don't remember that Sensei
we're not finding anything in basic searches on google or oracle
May not exist
It is the blackest storm!
Yo, good find, sorry for the trouble
Neat
Man, that Sensei would have been utterly hilarious in Clan Wars.
The Blackest Storm expansion was never printed. It only exists as PDFs that were fully ready to go to the printer, but the game was sold to FFG before that happened.
Lion dropping first turn Shijin full. Yay 6FH/7FH boxes.
Akeha Sensei sets starting Family Honor at 5.
Oh, yeah. I even RTFCed and missed that.
TBS in decks name means that most latest set used is The Blackest Storm. Same for other acronyms like ThA, EP - there's no newer cards in such deck than from Thunderous Acclaim or Evil Portents and so on.
does the force/chi modifier on followers mean something different if there’s a + or not? https://oracleofthevoid.com/#game=l5r,%23cardid=4731
adding image since link doesn’t seem to work
A plus (or minus) in a Follower's Force or Chi means that the attached Personality's Force or Chi is modified by that amount.
hmm so that must impact ranged attacks and such
Well, the Follower still has their own Force, which is equal to the bonus.
However, when calculating the unit's force, the Follower's force isn't counted.
so for a card like this https://oracleofthevoid.com/#game=l5r,#cardid=4516
does it have its own force? or just a modifier
or is that just a print error
Because its force is +1 (rather than 1), it adds its force to its Personality's force.
This is relevant if the Personality is in a duel, or is targeted by some other action or effect that checks the Personality's force.
The Follower doesn't contribute force to the army, or to the unit, directly - it does so by modifying the Personality's force.
It means that the Follower's force will count even if it is bowed (if the Personality is unbowed, anyway).
interesting, thank you for the clarification
np
been digging around 20F CR but was unable to find a clear answer for this.
If I currently control the favor, does lobbying discard it from my control > go to an uncontrolled state > before I take it or will it just stay under my control the whole time?
I believe the lobby action says discard the imperial favor. (Was getting claiming the favour and using it switched)
only mentioned take the favor from the 20f CR
Oh, I get the question. The favour doesn't enter the uncontrolled zone when lobbying for it from another player.
It's the same as trying to give a card a keyword that already has that keyword. It doesn't lose its current copy of the keyword and gain a new one; the giving effect just fails because it already has it. Likewise, the effect of taking the Favor from Lobbying fails because, in the scenario you describe, you already have it.
Hang on, so you can play a card that punishes for failing to gain the Favour, even if you have it and retain it after Lobbying?
I mean, sure, but why would you Lobby for it if you already have it?
Kyuden otomo
Well, in the case of Kyuden Otomo, if the taking the Favor effect is substituted with the gaining a token effect, then the Lobby action didn't fail, even if you already had the Favor. I can't think offhand, and I'm failing to find via search, what Shiwan may be referring to as punishments for Lobbying/gaining the Favor failing.
Well, in older rules, you could Lobby again and pith a Fate card to increase your FH temporarily. Or you could bow multiple people, etc.
There's occasionally a useful reason.
There are card effects that make it fail too
Ok, but I'm still wondering what punishment cards you're talking about?
Though, regardless of what they are, if I take it as a given that such exist, I can think of no beneficial reason to Lobby when you have the Favor, thus failing to take it and leaveing yourself open to such punishments. That said, in regard to Kiyoteru bringing up Kyuden Otomo, it would depend on how such punishments were worded if Kyuden Otomo hurts itself on them or not, which is why I'm wondering what they are specifically?
Welp, I was wrong, there's nothing that punishes failing to lobby. At least not with new wording templates.
I could have sworn there was something in the Jade Era (give or take) that did.
You could also want to Lobby, even if you have the Favour, if there's something forcing you to attack and you only have one Personality in play that's unbowed, and no other means to bow them.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Ah, sure, that's one. So, yeah, if there are no punishment cards, then I guess there's no risk in doing it, but at the same time, very little reason TO do it.
Also, Armor of the Crane Exp. is useful. So I'd want to Lobby even if I have the Favour, to gain that +1 FH.
Kitsu Toju Exp. would also like to join the chat.
"After a Lobby action is announced by the player with the highest Family Honor, [...]"
I guess he doesn't say that that player controls it, just has the highest Honour.
Nah, he doesn't really care, and his utility is to try to prevent the Highest Honor player from just auto-getting it. However, he only works with Classic Lobbying.
I miss Classic Lobbying. It was so much fun in mirror matches.
Even in non-mirror matches, sometimes it would add another layer of strategy.
It's in the Legacy optional Rules, but looking at it, I need to tweak the wording just a hair, whenever Kiyoteru starts hosting Rules docs on the Oracle.
Hey, speaking of. Rewording on Imperial Levelling. You now... gain Honour equal to each Unit destroyed if it's more than one?
Because original printing was a doozie when you wiped a board full of 3F Units and they only gained 3 Honour for their trouble.
Hrm. I don't really agree with that interpretation. The final sentence assumes only 1 unit, but so does the first except for the paranthetical. It seemed to me that the intent of sentence 2 was to give honor for the unit destroyed, but it would be each in ties.
Actually, no, the second sentence specifically refers to mulitples.
Right, if I lose a 3F Unit and you lose a 3F Unit, we each gain 3 Honour. However, if we each lose a dozen 3F Units, we should each only gain 3 Honour. At least per the intent of the original printing.
Totally random, was digging through SL set for something when I noticed the update.
Is there a contemporary Ruling/FAQ to cite on that one?
Because I don't interpret the second sentence the way you are, even from a straight reading. I certainly intended my Oracle rewording to be clearer, but still functionally the same.
Uh, card itself. Second sentence says "Equal to the Force of the unit.", not "Equal to the Force of the UnitS."
But there is no "the unit" in the case of multiples being destroyed.
There was never an entry in the Accumulated Rulings about it. The local groups always played it as singular.
Hmm. Interesting. I mean, I'm not opposed to it, since it doesn't matter these days, but it's an interesting "swing" on a card.
Back in the day™, that card won, and lost, many a games around that.
Yeah, I can't speak to intent or rulings either, but grammatically, because the sentence starts with "The units' controller(s)" with a plural "units", the later reference in the same sentence to "the unit" implicitly refers to each of the previous plurals. If you follow?
Yeah. It's awkwardly worded, because there's so many possible scenarios with it.
Awkward wording; a hallmark of the classics. 🙂
It made it fun.
And by fun I mean argumentative.
One man's pain... etc etc, as they say.
Looking at the original wording, I think the event gives honour to controller of each unit that is destroyed.
So if I lose 10 3f units, I gain 30 honour.
Thank you for agreeing with me! 🙂
It would be nicer to word as "Each player gains Honour equal to the total amount of Force from Units they controlled which were destroyed by this Event's effect."
Or something like that.