If you recruit another copy of Nae, can they both respond, or is it only after she recruits herself?
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Onyx Lives #rules-questions
Messages from the Onyx Lives #rules-questions Discord channel, copied for Oracle of the Void. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings and the rulebooks may differ.
"Nae" is self referencing. She only triggers from herself, not other Nae
That was what I thought.
She would be better if she triggered off all Nae's
More broadly, the general Rule is that any card that names itself in its text is only referring to itself, unless it explicitly calls out "any/another copy of".
Yeah I just felt like she was quite weak that way. Which is why I asked.
but it's a legacy body
so... maybe that will offset it
UHHHH, SHE PUREDY STRONG || legacy ||
Yeah thats her only strong feature... a searchable body lol
you are still banishing a card from hand to do it
and late game thats not great
So, can they copy from a card that does not have a boldface keyword? Does the target have to have all 3?
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The only targeting requirement is that they be non-Unique and Phoenix. Any of the copy effects can fail.
Yet another non-unique Clan Champion, what the heck is Phoenix doing over there.
It's the same one as before. Just with an image now!
And the first time was a reference, this time I guess is a reference to a reference, and is a bit fitting.
the other one had like.. 4 honor
and was blind
5 honor
even worse
And it is a reference to the first Phoenix clan champ card, which was mistakenly printed without Unique, so that was jsut ran with.
We all know it's because the phoenix don't have anyone special lol
Does Doji Meiji work if his owner doesn't have a Wind? I.e. the opponent would also need to be Windless to Lobby
Answers on: Doji Meiji
Tsukimi is the ONLY Clan Champion for Phoenix. The rest are just people to fill a spot... Tsukimi, please come back from the dead... Even as a Zombie you would still be the best... Why you had to die 😭 😭 😭 ??????
Answers on: Zombie
No, Meiji's trait does not work if you have no Wind; "your Wind" implies that you have one. If Meiji's player has no Wind to compare your (or your lack of) Wind to, then then his trait cannot prevent you Lobbying.
The consummate sycophant.
Meiji has to be backing a horse to have any real power
To be fair to Tamashii, he not that far past his gempukku, and he has to follow in the footsteps of arguably one of the most famous phoenix champions in history
I think Tsukimi is one of the characters in the game with more versions and one of the champions who lasted more editions
Is committing seppuku considered an action that destroys the personality?
What's the context
Usually seppuku is "rehonor, then destroy this personality"
Right, but I didn't know if it was considered part of an action or a trait or what
No; if an action makes a Personality seppuku, the destruction does not come from that action. Effects that have procedures in the Rulebook come from the Rulebook (such as gaining Honor from Proclaiming a Recruit, even if the Recruit was an effect of an on-card action).
So if I wheels within wheels, the destruction of the personality is not coming from an action?
Right.
I am not really following why that is the case
There's an explicit Rule in the CR that says so (top of page 79):
"If a card effect creates a procedure, effects written in the rulebook that are part of the procedure come from the rulebook.
There are... ...exceptions: •Targeting and effects of Fear effects, Ranged Attacks and Melee Attacks come from the card that created the Fear, Ranged Attack or Melee Attack, not the rulebook."
So, note that the seppuku procedure is very like a Fear, Melee, or Ranged; its procedures and effects are in the rulebook. However, unlike Fear, Melee, and Ranged, seppuku has no explicit exception to this Rule, ergo.... etc etc.
But it's just a defined term... like unbowing/straightening... or opposed... it's a word that has an effect of procedure that you do... the action is still causing you to enact the defined term.
It's not just a single term/effect, though. It is a procedure consisting of two steps, not unlike the targeting and then resolution of a Ranged Attack: "Rehonor the Personality, then destroy him; these effects cannot be negated."
It is a term that applies effects
Where is "procedure" defined?
Like... wouldn't the "procedure" simply be something like... if a card effect tells me to dishonor a card, the procedure is to turn that personalty upside down as a way to signify that they are dishonorable?
I will admit, "procedure" is not rigidly defined, but I would take it to mean "consisting of multiple rulebook-based steps". It is "commit seppuku"'s very similarities to "Ranged 3 Attack", in that multiple rulebook-based effects are carried out by a single shorthand phrase, coupled with the latter having an explicit exception to the "From" rules while the former does not, that brings us to this conclusion.
Ok, I just went through the rulebook to try and define procedure, I see what you are saying.
I personally think Seppuku should be part of the action, rather than being an effect emanating from the rulebook... but I see the argument.
Its weird that in the rulebook an action is an initiated procedure, but a procedure like seppuku isn't an action lol
What does a melee/ranged/fear attack do? I saw where it was defined, but it didn't say what it actually does.
Not sure where you would've seen it defined but missed what it does?
Page 88 on the 20F Comprehensive Rules document: "“Ranged X Attack”, where X stands for a number, is shorthand for the text, “Target a Follower or a Personality without Followers in the current enemy army. If its Force is equal to or less than X, destroy it.”"
Melee is the same. Fear is similar, but it bows instead of destroys.
In the Onyx Edition Rules Datasheet
Thank you, though!
Yep; same document I quoted. 🙂 No problem; it is a bit big and unweildy.
Oooh. The Datasheet is mostly Supplemental to the full Rules.
Ah, I just hadn't gotten to it yet in the comprehnsive rules. Thank you kindly!
I'm used to thumbing the massive swccg compendium so this'll be no sweat.
I feel like the number one rule i always need to refresh is 'how does dueling work in this moment' :^)
Why is Hida Jzo? Izo? IT's Jzo in the deckbuilder but Izo on the card - in red on my decklist but the other cards are black?
Not really a question for "Rules". Try "Sun and Moon" channel?
Sorry
that's mostly a font thing, it's definitely Izo
Might I suggest either updating the text on Akodo Nojima xp to "Set"
or update the rulebook/onyx lives rules to add a definition of "is"
If "Is" sets a stat, then it should be defined.
Sohsi Rei, Obstructor and Goju Kaxt interaction: I am assuming that the force bonus from Kaxt doesn't apply until after my units are assigned (ie: they are already in my army and then the force bonus applies) when I attack with Rei, otherwise the force bonus from Kaxt has the potential to prevent them from assigning if their force is higher than their chi. Please let me know?
Answers on: Goju Kaxt
I do believe you're right in your assumption, the bonus is applied to the army, which doesn't exist until after assigning Personalities to battlefields, iirc
Marcus's answer is mostly accurate (they said "to the army" but meant, more precisely "while in the army") and quite correct, if one is asking about someone with Kaxt attached assigning to defend against Rei. But also note, as it appears you're asking about assigning with Soshi Rei in her own army, she won't prevent anyone assigning with her regardless of their Force or Chi. Assigning to the same army happens simultaneously, so Rei isn't "attacking" and her trait isn't "turned on" until everyone who assigned to her same army is also already there, thus she doesn't/can't prevent them coming along.
Thanks this helps a lot!
Another Famous NUE suggestion.
I personally think it's a bit odd that a "stat" of a created personality is 0 unless otherwise noted.
If I create a personality, it should have a base cost = to the gold cost used to create it...unless otherwise specified.
Like... paying 6 gold for a personality, that has no listed gold cost, just to have the opponent like a twig it with a 3 cost seems bad.
It makes more sense to me if it's not stated that it's gold cost equals the action cost used to pay for it.
If that rule changes, what's stopping one of "overpaying " the creating person to be 16g, then doing the same to you via [twig], or being too costly to kill with [hired killers]?
Overpaying doesn't change a normal person's gold cost, why would it change a created person's
thats a weird argument
Arent you suggesting "...it should have a base cost = to gold cost used to create it..." ?
yes, used to create it... so yobanjin raids is 6, it would be 6 gold cost
= to required costs, maybe?
So, once again, my argument, which is not weird, what's stopping me from paying 10g from [raid] to make it 10g, per your suggestion?
weird suggestion...again...
thats not what I was saying
I was saying the cost
MEBBE, I AM WEIRDDDDDD
not overpaying
No... just the cost of the action... over paying = floating golf
gold
https://tenor.com/view/wwe-you-know-something-maybe-i-am-insane-insane-crazy-gif-5089053
Well, it can mean floating gold. But it could also mean heavily investing into a card. I see both. For clarity sake, equal to the cost of the action. Could be clearer, less misinterpreted.
...
Honestly... sometimes I think you all do this just to confuse me
Floating golf is fun
The GC is (6), how can you pay more than the GC without something like "Invest" that increases the GC?
GC for the action, that is
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Can she bow a bowed cavalry personality?
It doesn't say "unbowed"
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Because the bowing effect is linked to the subsequent effects with "to", it must happen in order for the other effects to happen.
Not following
The word "to" before "give" means the effects after "to" are conditional upon the previous effect actually happening.
I am still not following, are you saying that she can't target a bowed person?
if so she should probably say "bow your target unbowed cavalry personality to..."
She can, but if they don't bow, then none of the effects after "to" will happen.
wouldn't just adding "unbowed" fix the problem?
It's not a problem.
It is for me
which is why I said that
Otherwise it's just action generation for no reason
the only reason to do that at that point would be to interrupt it with some effect, or to not pass to the next phase
Prior to Ivory, this would have been a constraints type cost. "Battle: Bow your target X: Do Y."
Since Ivory, it has been worded conditionally like this, "Bow your X to do Y". Prior to constraints' introduction in Lotus, it was also like this.
I get it, and I think there was some merit to "costs" of things.
It definitely helped people to understand what was what.
But yes, without constraints costs, the post Ivory and pre Lotus way, you technically can announce the action, target a bowed Personality, and have all of it fail. Enjoy your Philosopher Holding. 🙂
Philosopher Holding?
Is there a call out for oracle cards?
[Philosopher]
Basically an old holding with an action that said Open (Bow): Do nothing, this does not count as passing
Ah
Yeah just a priority passer
which, to be fair is a fine strategy when you want the opponent to do something and know if you take an action they will override it or something
Oh, right, because of old formatting it was Battle/Open: Do nothing
Generally not worth the slot because you could use cards that, y'know, did something heh
hell to be honest, that's one of the most beneficial things about honesty is you want the opponent to do something, so you use honesty to effectively "pass not pass"
It's a possible strategy yes
Yeah, with tireless I could see it being useful
but having to bow it is rough
unless it was free with renew... then it'd be useful
Then it would be how the old Honesty Event was
yep
and old windless event