Messages from the Onyx Lives #rules-questions Discord channel, copied for Oracle of the Void. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings and the rulebooks may differ.
random question, looking to play some onyx with my friends as we are pulling back into some l5r hype. is it correct that in onyx edition there are no clan holdings legal? like shinomen forest for spider, silver mine for phoenix, marketplace for crane? just checking as we are deckbuilding in sun and moon and they aren't listed as legal under the onyx legality tag
Correct
I apologies I am likely going to have a lot of questions in the foreseeable future to get some clarifications. Mishime sensei's trait says - you do not lose honor from your cards effects. I believe this just basically says you do not lose honor from your own cards right, like you can still lose honor from others actions but if I recruited Akuma I would not lose the honor from them entering play etc
Pretty much accurate. It specifies "cards' effects" rather than "from your cards" just for excess of clarity, to preemptively head-off questions like, "But what if my guy refuses a duel with an Honor loss penalty for refusal?" or "But what if my guy dies dishonorably?" But those aren't "from your card" anyway; they're from the duel action and Rulebook respectively.
thankyou for the clarification and additional information. that is helpful 🙂
Just out of curiosity do you know what prompted the change? I am totally good with it...I just couldn't remember any glaring issues with the previous timing but I assume that there was some sort interaction which busted things.
Reactions were designed in such a way that they could trigger off of literally anything -- actions being taken, the end of a battle phase, etc.
With Ivory Edition, there was a conscious move to make "reactive actions" require an original action to trigger from. The first iteration, Interrupts ("during the action"), turned out to have some non-intuitive timing and other flaws, and when Onyx Edition was being worked on originally by AEG Design, Responses were going to be added to fill the hole of the "after the action" timing window.
The worst is when reactions trigger in the middle of another action currently taking place, and then make a whole new action on top of what's happening.
And... By worst, I really mean best, because I love that kinda stuff.
But yeah... Not having distinct points of contact means it's really hard to do anything about missing a trigger.
Like... If you play a duel that causes honor loss, and then someone reacts with a political card to negate that honor loss, and then someone reacts to duel them, and the first duel hasn't even fully resolved yet.
The change was a good idea. But... It does make it feel like something could be lacking.
I mean, Interrupts and Responses do lack the versatility of Reactions, but as was said, it makes for easier to track interactions.
I totally see that, I was just curious about the why something changed...but overall I agree having specific timing windows is much easier...
It was just something that stood out to me and made me wonder for a moment.
It makes sense why a change was made...
There was also an underlying notion behind a number of changes going into Ivory, especially the removal of Reactions for Interrupts, that a digital version of the game (akin to things like Magic's Arena, not like Sun and Moon here) may have been a future endeavor, and such changes might make it easier to program.
Oh that never occured to me. Making things easier for digital is really important these days...
temple of geisei toshi, its open action says look at the top 4 cards and name a thing. do you then shuffle after or just put the cards back on top in any order?
additionally can the spider stronghold target a personality in a persons graveyard to combo with festering pit of fu leng?
Don't do either of those things. Put them back on top in the same order you found them.
cool cool, thought it was that way but with sun and moon is a bit of a pain to remeber the order if you right click to look and accidentally rearange them
No such thing as a "graveyard" in L5R. 😉 Now that I have my pedantry out of the way, you also can't target things that are out of play unless the card text specifically allows it.
You don't have to shuffle? Now that's interesting...
You do if you "search" your deck. Not if you just "look" at some of it.
ok cool, that makes the festering pit of fu leng less enticing 😦 still a solid holding but not great.
Awesome!!!
if a card with honesty is activated (face uo) and you discard it for some cost, if you have a way to put it back into your hand, does it stay face up or does it get flipped back over?
Cards enter your hand face-down by default from whatever area they enter.
There's no difference between an Honesty card in the discard pile from any other.
as a random question before i begin to play some games with friends, is there a ban/ restricted list for onyx anywhere?
No bans. A few errata, but the digital database is up to date with all changes.
cool cool, just checking 🙂 if i have the database and image sets from the onyx lives google drive we should be good right?
Pretty sure, yep. 🙂
additional question. the winds, they do not say to bow a personality to lobby like the rulebook lobby, is this correct or do you still need to bow to take the imperial favor?
They're correct as written; no hidden implicit guy-bowing.
cool cool, just checking to make sure we are getting rules right, really like the winds as it lets me as a spider player actually use the bloody thing 😛
you should also download the rules data sheet
one question about interrupts, can I play an interrupt to an action even if the interrupt won't do anything? For example, can I play Unyielding Stance as in interrupt of an action that doesn't move my Personality?
about this Personality and her action, can I target a personality that is already honorably dead?
Yup.
I use that all the time with her.
Even says in brackets (even if already dead)
yes, but I thought that the explanation in brackets addressed the possibility of the personality being dishonorabily dead
the way her ability is written and how I interpreted it gave me the idea that she uses discarded and dishonorabily dead personalities as fuel to give bonuses
Reminder text is often inspecific shorthand, not meant to make hard rulings based upon.
In most cases, yes you can Interrupt any action. If Unyielding Stance could only Interrupt an action that was going to move your Personality, it would be worded with an "If" clause. Abilities that start with "If" can only be taken in those circumstances. So, in that hypothetical case, it would be, "Interrupt: If your target Personality could be moved by the action, negate that movement."
The legal mantis personalities of 20F, ThA and EP are considered unaligned?
When playing black-bug arc legality, yes.
we have a current query with somthing we havn't really dealt with before.
card memory and Discipline if a strategy card has been played once in a battle does it remeber being played and thus cannot be used again or does discipline alow a card to be used again in the same battle?
it cannot be used again, unless it's Repeatable
"Cross Blades" and "Seeking the Void" are the only 2 examples of this, with both being Onyx legal, but only the former being ShE legal
great thanks 🙂
with this card, do you need to straighten to trigger the second effect?
like could you straighten an already straight card to allow you to banish and send home another card with a -1 force token on them?
Doesn't appear so to me but what do I know
Yep.
I believe it would say "your target opposed bowed card" otherwise
Yep. 🙂
cool cool, just had a question about it as sometimes wording can be funny. it wouldn't have changed the outcome as i had kanpeki dynasty to get back into the fight but was close regardless
i have a query about moment of mercy. i think the way this works is you send home your own dude, then once both you and your opponent pass, if you are the defender of the fight you can bring back your personality for combat resolution correct?
Yes, if your opponent has people there still.
cool cool, just making sure i know how that card works
for onyx edition where mantis clan have no stronghold, do all mantis clan moned cards move into the unaligned category and thus do not cost 2 extra or because they were previously had a clan and a clan mon they still cost the 2 extra?
If you're playing in black-bugged (Onyx) legality, Mantis have no stronghold and thus Mantis cards are considered unaligned (no extra cost, just treated as unaligned)
If you're playing in white-bugged (Shattered Empire) legality, Mantis get their stronghold from Gathering Storms and are considered clan-aligned again
Also why the Imperials, despite having a unique border, are likewise unaligned, as they have no "Imperial Clan" stronghold
cool cool, that is cool to know. now to look at the mantis cards for onyx to see if any are interesting 😛
thankyou for the clarification on this, helps a lot 🙂
It's a good rule of thumb going forward, as others might pop up like the Imperials with stylized or unique borders, but if there is no "Stronghold" for them, they are always treated as Unaligned
I like the unaligned imperials and saw them similarly to the coils of madness boarder or promo boarder to just add some pizazz
Yet.
Cuz they are imperial, they demand pizazz
And pizza
Pizza Pizazz
In most of their cases the song pizazz by akintoye is fitting. "If I'm gonna be sad, do it with pizzazz"
can someone clarify this card for me, can i use this to target one of my personalities with lower chi and then if they are nonhuman and shadowlands or can i just target any personality who and then if they are lower chi bow them or if they are nunhuman and shadowlands i could unbow them?
Basically it's main use is a bow control.
The second part would be if you need to straighten an oni or something. In summery
Bow an opponent's card with lower Chi or with Shadowlands, or straighten your own nonhuman shadowlands
It is an either or type ability
i mean all the shadowlands commanders are nonhumans and shadowlands
I have seen it used more as a control card
wait until he reads [Chuda Ruri] 😄
F ruri... that dirty dirty girl.
Maybe I need to play with some oni
Same that is crazy bow tech..
i am testing both now
need to work out the fate deck though, as it is a shit show right now
Lol
does this card blank disipline? i don't think so but wanted to check just in case.
Strategies don't enter play normally, unless Terrains or Kata.
ok so the only card i think this will effect is lost ground or sulpherous swamps i think ea least without other effects
Stuffs Kano’s Alliance pretty hard
also naffs endo sensei 😦 and the terrain which lets you play followers from the discard pile, convinced my friend to try it and regretting choices...
for the kata show of power, the fear effect needs to be the thing to bow the card for the triggered destruction right? you can't just target a bowed card to destroy a bowed card
the wording "after bowing them" means the card has to bow in order to be destroyed, so it won't destroy cards that are already bowed
Though so, just wanted to double check
Endo sensei
yeah i say that lower down, was more refering the card on effects those strategies coming into play as well
ok this one has me a little confused but we played it out but i want to get an idea for the layers that are being involved here. there was a crab berserker with 3 printed force, he had a -1 force token on them but had attached a jade no datchi and the resilient armor. the player then played berserkers rage.
how does this resolve for his total force? the way we ran it was the printed force is doubled to 6, then the weapon and armor are added to raise force to +11 and then the -1 force token was applied to bring their force to 10. is this correct?
Sounds right
Nope, not right.
So, printed 3F, -1F token, how much are the No Dachi and Resilient again, so I can go through how this works?
no datchi is +3 and armor is +2
Ok, so before BR is played, his Force is 3-1+3+2 (printed, token, weapon, armor) = 7. Play BR, it sets his Force to twice printed which is 6, so he gets -1F so that his current 7 becomes 6. The end. Lesson: Don't play BR on someone with a lot of +F Items.
ok so you do all the math first and then apply the effect of the strategy after. i assume this is because the modifications have already happened and there isn't a wierd layer system like in magic where setting goes before modification etc
Right. Set means "give an appropriate bonus or penalty to make current = amount being "set" to".
cool cool, if you in another example set their force and then somehow added the items after the setting of their force the item bonus's would be addative after that correct?
Right. I mean, the "setting" is just a regular bonus or penalty based on current versus "set" amount. So, Items that come later wouldn't be figured into that bonus/penalty that already happened before them.
that is what i am checking to make sure i understand the order of things. to make sure we get rules correct when learning
Ok, so like, 3F guy with a -1 token, if you set his F to 2x printed before giving him any Items, the set would give him a +4F to get him UP to 6: 3-1+4. Then, attach the +3F and +2F Items after that, and you have 3-1+4+3+2 = 11. It matters what his current Force is when you apply the "set" bonus/penalty. After that, it's just math.
Ah I see. Misread it as “set printed Force to 2x printed Force.” Math is hard
ok that makes sense so for l5r once a thing is done, it is done, there is no weird layering of effect just the order in which they were done, very what you see is that you get
There was a brief moment in time where they toyed with the idea of tracking changes to printed stats and changes to "current" stats separately. That was a frickin' nightmare that was quickly struck down.
as a follow up question, what is the purpose of the until the battle ends in reference too? would his force still be like that for resolution or would it drop back down or is it simply older formatting where some abilities had to state a time limit or they would be permanent
Effects last until the end of turn by default until otherwise stated. This is otherwise. 🙂
End of battle would still be after resolution, though.
ok cool thought so just wanted to confirm as i know there are cards like which reference when the combat segment but this doesn't but wanted to clarify as it looks like an older templated card which has just had an errata
I mean, that's the current Onyx printing/wording of Berserker Rage. The wording is totally up to date.
The Combat Segment is a different period of time than the whole battle, and they are used in both examples intentionally and accordingly.
so combat segment is the engage and battle action back and forth and both together and with resolution make up the the battle as a whole. for an example if you put BR on a guy with elite and then won a defense and moved the bowed dude into another battle to defend, the BR would have worn off as the battle where the BR was used has ended?
Yep.
wonderful, thankyou for the explanation. super helpful 🙂
Although, the Combat Segment is technically just the Battle action part. Engage is a separate segment.
ahh fair enough so there is engage, combat segment and then resolution and these three make up the battle as a whole?
There's also an "After resolution" bit before the battle fully ends, but just those 4, yep: BATTLE SEQUENCE # 0.0.1. Engage Segment 0.0.1. Combat Segment 0.0.1. Resolution Segment 0.0.1. After Resolution
ok perfect, will ned to give the comprehensive rules another read over but this has been super helpful 🙂
rules question. If you oblivious scout and you opponent then used meditating mind, can they only target the scout or because they are targeting the scout they can also target 2 other attachments?
Targeting a unit is equivalent to targeting its Personality; it is not equivalent to targeting each individual card in the unit. Thus, MM's Battle action is not legal whle Ob Scout's effect is active.
Now, can I negate Oblivious' engage with MM's absent interrupt?
Sure, why not? I will say, it's not worded super-great, but the implication is that the action it is Interrupting is the Engage or Event action that it's negating. MM could use a double-coat of tech errata for clarity.
I see, thanks!
cool cool, that makes sense. thankyou for responding 🙂
Rules question about this card?
From the way this reads, on any action that you have not already interrupted, you can use the rulebook courage repeatable interrupt without having to discard a card? and you can do the interrupt on the card twice a turn? the point I wanted to clarify is whether the rulebook courage action is only useable when I have a courage card in hand to attempt to discard or as a rulebook action it is always available regardless of whether I have a card with courage in my hand to attempt to discard?
If you're ignoring the part where you have to discard a courage card, it means you don't even have to have one.
ok cool, I thought that was how it read but wanted to double check that the courage ability from the rulebook wasn't contingent on you needing a courage card to do so similarly to honesty. like where you did not need to discard it, you still need to have it to trigger the courage ability.
I have a query about this item. The query comes about the second clause about if the personality was dead your undead personalities and followers have +1f while opposed this turn.
does this create a static bonus to all followers and personalities in play at that moment to trigger when they are opposed or does it create a force bonus which triggers on anything it could effect this turn including followers out of play added into play through endo sensei? or does somthing completely seperate happen?
It's the second of the two situations you described.
ok i thought that was how it worked but wanted to make sure
I have a question about Honesty on this card. Is the "Draw a card" trait added to the Battle action of the Strategy or you draw a card when you turn the card face up?
Honesty traits on Strategies add their effect as a last, additional effect of the action.
thanks!
The Sincerity trigger for this.
does the ability trigger individually for each token removed and so would be give a -1f/-1c poison token to a person who does not have one or would it trigger once and so for each sincerity token removed give a target who had none previously a -1f/-1c poison token for each token removed.
for example if she has 2 sincerity tokens on her and comes into play does she give out 2 -1f/-1c tokens too two seperate people or can she stack them on one person if they had none before the sincerity action triggered?
For Sincerity traits, you resolve everything before "for each token removed" separately, and then that many times "for each token removed". So, she can not give multiple tokens to the same Personality.
What? For real? I was told the exact opposite, that she could stack tokens, but not split them
I really found her terrifying because of it
I will double-check with Design. There may have been a miscommunication. Sincerity is odd. 🙂 Thanks!
Please let me know... until now every time I see her appearing in a province I want to even throw my chair at her to kill her, LOL
Feels like she'd be pretty undercosted if she could stack three poison on recruit for 6 gold
, a player, a player Double checked, and I was correct on all points. She can/must split the tokens, not stack them. However, this did bring to our attention that Rules for Sincerity traits are a bit weird and not necessarily intuitive, so we may be revising them and issuing clarifying errata to Aoto in the near future (and any other Sincerity cards that may also need it, should we change the Rules, but it appears it was only Aoto who actually mechanically relied upon them, hence our leaning toward revising them and changing her for greater transparency/clarity).
this is fantastic to hear, it means my poor shion died for nothing but it was a good learning lesson 🙂
Died AGAIN for nothing! 😛
But it's not ninube....
👀