hmm strange... So why [Final Moments] is refusable while challenged Personality is dishonored?
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Onyx Lives #rules-questions
Messages from the Onyx Lives #rules-questions Discord channel, copied for Oracle of the Void. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings and the rulebooks may differ.
giving possibility and forcing are that much different?
dishonoring is a consequence, not a cost, to the refusal, therefore someone already dishonored can still refuse
hmm doesn't see a difference in consequence and cost doesn't see the consequence they seem both very much alike except "may" and "can" words
It's not technically a cost.
but it's just a wording case?
The operative verb is "to". Effects after "to" are conditional upon the ones before it occurring.
So, if they must "dishonor to refuse", the refusal can't happen if the dishonor doesn't.
ok I get this
@Brook Cunningham can I send You a question in PM? for a delicate ruling matter, no Tourney involved just a case of technicality i may say
I'd have said "costs happen before, consequences happen after"
Yeah, except post Ivory, a lot of things that were classically costs are instead now technically effects with conditions on further effects.
Sure.
and if a cost can't happen, the action can't happen, whereas consequences may or may not happen after the action started happening (redirects, negates, numerical value adjustments like Courage, or even Focus Effects can alter the consequences)
Hi, according to the Onyx data sheet: "Legacy - “Dynasty: Remove a card in your hand from the game to search your deck and Provinces for a Legacy card. Put it face up in one of your Provinces, discarding the card there. If you fail to find a Legacy card, you lose the game" So, if I search for a Forgotten Legacy and I find it was actually face down in my province already, I don't have to discard a card from a province, because it was already there, is that correct? I'm just trying to get used to the change from 20F rules, which did not require the legacy card to be placed in a province.
Yes it was clarified this way. But imho technically speaking i am wondering if with such wording procedure shouldnt look like you find FL face down in Province, you pick up it, province refill, you put it back discarding new card there.
Onyx:
Can [Crane Box] fulfil [Shigekawa's court] for purposes of "lobbying", to straighten them?
In detail/For Example:
Crane has the favor (control). [Doji Natsuyo] bows for her action, discard the favor, gain 1 honor Response with Crane box, Targeting the bowed [Natsuyo] to lobby ||No, you can't do this because she is bowed, and normal lobbying needs an unbowed 1ph person||
eventhough [Natsuyo] DIDN"T BOW TO LOBBY, can she be straightened by [Shig. Court], as she "lobbied" (Lets say if she gets bowed later)?
As writing it out I believe you can't do part of this.
Therefore, you CAN do this then= use [WIND LOBBY] targeting the bowed [Natsuyo], to then straighten with [Shig. Court]?
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Answers on: Doji Natsuyo, Shigekawa's Court
Yep.
https://tenor.com/view/yep-derp-what-puppet-yip-gif-11384849
Another question(s):
(Just to clarify, am i allow to peak at my prov. for a Legacy card BEFORE searching my deck? Or do i must Search my Deck FIRST?)
(Just to clarify, do i announce the Legacy card im searching for, Then search Deck, THEN PROV.s for the legacy card i announced? Thus ignoring other legacy cards i may have found?)
If i find [Radiant Bay] Facedown in my Prov. (prov. A), per card text/ Onyx rules, am i allowed to "remove it from its prov., put it face-up IN A DIFFERENT PROV. (non-A-Prov.), discarding a card there"?
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Answers on: Radiant Bay
1. If effects don't explicitly happen at the same time or in another specified order, then they implicitly happen in the order written, so deck searching would happen first. 2. I see no reason you couldn't choose to toss the found in Province A card into a non-A Province.
ah, HA a player , no more peaking! 😄
What happens when I don't have enough gold to buy the legacy holding I searched for?
well, its simply "put into prov", thus you couldn't recruit it, its not being purchased "outside a prov"
Legacy just lets you go get it. Recruiting it is seperate
If it's in a province already, could I simply choose to then discard it?
At the appropriate step, yes.
No no I say
Oh, if the one you find is already in a province.
I search for legacy holding I know is in prov x
Enh it's an outside case of wanting to discard the holding when it is face down in a province
yeah, this bring me back to my "clarifying question" of "do i need to announce the legacy card im searching for"
No
It's probably a good idea to know what you want to get, but you don't have to announce it until after you've physically selected the card.
Just like Sup Strat, or Walking the Way.
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You don't buy it as part of the action
so then, with this methodology, i CAN peek my provinces, Ignoring what @Brook Cunningham said regarding "...deck searching would happen first" as i do not have to annouce what legacy, therefore being able to search my deck, go hmm hmm, search my prov.s, then go hmm hmm, then choose my legacy card
You just put it in a province, and can buy it or discard it at your leisure
No, you have to search your deck first.
If you choose not to select a card from your deck, you can then search your provinces.
so THAT would fall under "good faith", if you KNOW you have x2 legacy cards in Deck, i search my deck, (I see both legacy cards), i cannot now go "let me search my provs for a legacy card", right?
But you can't then go back to your deck after you've looked at your provinces.
AH, there's the kicker, yes i understand now
You can then search your provinces for a Legacy card, but if you don't find one, you lose the game.
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i think you understand my question: I search deck for legacy card (i find one but i know i have another legacy card in deck), i search my provs----> Do i NOW HAVE TO CHOOSE the legacy card in my prov.?
Yes
ok, that should clear up my a player shifty-eyes ❤️ ❤️
If you don't select a card from your deck (either by choice or because you can't find any), you search your provinces. If you still don't select a card, you lose.
So - once again - as i need to clarify this. If i search a Legacy and i find it in Province X, a sentence "put it face up in one of your Provinces, discarding the card there" means that a) i take this Legacy card from Province X b) Province X is insta refilled face-down c) i put this Legacy into this specific Province X discarding a face-down card
If not, someone could me explain why not?
That, I'm not sure about - that's a question for Design.
Personally, I don't think you refill.
cause it coule be ampty at that moment too just temporarily yes?
It is definitely allowed to be temporarily empty.
cf Preparedness: https://oracleofthevoid.com/#game=l5r,#cardid=6053
If Design wanted to force you to discard a card, they could use that wording.
But they haven't, which I think means you don't need to discard a card.
I think that this Legacy abilty should contains a special sentence for situation like this like you may refill province with this Legacy holding face-up
Yes.
I understand where you’re coming from but I think you’re creating unintended problems for no reason. The most notable being; people are fallible. I have, on several occasions, needed to search my deck multiple times to find a card (both physically and online). Insisting that you have to do a card by card search before looking at the provinces to eliminate the possibility is an unnecessary delay. If I remember correctly, this debate originated when Gifts and Favors was introduced and part of the decision to allow people to search provinces included the argument that ‘if you know your deck then you can determine what’s in your provinces by elimination anyway so it’s better to let players look than have them pause to count cards’. All that being said, new rules team can lead to new rulings.
If you find the card in province X and choose province X for the place it's going, it would go directly from face down to face up, i would think. There isn't a card area defined for "cards transitioning from one are to another", so the operation would be a single atomic state change.
Yeah
That was for a player ...
Meet the new rules team, same as the old rules team...
(Except that @Brook Cunningham and I are much more unofficial now 🙂 )
Always good to know the decision makers. I still recommend allowing the simultaneous province search. Counting the cards in my dynasty deck each legacy action is tedious.
How does Sarassa work? Does it equip a spell from hand, or a spell currently in play, or either? Can it steal opponent's spells?
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Answers on: Sarassa
Equipping is a bringing-into-play process, so it would be from your hand.
Thanks!
can we get an update on last week's "Legacy" discussion, regarding if the searched-for legacy card is already facedown in a province?
As in: - I find my legacy card in the province and reveal - The province is temporarily empty - I put it in the same province, discarding the card there, which doesn't exist, therefore discarding nothing
Or: - I find my legacy holding in the province and reveal - The province still contains the legacy card - I have to replace the card in a different province for the Legacy card, otherwise I discard the Legacy card in its own province while putting it there according to Legacy rules text
Maybe I'm misremembering (not going to dive back and go through it all), but I thought Gilador already answered this? And I believe what was said is that the top process is the correct one, although I'm not sure step 2 is ever actually the case; rather, the Legacy card never floats outside its own Province and the process implicitly only discards a card if putting it in a Province where one is in its way.
scrolling up, it seems there was some uncertainty, but I may have misinterpreted it as "wait until design comes back with a reply for intent" instead of "rules man say how rule work"
I think that aligns with intent too, but @Jeremy Sumerlin or @Jeff Williamson could additionally sign off on that notion.
I'd be inclined to say it being found in and "going into" the same province is intent
no need to jump through weird province hoops, you found it
Can we get a clarification on Legacy as a keyword...
The above is answering some of it but not all of it.
The current wording indicates you search deck AND provinces.
Above you have indicated that the order is deck first, since it's printed first.
But this still says look in your provinces... so even if I find it in the deck and set it aside, I can still look in provinces before choosing which one to replace... right?
Right. This is the text in the Comprehensive Rules for 20F:
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So, partially reversing what we've been saying, you can choose to search your Provinces first (because the Legacy ability says "deck and provinces", not "deck, then provinces").
But, you can't search your deck, then your provinces, then your deck again.
And you can't search your provinces, then your deck, then your provinces again.
damn a player was/is right the whole time! ❤️
(but if you find a legacy card in your provs, you gotta choose dat one)
Yes and yes
Correction: if you find AND declare a legacy in your province you need to choose it.
and a player Apologies for missing that section in Searching and instead citing the usual "effects happen in the order written", which that section confusingly but clearly contradicts. Thanks to Gilador for finding it, too.
And apologies from me for believing what Brook said... 😜
Question about Purusha, what does his ability's movement denial extend to? Everything for the rest of the turn? Only that battle? or only the personality they targetted?
Answers on: Purusha
It says "this turn" right in the reminder, for your question about duration. Also, "for each that this moved", negate "their further movement", referring to both Purusha (if the action moved him) and the target (if the action moved the target), but no one else.
ahh got it, reading fail on my part
ty
So, it’s come up a few times for me, so I figure I should get an official ruling rather than just going with my gut. The Naga stronghold has you take an additional action to use the copied ability. What happens if you can’t? What if you have no legal targets?
Answers on: The Naga Stronghold
EDIT: I was wrong. You just pass it, but doing so doesn't end the action round.
Eh, there are some situations you’d want to. An unopposed Jiyas is a big one. Setting up the pearl Sensei doesn’t work if it counts as a pass. But if you’re going to lose either way you could recycle a card back into its deck to maybe help in the future. It comes up, sometimes.
Actually, that raises another interesting question. Can you choose to pass the additional action even if you could use it? In case that would be helpful?
Fair point. The lack of "you may" before any given additional action really comes down to available space on the card plus whether it's totally clear cut that you may or may not want to take it in equal measure
I think you can, but I'm not near the CR to be totally sure. I'll try to remember to loop back when it's handier.
Er.
If you pass an additional action, it does not count towards ending the current Action Round.
Ah, dang, I'm on a streak of getting corrected by you. 😛 That's what I get for not having the CR handy. Did it at least used to?
I'm not sure it's technically even part of the Action Round.
Nope.
There may have been effects that changed who went first in a subsequent Action Round, and if you passed that, your opponent could end the Action Round by passing, but that's somewhat different,
Eg with some versions of Sneak Attack, while the Defender has Shiryo no Taisa.
I must be conflating that in my memory. If you're right though, I wonder why we bothered putting "you may" in front of "take an additional action" at all? :/
(Defender plays the Sneak Attack, obvs.)
Oof. Shiryo no Taisa completely owns the Engagement segment 🙂
So, as you can see above, I was wrong about passing. After some redirection from Gilador and taking a moment to consult the CR myself, I can confirm that you can choose to pass the additional action, if you can't take it or even if you can, and doing so will NOT count toward ending the Action Round if your opponent also passes directly after. Sorry about that! And thanks. 🙂
cackles in snek
less of a question, more of a comment: I'm assuming it works the same as it did in Ivory/20F, but the Loyal keyword is not in the Onyx rules datasheet, and I'm wondering if it's an oversight because "duh, of course it works the same", or if it was intentional (as in, with all the calamity of the storyline, is loyalty to your clan put to the side in exchange for higher ideals, aka the Winds)
It works the same
the Onyx rules datasheet is a supplement to (or, in some places as appropriate, replacement for) the existing 20F Comprehensive Rules
just checking in since there are some keywords that seem to work the same as they did in 20F in the datasheet (like Destined or Expendable)