That's how I interpreted it too
Quick question, since Mishime Sensei reduces the cost of Maho actions, would it reduce the cost of recruiting a Personality using this card?
[attachment: image.png]
Answers on: Mishime Sensei
Onyx Lives #rules-questions
Messages from the Onyx Lives #rules-questions Discord channel, copied for Oracle of the Void. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings and the rulebooks may differ.
Is bayushi tenzan and his wife dead?
Answers on: Bayushi Tenzan
No, the Recruit effect is part of the action
And the cost of the Personality is the cost of the action.
So yes, you do get the reduction.
I would think it would apply the discount, since being in RtR the team would have added "take an additional action to Recruit" which would then make the recruitment itself a separate action if that was the intention
then it probably needs a gold cost icon, something we can patch
Yeah
Much thanks
Nope, sorry. Doc was originally correct and Gilador is not. Mishime will not give you a discount on this Recruit for the reason Doc said. From the CR (emphasis mine): "Sometimes, as with Equip, “Recruit” is used as an effect in card text. This means that the effects of the Recruit action are activated, and the card’s Gold Cost is checked against the amount paid for the original action. If the original action did not give the opportunity to pay Gold, then before the card enters play, its Gold Cost must be paid or the entering play fails."
ah, so by the CR, the "take an additional action to Recruit" is implied in any card that would Recruit as part of its action? Then yeah, Mishime wouldn't discount it
The cost of the Personality is still a cost of the action.
Does that mean that putting a variable gold cost icon on CoD would make it work with MIshime?
And no, it's not "an additional action to Recruit"
If the intent is for it to work with Mishime at all
It's using the effects of the Recruit action
Well, it's still an effect of the action, but it's not a cost paid for that action. It's a separate Rulebook effect making you pay because the action didn't. Is my interpretation. I admit, that can be debated, and we can take it up internally.
But no, this cannot be fixed by putting a coin icon on it, because the Gold cost is paid later, not at the pay costs step.
Yeah, I guess that's true.
(The coin part)
might be just misreading it with respect for what I said here in quotes
our perspective on characters is that there is a lot of death associated with the merging of the Realms, but if we have a good reason to bring them back into the story and they are not otherwise marked as dead, we may confirm their survival later
however I should note that there is a tournament result from the Fall 2015 Koteis left yet unresolved where the winner confirmed the Mantis saving Tenzan
Oh..wow
Safer in general to assume someone is dead, though, right?
(Not that this is a Rules question 🙂 )
we use the L5R Wiki a lot when deciding whether to do something with a character https://l5r.fandom.com/wiki/Legend_of_the_Five_Rings_Wiki
[Legend of the Five Rings Wiki]
Generally speaking in some clans that have really been hammered during the war (Crab, Crane, Lion, Mantis) it's generally better to assume if you don't hear about someone, they probably died
and this is what I meant by the hidden "additional action" to recruit. You're not technically taking two consecutive actions, but the Recruit effect is separate from the relevant action and thus paid separately unless the relevant action has the Recruit cost as part of its own cost (which CoD at this time does not). At least that's how I'm reading all of that put together
No
The Recruit effects are resolved in the "Resolve effects" step of the action, not separately
well, as seen with Daidoji Shimizu, just because someone died doesn't necessarily mean they're gone
Truth
No, Gilador is right that the effect is rolled into the one action, but the interpretation of why/what for the cost is paid is a little grayer. We'll discuss it.
Clearly I loved tenzan and his wife and their story
I should have kept my mouth shut in Barcelona 😮💨
Also will we ever find out who the red woman was paneki talked to
Should probably move discussions about non rules stuff to the appropriate section
Oh sorry
(link)
I'm pretty sure that making the cost of the card entering play a cost of the action being put into play was one of the things I suggested to Reese during the World Championships in Barcelona 🫣
Rule #1: Don't give Reese ideas. 😉
I clearly hadn't considered all the complications...
It's interesting to hear all this behind the scenes stuff about Reese
I kid. He's a good guy, he just has strong opinions about what is right and how to implement that.
He had his moments
Not crediting the Irish guys with the design of the Siege sets was pretty shitty.
so with all that said, CoD shouldn't work with Mishime Sensei? At this point, I'm just curious if it was intended to work with Mishime at all
Answers on: Mishime Sensei
as I'm understanding the quoted CR text, the Recruit effect is resolved in the "Resolve Effects" step, and then additionally the GC has to be paid for the Recruit effect to happen, whereas Mishime's reduction would happen at the "Pay Costs" Step. That is, assuming the card does not have the Recruit cost baked in as its own cost. Of course, I'm not an expert like you all are, so if I am wrong in this reading of the CR text, then I am simply wrong
It's still a cost of the action
And Mishime Sensei doesn't limit the cost reduction to costs paid during the "Pay costs" step.
We're... sorta gonna figure that out. Gray area a bit here. I thought I had it down, but Gilador is shoving me onto the fence, and we'll see which side we collectivley land on.
Hey guys, rules discussion is all good, but let's avoid slagging people. 🙂
joking that was in hindsight a bit too mean- spirited-sounding redacted
As always, thanks for your efforts. For now, I guess I'll play with it not working with Mishime sensei.
Sorry, we'll do our best to get a consensus soon. he said, realizing for the first time his isn't about a preview; these sets tend to blend in my head
And to be clear, Bound in Blood either works or doesn't work with Mishime Sensei - it doesn't anti-work.
(Ie, if you declare the cost is 6g, and Mishime Sensei reduces that to 4g, you either get to target 3 people (my answer: based on the gold paid) or 2 people (Brook's answer: based on the gold actually spent)).
Well, in this case, we're definitely going with mine. You even said I was technically correct (the best kind). Consumed by Darkness is a separate issue we'll resolve soon.
No, I think the Comprehensive Rules are wrong.
Or at least, could use an additional line about changes to variable costs.
Ugh
Well, ok. But unlike Consumed, where the CR is gray and we'll have to interpret, Bound is... bound by how the CR currently is, until it's directly changed (which no one is saying will definitely happen, to be clear).
The discussion about BiB is in the (link) channel.
What if BiB said "Gold paid", rather than "Gold spent"?
I don't see how that would change anything. Mechanically, those feel synonymous.
I mean, I see the distinction you're trying to make.
If you declare the cost as 6g, and it's reduced by 2g, I think you paid a cost of 6g.
Even though you only spent 4g.
But in the past tense, they're effectively the same. We wouldn't say you "paid" more than the actual payment was.
What happens with Hired Killer?
Cost reductions would have worked at the time with Hired Killer, because you targeted, then paid.
I watch this discussion with dismay
If Bound in Blood said, "Choose a number between one and four, and pay twice that much Gold, to target that number of your Personalities." it would definitely work as I said, right?
Or Political Interference
Then paying the Gold isn't a cost of the action, it's a conditional effect. Unless you're saying there's also a coin in that version which is supposed to be governed by the later choice, in which case, that breaks the order in which things are done.
I guess there's no "choose" step.
Just for targets, and we had to shoehorn that in at 20F. 😛
So, your problem is still ultimately with the CR, not the card. shrug
Maybe.
How would you word Political Interference?
Carefully? 😛
In all seriousness, printing it under current Rules, I'd probably just forego trying to make it add cost to the action and just be "Interrupt: pay 2 or lose 2 honor (and explicitly apply whatever the contemporary consequences of not fully paying for an action you might have announced in good faith if they choose the former, but darned if I'm looking that up now). No, it wouldn't work exactly the same, but it would break too much of the current Rules structure to try to make it do so. shrug
Fair
https://tenor.com/view/shaun-of-the-dead-simon-pegg-nick-frost-edgar-wright-fence-gif-14819766
While on the topic of Mishime Sensei, do I need to pay for the 3GC Oni that it creates?
Answers on: Mishime Sensei
No. You're just creating it, not Recruiting it.
Is the combat segment +2F from Yamigatai considered a force bonus or a modifier?
bonus
if it was a modifier, it would say in the text.
I think it is neither
but after a glance it seems like a bonus..
its not like
[attachment: image.png]
Do you mean it is like this? Because both this example and Yamigatai's trait are bonuses. Only "+/- X" in stat boxes are "modifiers"; anything from an effect is a bonus/penalty.
no I meant its not like this cause at first I was treating it (as I was playing the same way as i treated this Hare Clan Bushi. but then i realised that its just a bonus until resolution
[attachment: image.png]
but its nice to know that is also a bonus
Oh, I see. Yes, that's the difference. Seki only has his bonus while an action is resolving, yeah, but it and the Yamitagai traits are bonuses.
but can You nullify somehow [Usagi Seki] bonus?
Potentially, with a really broad yet specific effect like "negate all current and new Force bonuses during this battle"; there might be a Terrain that does that? Forgive me, my card knowledge used to be encyclopedic but is no longer. 😦
but isn't it like that, he have bonus for the reminder of an action, the action nullifies it and You have only this slight window to treat him like he doesent have this bonuses, because for next action window his trait will grant him another +5 bonus?
oh maybe there are terrain that indefinitely nullify bonuses... maybe
currently not in Onyx, I assume a card like "Creating Order" would since I'm assuming "current and new" means any at the moment and any that can be applied in the future, but CO is not Onyx legal
Answers on: Creating Order, Yamigatai
checking with both "new" and "current" with Onyx legality in the two card word search bars (since the keyword search bar also searches in card text instead of just the keywords) results in 3 cards that don't influence force, and "future" results in 2 cards, 1 of which only influences force penalties
"Breaking the Rythm" would remove the bonus from Yamigatai, but not from Usagi Seki (technically only the bonus he gets while "Breaking the Rythm" is played is negated, the next action will have it come back)
Also, Creating Order only negates bonuses from actions, not traits, so that wouldn't affect the Usagi either.
yup, nevermind then, wouldn't work on Usagi, or Yamigatai since there it's also a trait
So odd one, the 'clan' for naga is akasha, do you have to pay two more for Yoritomo Minoko? or is 'Mantis' not a clan keyword right now?
Answers on: Yoritomo Minoko
Mantis Clan is not a clan in Onyx legality because they do not have a legal stronghold, and are treated as unaligned. Minoko Xp1, however, has the Akasha alignment, so would be +2GC if you were playing her in a non-Akasha deck
If you are refering to Minoko XP2 in ROU, she is technically unaligned. "Naga" is not her clan alignment, as it's not a Clan Alignment
awesome ty
nah i play Minoko in my akasha deck and just wanted to make sure i wasnt cheating
In summary, in Onyx legality, you don't pay 2G extra for anyone with a Mantis border
It will not go throught to another arc tho, if there will be a Mantis stronghold ofc.
For 'Relentless' do you need to have be opposed to play it at all or can you play it unopposed for just the +1F?
it need to be oposed for Force bonus /edit/ and straighten
[attachment: image.png]
It need to be opposed to even play it.
Just checking if there's a decision yet on this card
My initial thought is no. Due to it not having any printed cost.
Sorry, still trying to reach others for a concensus. In the meantime, I would say to either not allow the discount or let your TO decide.
No problem, thanks for your efforts
Consumed is clearly meant to work with Mishime sensei. It it doesn't I wouldrequest an errata
I know there was a place this was mentioned, but I'm having a hard time locating what the Bushido Virtue keywords mean. Specifically, Honesty, Sincerity, and Duty. I remember what Honor does, there was one that let you resist Fear effects, it wasn't Bravery, but I don't quite remember. And I think there were supposed to be 7 of them.
Is there a document someone could point me to? I just did a search on the one linked here, and despite it being 200 pages, it showed up blank.
Honesty - Battle action that lets you turn face up an honesty card in your hand (the actions have a bonus when they are face up)
Sincerity - add a token to the card when they are in your province facxe up at the end of the turn, when they enter play they get bonuses for each sincerity token they had
Duty - you can discard a card to shuffle a duty card into your deck.
paraphrase all of this of course.
Courage lets you discard to increase or reduce fear effects
Honor does the same for honor gains.
compassion is when you have less provinces, courtesy is when you are going second.
https://www.mediafire.com/folder/mlik3hxd2v7v1/Public_L5R -> onyx rules datasheet
[MediaFire]
That is prolly more helpful lol
thanks!
Just to expand this a little: you are paying for the 3GC oni, as part of the cost of the action - you're just paying an extra 2g for it.
Well, in a way, but not technically.
Yes, very technically.
No. Not invoking the Recruit action/effect means you never pay for the card. If the ability had no coin icon at all, it could create a card with a 3GC stat, and you never pay that.
It's the same as Farmlands.
You're paying for the Follower.
Not anymore. Equipping and Recruiting effects have to be specifically invoked.
Nope.
That's the whole point of the the change.
The Farmlands action can be paid for with gold that can only be used for Followers.
You can pay for the action on Mishime Sensei with gold that can only be used for Personalities.
What? How?
Farmlands is outdated precedent, and I didn't consider this interaction for its Oracle wording.
Farmlands, per its Oracle wording, doesn't Equip, it creates.
Answers on: Farmlands
Yes
It's an action that creates a Follower, so you're paying for it.
True. Technically, to make it work as it did contemporarily, it should also Equip under Ivory/20F/Onyx Rules.
As the CR currently stands, only Equip and Recruit allow for that. One sec, I literally was just reading this.
[attachment: image.png]
Actually, I think the Oracle text is correct here; the contemporary rulings were that the Farmlands action was not "paying for a Follower", unless that got changed late in Celestial.
Oh, at the time, sure.
Because Farmlands is neither Recruiting nor Equipping, the cost paid for its action does not pay for the created card, and so does not pay for a Follower.
Answers on: Farmlands
Ah, I was just trusting Alex. I should've trusted me more. 😛
I'm using Farmlands as the example because it's the one that always caused questions.
Pre-Ivory, the two were separate.
Still is, for cards that neither Equip nor Recruit.
Ie, pre-Ivory the cost of an action that brought a card into play was separate from the cost of the card being brought into play.
Famrlands, in Oracle: "Limited, (2): Create a 1F Follower and attach it to your target Personality"
Alternative Universe Farmlands: "Limited, (2): Create a 1F Follower and Equip it to your target Personality".
If you have gold that can only be used for a Follower, you cannot use it to pay for the Farmlands action, but you could use it to pay for the AUF action, if that card existed.
Answers on: Farmlands
That CR text is wrong.
It should include cards which are created and directly put into play.
That is explicitly the difference between Equipping and attaching without the Equip procedure.
Answers on: Farmlands
Not all attaching is necessarily Equipping.
I agree that if something like Farmlands was created in Onyx, it would almost certainly invoke the Equip procedure, but in a format where Farmlands is legal, the Farmlands action is not "paying for a Follower" as the CR stands.
There were versions of Mishime Sensei which had the variable cost symbol, and said, "Create and Recruit a 3g Oni, paying 2g more"
Hm
Maybe not Mishime Sensei. But cf Kitsune Yoshioka
Yoshioka's Elephant is not Recruited (although it's also 0GC, so the difference matters very rarely).
[attachment: image.png]
Oh, hey, forgot she got Onyx'ed and was lazily looking at Oracle text. 😉
I dunno.
Yes, Onyx!Yoshioka's Elephant is Recruited
Answers on: Yoshioka's Elephant
This is a whole conversation that never really got to happen, to nail down whether these cards with costs are just created, or always need to be "created and Recruited"
Another casualty of the sale 😕
The CR permits cards to be created without Equipping / Recruiting them.
Yes. But.
As I said, that's likely something that would have been nailed down.
Pedantically, I don't see any reason why you can't have both. They're very similar, but they interact with other effects in different ways.
So just to confirm, Mishime Sensei's Maho ability has 5GC but its trait can also give that a discount of usually -4G. Am I paying just the remaining 1G to create the 3GC Oni or not?
Yes. If Mishime's trait is giving -4 to Maho actions, his own 5G action is only 1G. Pay 1, create, no further payments.
emphasis this
🍻 sounds good 🙂
Are you able to use Courage against the fear effect caused by Assault Unit?
I know you can’t interrupt an interrupt, but could you courage in response to recruiting the assault unit?
Answers on: Assault Unit
[attachment: IMG_5003.jpg]
You cannot interrupt and interrupt
Or a Response!
er, interrupt an interrupt
Courage is an Interrupt
If you Interrupt the Reserve with Courage, it will do nothing. It only affects the action it's interrupting.
Ah I misread
Yes, MacBeth is correct
I appreciate the response! That’s how I thought it would work, but I wanted some reassurance.
curious about an interaction: If I have a Daidoji Shimizu with 0 Guard counters, when I use the Engage action, does he have an Honor gain of 0? Which could be increased by an Honor interrupt, or the trait on Ritual Armor?
[attachment: Onyx091.png]
or is it only an Honor gain if it actually gains a minimum of 1 to begin with?
The latter
gotcha
guessing it's as a hidden/implied "if" clause for having a Guard token
Simply put, it's a a net change of 0 honor, which is neither a gain nor a loss. I believe you can't interrupt with honor either way to such a result
Indeed
There was a bit of confusion in the onyx event last night, and i figure this is the channel to ask intent over rules as written.
So RAW, at the moment these 5 cards
Isawa Noda Kitsuki Kohaku Matsu Tayuko Otomo Suikihime Utaku Sakiko
Do not become Favor actions if you discard the Imperial Favor for the increased effect (but the Response on Imperial Assessor does, oddly enough)
Is this intentional?
Could someone post Imperial Assessor here? I am on mobile now.
I don't think the Response does become a Favor action; it's still worded as a conditional effect rather than a cost block
[attachment: image.png]
Exactly.
Maybe it should be worded like "This card's controller may straighten it as Response to this action with cost of 4G or discarding IF".
If it does not create an action for the opponent that would be worded "Reaction (4) or IF:" , then the last bullet in the Favor Action clause has no examples
Maybe just this Holding is written badly.
shrug I wouldn't go that far. I'm positive they're much better at writing cards than I am. I just want to clarify intent, is all
Bad wordings happen.
As for me if someone would like to put RoA as another Favor action with help of this Holding in tournament game against me i wouldnt allow to do with current state of wording/rules.
Im confused, where's the question?
Is this just a grumble for " Ring of Air" is hard?
It's rather lack of understanding rather than grumble
One player in the event was asking about Suikihime, and it evolved into trying to understand what a variable cost is in regards to Favor
Ah, in the S&M discord is the 75+ discussion, ah haaaa
So im asking here in the hopes that @Jeremy Sumerlin or @Brook Cunningham could enlighten us (heh) in the intent behind a list of cards
Kempy has already declared a ruling for the event, so this is 100% just my curiosity
Intent for"why these 5/6 cards are not favor actions"?
Or if they were intended to be based on the variable favor cost rule that doesn't actually work for them as written
I’m reading through the comprehensive rules and wanted to make sure I’m understanding things correctly for 20 festivals.
It states that battlefields are created during an attack (or special card effect).
Do battlefields still exist for provinces that aren’t attacked? Specifically you can calavary units to random provinces that were never attacked right?
I just want to make sure you have an engage / battle action sequence for each province, even if no attack was declared there
Correct. You still resolve each province battle. Attacker chooses, unless a card specifically says otherwise.
Thanks! Calvary seems pretty nuts for breaking early provinces when it’s impossible to have presence everywhere.
You can only move one unit which makes it a little worse than it was in older editions, but yes - Cavalry really messes with defenders
You can only do it once?
Oh is it because it’s a non repeatable rulebook action?
correct
since in 20 Festivals they removed the Cavalry Maneuvers segment
Definitely missed that. Rules are complicated, but that makes total sense
in Ivory
yes, my bad
I appreciate all the quick answers 😄
It still has the same Cavalry unit requirement. Ie personality and followers must all be Cavalry to use the engage action.
So instead of going wide, you go tall
While waiting for ruling on Consumed by Darkness, just wanted confirmation if Mishime Sensei also reduces the Maho action for Return to Serve? So let's say I don't give a Chi penalty and attempt to recruit a 6GC dead Personality, I can get a discount of normally up to 4GC and only need to pay 2G?
[attachment: image.png]
Yes. Both the Spell's own effect and Mishime give you a discount on how much you have to spend to Recruit. It's a direct cost of the action.
As for Consumed... it currently does not interact with Mishime as worded (as I previously ruled), but there may be errata issued to fix that. That decision is with Design now. Thanks for your patience! 🙂
I also don't think we got a clear ruling on Bound in Blood with Mishime Sensei. based on my understanding. the number of targets is based on the gold spent for the action cost so Mishime Sensei discount doesn't help it.
Answers on: Bound in Blood, Mishime Sensei
Sorry, I thought it was clear? Your understanding is correct. 🙂
Ah okay, so it was never meant to work. Much thanks
I was checking back and I think the conversation just drifted off
NP! Also important to note, Mishime will not detrimentally affect Bound either. You pay what you want and target what you want. Mishime won't "force" you to target less things.
I have a question
I want to play mantis clan and was pissed off when they left. I see the new cards have some mantis clan personality and mantis clan back, but I am not seeing a mantis clan stronghold?
Next set lyrone
Mantis Clan stronghold is planned as part of a special release coming in early February
Yea, they're in the process of rebuilding
Okay, why I didnt want to play this originally, I have a mantis clan mon tattoo and when they destroyed them I just lost all interest in l5r
ROU is laying the groundwork for their return, but giving them a stronghold with only 6 legal personalities wouldn't have exactly been great
I mean the game kinda ended right after that
well looks like you cant even use 3 of them without a specific sensei
There's a few that are listed as unaligned, yea.
Mantis will be a fully realized Clan again with the upcoming planned February release(s)
Isn't thunderous acclaim onyx legal?
Sounds good, im nick, out of colorado by the way dont know how many old timers are around here still
Wasn't there some mantis in that? The moshi daimyo
I've been playing since imperial
I'm not what one would call an old timer; I came in around Emperor.
well meant back around in colorado, I know it used to be a few people on here
And yes, currently part of the 'rebuilding' of the mantis involves three different people, backed by three different factions, all claiming the leadership of the Clan
It's a neat story thread Tetsuro
One for each Wind huh?
Yep
But we have plans to introduce enough Mantis clan Personalities to allow them a decent Personality base to be able to step into normal game play
What happened to minoko, thought she was all kenpekis bitch last time I played?
The half naga?
si
she was always half spider i thought?
or is that someone else?
She was pretty new and towards the end of the original game
You might be thinking of someone else
Are you thinking of the onyx champion who was mantis?
I know there was a Kitsune, the one with the bear
She was definitely loyal to Kaneki
Kanpeki
You are thinking of hotako
Oh, Hotako died a while ago.
Yep
Ikoma Ayumu killed her IIRC
Unless you are thinking of the fake mantis champion who was an item with the gaijin undead guy garen?
Man I remember way too much
cough We're way off Rules here. Move to General or Story?
Absolutely
Im thinking of... Aranai
Oh yeah her. Another mantis spider defector. Man there have been a bunch
😱 SPOILERS!!
I think we mentioned it when we previewed the ROU Mantis people, so it's ok. 🙂
😱 CONFIRMED SPOILERS!!
Mantis never was destroyed while game was alive. It was decided to happen, but "happened" after game was sold when playtest stuff was leaked.
Yes it is, along with other Twenty Festivals cards with black kanji.
Nope. Game ended even before The Blackest Storm expansion when all those Mantis Islands were demolished. Set was ready, but was never printed and even never oficially released. Last physical expansion was Evil Portents that reached stores a month after sale.
Mantis was in excellent competetive point before sale (winning Worlds at Gencon) and even a bit after (winning Euros in Greece a month after IP sale).
I have a Rules Question for everyone. What would we do without our resident Rules Guru, @Brook Cunningham ? We started this project without him, but we couldn't imagine it without him. Happy Birthday!
We'd probably be banging our head against the wall
Congrats man
Hope your family is giving you a nice steak for your birthday
Maybe your kids will do the chores? 😛
Question about the Dark Ring of Fire, if I cause Chi death on my Personality, does that count as being destroyed by my action?
[attachment: image.png]
Answers on: Dark Ring of Fire
Chi death is from the Rulebook.
I figured but doesn't hurt to confirm. Much thanks.
Do +1F tokens count as force bonuses?
For example, will Ruby Ascendance stop the force provided by +1F tokens until end of turn.
Also would a card like courage beyond question stop +F counters from being added?
Iirc they are not force bonuses themselves but are tokens that provide force bonuses
So Ruby would work, but not courage?
But there are real rules people here so I would obviously defer to them
I believe Ruby would work but Courage would not, yes
Courage Beyond Question can cancel any bonuses from applying even from tokens if it interrupts action that gives the bonuses. same goes for [Breaking the Rythm] but its not an Interrupt but an Absent Action. but best is to wait for @Brook Cunningham
CBQ is an interrupt, it'll prevent the bonuses or penalties from the action being interrupted
Example: you use imaginary action to give a character with 3F +1F, then you use an action that doubles his current F, giving him +4F, and your opponent uses CBQ. The +4F is negated, but the +1F from the previous action remains since it's from a separate action
Poor out a bottle of Friendly Travler for Daitsu.
If I interpret it right, O believe the tokens are negated for the turn, but if the turn changes, they get their force back. Would that be correct?
Yes
whereas Ruby Ascendance would negate both the +1F and the +4F if played after both had been applied
Answers on: Ruby Ascendance
Looks like all this has been pretty well answered, but just to summarize for a player: +/-[#][Stat] tokens convey bonuses and penalties, which are considered from the action that gave the token. Negation of bonuses/penalties like RA or CBQ will negate the effects of the tokens until the end of turn, but they will continue to exist and reassert themselves after the negation ends.
Even CBQ? The action doesn't create force bonuses
Yes, the action does; I said that directly above, "...which are considered from the action that gave the token."
Must have glazed over that part
I appreciate the in depth answers!
DISCLAIMER: I am yet to read the new rulebook and havent played since ivory 😄 SO I saw that we are getting Mantis back. How can you play Mantis now in Onyx? Maybe I missed a Sensei/Wind/Stronghold in the ROU doc? What the rules here if you wanna be "Mantis" ?
Also I see some cards referring to be faceup in hand. How is that possible? Also,also, I see some card wordings that imply multiplayer. Is that a thing in Onyx?
Read the new rulebook first 🙂
For the main body of rules, check the 20 Festivals Comprehensive Rules. The Rules Datasheet doc includes and expands on new or changed rules until they write up a Comprehensive Rules document for Onyx.
Long story short: currently, Mantis characters count as "unaligned", because they have no legal Stronghold for Onyx. There is a way to sidestep this via certain Senseis that give your Clan Alignment to a certain family formerly of the Mantis (such as Tsuruchi and Kitsune). These Sensei are also restricted to specific clans. Mantis have been confirmed to get a new Stronghold in the first set of the Shattered Empires block, which will also cycle out the 20 Festivals bugged cards.
Face-up cards will usually happen via the Honesty keyword, check the Rules Datasheet for how that works Multiplayer is as baked in as it always used to be.
Thanks! Maybe its an off shoot here, but are there any web base deck builders for onyx? I would play around with decks but i cannot install sun and moon in the office 😄
Not yet.
We've been told that we may get Onyx stuff into Oracle in early January, but nothing definite. It's up to the schedule of the runner of Oracle
honestly, it's waiting for it to get on Oracle that's stopping me from printing out the proxies for home play (don't want to print the card preview pdfs in triplicate because that's just too much paper and ink for printing and also I don't need my Clan Champion 3x unless I'm building a Phoenix deck)
there is a file with the pictures tho
I sent them to our print shop
I wanna wrap my head around Scorpion after long last...
give everything poison counters (i don't know, I don't play Scorpion)
(also, should move this out of the rules questions thread)
I'm sure this is a dumb question, but there isn't any rulebook action or anything that can give your clan alignment to an unaligned personality right?
Nope. You’ll need a card effect
How do interrupts with the Honor keyword work? If an action/interrupt gained or lost honor, are you interrupting the action, or interrupting the honor change?
Honor reads as "Repeatable Honor Interrupt: Once per action, discard an Honor card to increase or reduce an Honor gain or loss by 1." So you are interrupting the action with an Honor gain/loss
Also, you only ever Interrupt actions and only at a specific point, just before resolving effects.
So you can't use the honor keyword to interrupt a proclaim, then?
you can
proclaim is an interrupt action with an honor gain
I thought you couldn't interrupt interrupts
That's true. I think Marcus may have mistyped? Maybe he meant "interruptABLE". Proclaiming is a modification of a Recruiting action.
So a card that says "interrupt: someone gains 1 honor" could not be interacted with via the honor keyword, then?
Also, is the once per turn bit an errata? Its not on the reminder text anywhere
It's not once per turn, it's per action, but yes that's an update for Onyx.
And it's likely a clarification that would've been made at Ivory/20F's end too, if not for the sale of the IP.
What about this interaction? From what I've been told you cannot do this, right?
No reacting to or interrupting interrupts, so it would not work
Oh yeah, sorry I missed that part of the post. Daisuke is correct.
Well, he's right about Interrupting Interrupts. Reactions are a whole other (extinct) animal.
Two more questions, both unrelated - First question, spirited dispute lets you invest (2) to resolve it's action twice. Does that change mean you resolve each of it's two modes, or resolve the same mode both times?
Answers on: Spirited Dispute
The latter.
OK, last question - In twenty festivals, Mantis stronghold is a Port, and Lord of the Kumo from TBS destroys a port when it enters play. Can this destroy the mantis stronghold (for a cool bit of flavor) or is that illegal?
can't remove a SH from play, iirc
Strongholds are specifically immune to removal from play by the Rules.
And as of our latest Rules update with the "release" of ROU, so are Winds and Sensei. 🙂
But Strongholds have had that immunity since Emperor Edition.
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Perfect, thank you for all of your help!
Some what similiar question , but are holdings and strongholds considered to be in play at a battlefield?
Like could this bow them
This guy made me think that it's legal to target holdings at least
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No, Holdings and Strongholds are not at battlefields, nor are they ever "enemy" cards. (exception: Fortification Holdings are actually at the battlefield associated with their Province, but they're still never "enemy" cards)
Okay, so Tairao works as a special exception since he specifically calls them out
Answers on: Tairao
Not exactly; the Rule of Location that prevents targeting cards not at the battlefield only applies to cards in units.
And as for the Bo, only cards in units can ever be "enemy" cards.
That makes a ton of sense. Thank you!
Just checking that Togashi Higaru exp 3 can straighten anything, so he could straighten a holding, stronghold, wind, sensei?
Yeah, it sounds like this.
Thanks! Also a more difficult question: Togashi Shao xp and Mirumoto Hitomi xp2CW: If he copies her bonuses, and she has the Obsidian Hand, then when she is opposing an enemy with higher PH, she gets +2C, which I understand is a bonus, not a modifier. So Shao also gets +2C (and does this only apply to battles, not to Open duels?). But if she is later in another defending battle in the same attack phase, and she gets the +2C again, does Shao again get +2C (for a total of +4C)?
i think the item gets the +2C bonus by its wording, not Hitomi, which would mean he doesn't get that specific bonus. If I'm wrong, though, then yes, each time Hitomi defended, she'd regain the +2C and Shao would get each instance of +2C, stacking. (And since this bonus applies when opposed, it can only happen during the combat segment, which would be after any opportunity for Open duels unless in the rare case a temporary battlefield was created and resolved during the action phase.)
Bonuses that Shao xp gains arent conditional. So even if target Personality gains conditional bonus, Shaos gains just pure bonus of same value.
+2C trait on Obsidian Hand is a bonus to Personality's Chi.
I'm foreseeing a send home/harpoon combo potential
Thanks! Also, Togashi Higaru xp3 and Doom of the Dark Lord: because you draw 2 cards at end of turn, can he look at the top card and send it to the bottom of deck twice, or only once?
Answers on: Togashi Higaru, Doom of the Dark Lord
For me it could repeat his trait for every card but someone smarter should answer this 😉
Please post the card so Macbeth can read it
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Yep, twice; the Doom draw has the same timing as the normal draw, so each will trigger Higaru Exp3's trait. 🙂
Thanks! Seems this guy just keeps getting better
Question, can Viper tattoo be used if there is no one in the enemy army?
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No. Because targeting is mandatory.
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If I challenge a personality who is already dishonored, does that make way of crane unrefusable?
Yes.