Did the tactical keyword on an action have any mechanical ramifications? I feel like I recall it did, but it’s been half a decade so I could just be misremembering.
Onyx Lives #rules-questions
Messages from the Onyx Lives #rules-questions Discord channel, copied for Oracle of the Void. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings and the rulebooks may differ.
A Tactician can only perform one Tactical action per turn
That’s what I remembered, but I couldn’t find it anywhere. I suppose I just missed it.
What about tactical actions that aren’t preformed by personalities. Like strategies that don’t target anyone?
It was removed in Ivory/20F, but preserved in Legacy and then reinstated in Onyx with provisions made for the lack of performing.
Not sure where the Onyx Rules are handy to the public, sorry.
I was looking through the comprehensive rules pdf that’s in the mediafire account and it doesn’t have any references to that. Only tactical advantage.
What is the provision for lack of preforming, if you don’t mind me asking?
Isnt this covered in Onyx datasheet in Mediafire link?
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Performing isn't a thing in Onyx
i think it varies on format
There are no Tactical actions that don't target your personalities
Your personality that has been targeted is considered to have used Tactician for the turn
If it is I can’t read it. Looked there too.
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Ah! So it was. Thanks.
of course wee need explanation what "may use" means 😄
Also this is incorrect. Banish all Doubt is a tactical open that doesn’t target any personalities. But that rule does prevent it from just being absolutely amazing in every deck ever.
The rule is what requires targeting, but the targeting required is what determines whose tactician is used up by the action
in "original" Onyx, before recent changes about returning of Tactical, BAD was worded such way:
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Every printed [BAD] required to target / chose unbowed tactician [TH] and [EE]
Becasue it's how Tactical worked in the past. Original Onyx didnt have Tactical as mechanic.
Oh let me ask a question about Crane Stronghold then - "lobby without bowing" still requires unbowed personality to be targeted by this lobby?
And while Palatial Estate Response triggers during a battle does it mean this lobby turns into Battle action and has to obey RoP and RoL?
Lastly, does "even during a battle" part extends to allowing Crane player to lobby in their opponents turn (which Lobby Open text from onyx datasheet explicitly forbids)?
So the questions are: 1. Do I need unbowed (with PH more than 0) Personality to use this Response? 2. If so, do this Personality has to be at the current battlefield while Response is used during a battle? 3. Do I need presence to used this Response during a battle. 4. Can this Response be used to take Favor during my opponent turn?
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I think it Requires You in the first place to spend Favor for an action and then make it like you wasnt spending it If You have unbowed Target for this Box lobbying action
1. Think so (I don't think removing the bowing cost also removes the unbowed targeting condition) 2. Don't know but usually you'd have one anyway since I can't off the top of my head think of an Absent Favor action 3. It's not Absent (and see 2.) 4. That's how I've played with it so far
I'm not on the design team but the admittedly few times I've used it I've used it along those answers
@Brook Cunningham a player
Right, RoP and RoL are applied to all kind of abilities nowadays. So 2 and 3 are clear. The only problem remaining is 4. I guess. Because Rules as Written it does not seem you'd be able to lobby outside your turn, which Crane stronghold specifically mentioning Lobbying during a battle, kinda feels like should do.
Think that it's the intention, especially with Side B giving your Favor actions Repeatable (So you can use the rulebook Favor Battle action twice in one battle, for instance)
The Crane box Oracle wording will be clearer.
@Jeremy Sumerlin @Jeff Williamson
Since its a topic of discussion can we preview the Oracle wording? Or wait still?
I mean it comes out in a few hours
Hence my asking 🤝🧑🏭🫴🤐
https://tenor.com/view/yeah-excellent-extra-hello-hello-u-gif-21823546
is side B losing the +5 Lobby bonus?
Whoops, that's an incorrect upload on my part. One sec (at work)
np, glad it got caught at least
Okay, these should be the right ones
[attachment: Onyx381.png] [attachment: Onyx381b.png]
definitely clarifies it a lot
looking forward to using the new cards for the Oracle update
just being a Crane make You a political being...
Should Shiba Tsukimi have the Unique keyword?
Nope!
Probably not. Her 20F didn’t.
Nice!
Nope. It's a nod to the Imperial Edition Phoenix Champion.
Literally yes. Or at least everyone getting a semester of Politics 101
Does a "Tacitcal" action require a Tactician? I can't find anything about it in the 20F Basic/Advanced rulebooks, the Comprehensive Rules, or the Onyx rules. But the old printings of Banish All Doubt seem to explicitly call it out, and the card seems like an auto-include in every deck otherwise.
I may also just be blind but I looked for awhile.
Check Onyx rules sheet carefully. Tactical/Tactician returned in Onyx.
@Brook Cunningham
Can [Utaku Yabusame] COMBINE her OWN RA using [Stand up Eight]?
(Use [Su8] as honesty) (but it would still be limited to only using it "twice" for a RA6? gain 2?)
[attachment: image.png] [attachment: image.png]
Answers on: Utaku Yabusame, Stand Up Eight
found this question
No. From the Comprehensive Rules (emphasis mine): "As an Interrupt to that action, the player may use an ability from another card in the same unit"
While we are on the subject, can you use "concealed archers" and "no hiding place" to shoot into and out of the battle that is created by "Ambush"?
Answers on: Concealed Archers, No Hiding Place
Your example is unclear. Are you asking about using both cards together, or how each card interacts separately with Ambush?
Well, assuming the latter, yes you can shoot into an Ambush with Concealed Archers, and yes you can shoot out of one with NHP.
Provided, in the NHP case, that it's YOUR Ambush.
Yup that is what i was getting at, i thought that was how it worked by i just wanted to make sure.
whoa, that's a weird interaction with [Concealed Archers] 😄
"i ambushed your ambush; get rekt'd "
And I also assume you can naval invasion during an Ambush?
It's a battle segment, so yes...frigging Naga and or Tsuruchi 😉
Why Reserve for Personalities in Onyx isn't Absent anymore?
The Reserve rules as they read in the Onyx Datasheet are not intended to be a change from 20F. What was transcribed there was truncated reminder text, and not the full pair of abilities (the Recruiting one of which is, and remains, Absent).
latest Onyx rules sheet
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also all reminders on Reserve Personalities are non Absent
except on pre-Onyx cards
As I said, it's truncated. Note that the reminder encapsulates both Reserve abilities, so it's only referring to the aspects they have in common, that they must be opposed and are Battle. Only the Recruit one is Absent, so it doesn't mention that when talking about both at once
Ok. But its confusing, especially as reminder on card
like you have two guys in provinces and one says absent battle and another just battle
I see evil things batching inside Kempy's mind.. I look into future with uncertainty.
Can I get a clarification on the following: The rules on dueling state that, when focusing from your deck you do so without looking at the card being focused. The game area knowledge section states that a player is normally entitled to know the title text and stats of cards in their focus pool. My assumption is that, once I have focused from the top of my deck I am allowed to look at the card that has been focused - is this correct? Further, if I focus a card from the top of my deck that 'may be focused face up' am I allowed to focus it face up?
I think You can only focus face up cards from Your hand or discard pile...
After a card has been focused, you can look at it from what I remember.
But only you, you shouldn't show it to your opponent until someone strikes.
Well, unless you can look at the card you're focusing from the top of your deck and decide whether or not you should focus it face-up or face-down, Smoke and Mirrors is unplayable.
So, with the rules as they stand: Smoke and Mirrors is unplayable.
0.0.3. To focus, a player either chooses a card from his or her hand, or takes the top card of his or her Fate deck without looking at it, and puts it face–down in a special focused cards area. Focusing is not “playing” the card.
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You just focus S&M from hand only
You can't focus from your deck if you're playing S&M.
why?
Because you might focus it.
And then you lose the duel.
why?
Because you've focused a 0 fo card.
You - by its text may focus it face up (instead default face down)
Not if you do so from the top of the deck.
You're not allowed to look at it until after it's been focused.
if you foucs it face down from deck, when you reveal cards its just considered 0FV without its text
as its text is conditional
so it is as I have feared
Right. So you lose the duel.
unless your oponent has 0FV card in such slot as well 😄
I think a change to the Rules is required.
To clarify, Gilador isn't speaking in Rules absolutes when saying these things about Smoke n Mirrors, just in likelihoods and strategic logical outcomes.
No changes are required. This card is just a coaster
and lets forget about it
Not really.
The only card affected by the rule that you can't decide whether to focus a card from the top of your deck face-up or face-down is Smoke and Mirrors.
what change do You have in mind?
In Diamond it was also 0FV card while focused from
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Yes, but in Diamond, you only ever focused from hand.
And it's a Reaction.
And we're talking about Onyx, not Diamond.
(And maybe 20F)
I run one copy, and i was runing one copy even in 20f
So in Onyx this card is 0FV while focused from deck, or you use its trai while focusing it faceup from your hand
Who tf would play that?
I have it under stronghold...
it there would be a focus effect: kill 10 guys, people woukd play it as meta
The fact that it can only work if focused from hand keeps the original intent of it being a Reaction that you play from hand
Gah
It's a niche card, but there's nothing wrong with it.
It's useless.
but you may focus it face up, and even should do it
/from hand/
that is a sure think when i get it in my hand 😄
If the rule that only affects that one card is changed, it becomes useful.
I think its not only that one card
Well, only one in 20F.
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In Onyx there is also that one
I think these cards just need an errata to be focused face up only from hand, then that would clear it up
That doesn't make Smoke and Mirrors playable.
The Rules need to be changed so that you can look at the top card of the deck before you decide whether to focus face-up or face-down.
Again, focusing face-up from deck is too hard without changing the rules
"too hard"? No: too dangerous
A way would be to give you the choice to focus from top of deck and flip it face up for all to see
Locking you into such effects whether you like it or not
That doesn't work either
That's a drastic change.
You're allowed to look at the card after you've focused it anyway
So it's not a change to your knowledge of the game state.
So, all previous cards with this mechanic were given Oracle text that includes "from hand" (see, inter alia, "No More Games, Yasuki", Channeling Void, and Chi Strike). That's [almost always] redundant, so they opted out of that text for S&M. Regardless, you cannot invoke traits (or announce actions) on face-down cards (even if you happen to know what they are).
Er.
No.
Your hand is face down
So you absolutely can "invoke traits on face-down cards"
What is wrong with changing the Rules so that, after you decide to focus from the top of the deck, you can look at it, so you can focus it face-up?
The Rules are a fungible document.
I suggested this just to make sure this question doesn't come up anymore. Not to make Smoke and Mirrors useable from deck.
Does this mean you don't want to invest in my Comprehensive Rules NFTs? Just think, you could own "from"! ;P
Fuck no.
The argument from design here is that 20F Smoke and Mirrors works like it does because it's a sneaky attempt to recreate a Reaction without using that word.
Wait, III OWN "FROM" and " WOO" , you can't copy or steal this
Are we seriously posting a mass discussion for changing the way the rules work over a single sub par card?
Yeah, and one that @Brook Cunningham and I failed to pick up while reviewing 20F.
hahahahaha nice one indeed ;D
Honestly, I don't think there's a problem to solve here. If you focus S&M (or Zanshin, in Onyx) off the top of your deck, you will have a sad. Yes, arguably, that means those are bad cards (although there's a niche case for laundering them under the Dragon box so you know when you have them, and people can always opt to gamble that they didn't topdeck them otherwise).
Answers on: Zanshin
They are hardly unique in the annals of bad or extremely niche L5R cards.
Or even bad or extremely niche L5R dueling support cards.
Or you could change the Rules so that they're playable.
"Some cards just suck."
-Confucius, probably.
just wanna drop this joke and run away
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No.
It's just whole change for dueling in 20F/Onyx
becasue of one stupid card
It affects nothing except this card.
And Zanshin.
You're allowed to look at the card after you've focused it.
It doesn't let you change whether or not you do focus it.
It changes as it shows you cards that you shouldnt see
before end of duel
Focus effects are also already a thing in dueling across various editions for the exact sceanrio of either playing from hand OR deck.
You're telling me that when you focus in a physical 20F game, you take the card off the top of your deck, place it on the table, then pick it up and look at it - as the Rules say you're allowed to do - rather than looking at it before you place it face-down on the table?
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Yes.
lol
Weirdo.
You may look at cards you have focused. Until you have focused the card, you may not look at it.
peeper no peeping!
As a dueling fanatic, this matters to me as im able to count/predict how many (X) fvs i have left in the deck
But usually i look at it face down, utter a "hmmm!" Knowing i cant interact with that card until it is revealed at the end of the duel
Zanshin is great card for its interrupt only 😄 as it stops fears/rangeds. And it saved me so many times as focus from hand. As it stops Duelists that challenged you with same Chi or even Chi+1.
I love getting that RUSH of excitement when you're able to say " FOCUSFROMHAND,STRIKE,HEEEEEE,EEEEE"
Its similiar feeling as playing 5FV from this one against same chi guy who challenged you 😄
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i may be a bit biased, but i played a lot against duelers in old early onyx
this one is also +5F for tacticians
and Courage, and Honor 😄 good textless card 😄
That card is unstoppable in a tac deck, so good
This girl with such bonus broke so many Provinces (and won me some tourneys with blitz)
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8/5, bahaha
ya shes so good
I’m glad to see that I can still spark some level of discussion 😅. So in summary: Yes, I can look at a card that I focused from deck after I focus it. But No, I cannot choose to focus a card from deck face up as I won’t find out if that’s a legal option until it’s too late. Follow up question (currently hypothetical as I don’t know of any Onyx cards that can do it): If the top card of my deck is turned face up before I focus, could I then trigger it’s ‘focus face up’ effects when focusing it from deck?
In case of Zanshin or Smoke? Only if there's an effect that could you allow to play cards from top of your deck as they are in your hand.
Because even if card if face-up on top of your Fate deck, you can't play their abilities or trigger effects from it.
I’d argue that. Under Onyx wording Zanshin & Smoke (and the other cards like them) are explicitly allowed to be focused face up by their own text. If I understand correctly, the reason you can’t use them when they are on top of your deck is that you can’t (under the good faith rule) focus a card face up unless the card allows you to do so & since you won’t know what the card is until after it’s focused you’re stuck. This changes if the card is already face up (although I can’t think of anything that flips your top fate card and leaves it there); if the card is ‘publicly’ known to be allowed to be focused face up then you should be able to declare it as a face up focus in good faith.
that is an interesting take that I wanted to also make but regarding a little different matter... /more of it later after prewievs of ROU will be finished/
You can't play card from out of play area (even if face up) unless card or rule allows you - so thats why you cant play abilities from discard.
face up card on top of fate is just revealed
You can't use text from face-up card on top of your deck unless card says otherwise.
Bit late for the discussion, but just to add my 2 cents to the topic of focus face-up from hand: there's also Eroded Morale
Yeah that card also exists....
also when focusing face-up card from top of deck, its faceup text is invisible for a game at this moment, and card you are focusing is placed face down in focus area
0.0.3. To focus, a player either chooses a card from his or her hand, or takes the top card of his or her Fate deck without looking at it, and puts it face–down in a special focused cards area. Focusing is not “playing” the card.
at least it is how i understand it.
but smarter ones must answer this
Yes.
"without looking at it" is pretty key, here.
I mean, that could very easily be changed to:
0.0.3. To focus, a player either chooses a card from his or her hand, or takes the top card of his or her Fate deck and looks at it, and puts it face–down in a special focused cards area. Focusing is not “playing” the card.
As the Rules stand, however, you cannot focus face-up from the top of the deck.