idk which set it is, its a spider ninja who has the void keyword and those all track with isawa kaede being the master of void
what is "invest"?
Onyx Lives #rules-questions
Messages from the Onyx Lives #rules-questions Discord channel, copied for Oracle of the Void. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings and the rulebooks may differ.
It's in the 20F Comprehensive Rules that Doc linked you in the Sun and Moon discord "general-chat" channel. I know it's quite lengthy, but search the PDF for the word. 🙂
is ninube kaede, isawa kaede?
Answers on: Ninube Kaede
Which set? And the original Ninube was Isawa Kaede's mother, I know from the RPG. 😛
Officially Goju Ninube's daughter, potentially the real deal
Or since it deals with the darkness and face/name-stealing stuff, a mix of both.
ok thats really awsome. currently trying to figure out what stronghold i wanna use
Well, Isawa Kaede became Oracle of the Void. I don't recall her ever falling to the Shadow, but post-Onyx, who knows? Seems unlikely though. She was so far swung to the side of light, rather than neutrality, it forced the creation of a Dark Oracle of the Void to balance her.
My guess would be part of the essence of Ninube got sentient, decided she was her daughter, stole Kaede's name and part of her power and joined the Spider clan. Or something similar.
Last I remembered that Kaede passed on after Naseru became emperor. So maybe it's just another copycat ninube. Not isawa kaede... per say
Do Mantis Personalities (with Mantis mon on card) count as having Clan Alignment or not in Onyx Revisited?
as far as i have heard, untill they have a stronghold its counted as unalligned
So in Onyx Extended they have Clan Alignment but in Onyx Arc not? So in Onyx Arc i may buy any Mantis Personality for its printed cost only? Just asking because when we got Onyx stuff un 2015 we got information that Mantis is still Clan Alignment just because of this reason. Even if theres no Mantis Stronghold in base Onyx.
Just need confirmation about this.
in Onyx arc we are not treating Mantis as a clan alignment. They can be bought for their base gold cost.
I feel attacked by that statement. Jk. Question though, i saw tsuruchi jinrai being able to reduce the gold cost of a mantis clan personality while being legal in onyx? Does that mean that since mantis is no longer a clan alignment, that part of his ability is effectively null?
i'm guessing it's not a clan alignment since there's no SH but maybe "Mantis Clan" is still a targetable keyword?
and the clan champ too 😭
i thought they removed the clan keywords in ivory? or is it that they still have the keyword for purposes of these edgecases?
at least yoritomo will still be able to draw and still give the +1F to followers 🙂
Just check "clan alignment" in 20f comprehensive rules
[attachment: image.png]
So question is if a Mantis isn't on a list of Clan Alignment, does a Mantis mon provide Mantis Clan keyword to a Personality.
eg in 20F:
[attachment: image.png]
In Onyx Mantis is just replaced by Akasha
I think that there's a distinction to be made while discussing this between a player's Clan Alignment, defined by your SH choice during deckbuilding, and a Personality's Clan Alignment, defined by mon/keyword
though, thinking about it, there's still the whole "out-of-clan increase" to price that doesn't apply to Unaligned, right?
It's the main reason of my question because if there's no Clan Alignment in list, a Mantis Personality is treated as Unaligned so should costed its base cost only. Like eg a Dragonfly guy
[attachment: printing_12178_1_details.png]
When we got Onyx stuff for the first time in 2015 i got info that Mantis guys, even without legal Stronghold, should be treated as guys with Clan Alignment so should cost 2GC more
So, there's some work being done to clean up the Comprehensive Rules.
Currently: Anything with a clan mon has the corresponding keyword (for stuff like Jinrai). But Personalities only have a Clan Alignment (for cost purposes) if they have the alignment keyword of a faction with a legal Stronghold in the format being played.
I was also thinking Toturi ExpSCW, since he has a clan alignment that's legal in SCW, but is considered Unaligned for 20f (considered including him in my deck since he's also in one of the decks from your dropbox, ThA Thunder Dueling Darren, and I recall asking about Clan Alignment legality)
Toturi has Toturi's Army Clan Alignment in Legacy, but in 20F and Onyx he is Unaligned.
So in 20F and Onyx you pay his printed cost.
Yep. He has the Toturi's Army keyword, but if there is no legal TA Stronghold, that's not a "Clan Alignment".
Similarly, there's no legal Mantis SH in Onyx, that's why I'm bringing him up
Thank you for the clarification
woohoo time to bring back the mantis via tsuruchi
Since there is a mantis sensei, would that be an all clans sensei?
Since for now mantis is considered unaligned?
That Sensei is unusable in the current environment, if it is Mantis only
If you mean Minori Sensei; no (currently) legal deck in onyx can include this card.
That's the one I was referring to.
so that just means we Mantis players just have to bring back the Mantis before the end of onyx so we can use Minori Sensei again 🤔
https://tenor.com/view/wait-hamilton-just-you-wait-hold-on-patience-gif-17741777
Question:
to prevent enemy card draw you need= a.) Compassion AND Opposed ? b.) Compassion OR Opposed?
[attachment: image.png]
If either condition is fulfilled the enemy player will draw !Compassion = draw Unopposed = draw
So the answer is (a)
is the recruit action while opposed only?
or rather if something tells you to recruit in battle, does it have to be opposed?
if something lets you Recruit in battle, it can be used even if unopposed unless it says differently; note the Reserve keyword requires opposition
what's your example?
Return to serve
Answers on: Shokansuru
for "Response" actions, if its printed on a personality does he have to be at the battlefield to trigger the ability?
Eg. Shokansuru
yes, Ivory rules require the source of the action be present at a battle unless it has the "Home" keyword (can be used during battle even if the source is at home, as long as you otherwise have presence), "Remote" (can be used from any location including Home, as long as you otherwise have presence), or the "Absent" keyword (can be used during battle even if you have no presence at the current battle)
Ah simplification of the rules
How does Veteran Gunso interact with Black Watch Sensei ?
Answers on: Veteran Gunso, Black Watch Sensei
[attachment: RtR_017.png]
[attachment: Sensei.png]
Example : for a 4F/2C personality is the "switch effect" a -2F penalty ?
Yes, switching = setting to a value = applying an appropriate bonus or penalty.
OK, then same thing for courage beyon question and others cards like those. Thanks !
Only time it is not a penalty is when the card states: Permanently set target's Strength to X.
Sorry, not true. It is also a bonus/penalty in that case, too (see the middle part of my equation above).
Ok, I was under the impression that card like this weren't giving away penalties or bonuses when they specify Permanently.... the more you know
Yep. "Permanently" is just shorthand for "until the end of the game" for the stated duration of an ongoing effect (in this case, a bonus or penalty) that's lasting a different length of time than the default "end of turn" duration.
would such a negation then be until end-of-turn, after which it returns to the new permanently set value?
duration would depend on the wording of the negation effect, but end of turn is default, yes
Don't think I've got any cards in any decks of mine that play with that but good to know
Question:
Does [Fields of Slaughter] gain +2 honor EXTRA per card destroyed in battle Resolution?
[attachment: image.png]
Answers on: Fields of Slaughter
Yep. That gain is separate from Resolution's gains.
I think he is asking if it grants 4 honor in resolution instead of the normal 2
Yes and no? Resolution grants 2, and this Terrain's triggered trait will also pop off 2 every time resolution destroys a card. So that's 4 total, but one isn't a substitute of the other, if you follow?
Oh I see.
So it's a super battle honor card
and the "terrain is in play during Resoultion" right?
Yep. Terrains don't bail until after.
question, is this one big honor loss or a lot of tiny honor losses?
edit: Corpse Monstrosity
added card title so that other players can easily find this rules question and ruling
[attachment: image.png]
Answers on: Corpse Monstrosity
Ring of the void refers to spells followers items when it says in play right? Like I have 3 things attached to a guy and 3 cards in my hand I can then play ring of the void? (I just want to make sure that's how it enters play)
Answers on: Ring of the Void
this is correct
Perfect. Thank you sir
Also Kata or similiar Strategy cards that enter play and stay on the table.
Oh I didn't realize they were a thing in this Arc. Cool, I'll keep a look out
One honor loss.
thanks kempy
Would both the lobby action and this one satisfy the conditions for Ring of air?
[attachment: Screenshot_20230927_091531_Adobe_Acrobat.jpg]
Answers on: Ring of Air
In a single turn obviously
do not mistake "Lobby" actions for "Favor" actions; they are two separate types
Ok that's definitely what I was looking to make sure. So lobby action isn't a favor action itself
Correct.
Cool cool.
Just to clarify. If you have 3 attachments in play and 3 cards (including RoV) you can't bring it into play. It has to be equal cards after RoV enters play. So basically if you have 3 attachments in play, you need to have 4 cards in hand (including RoV)
Right has to be balanced.
Question:
Does [Stand United] work if I target "unaligned" personalities?
Answers on: Stand United!
[attachment: image.png]
yes, it is like the original United in that way
same with [Mutual Support]? ||Im not doing anything...||
[attachment: image.png]
Card: [ Daigotsu Shikenuro, The Silk Fever ] Question:
Can Shikenuro use his ability while he is at the current battlefield just to straighten himself?
[attachment: image.png]
Answers on: Daigotsu Shikenuro, the Silk Fever
Nope. This one says with different Clan Aligntment. So Personalities you target must have alignment.
Anyway its just solid common for Draft.
For me its legal.
I think so? There's a period between the moving and the straightening and no "if he moved"
Thanks Kempy & Daisuke 👍
Not sure, the action is the movement after all, with the straightening as an option to it, so it would follow that if you can't do the first, then you can't do the second. Of course, if TO considers it legal, I'll yield. (I might be thinking of how the LCG works there, too)
Separate effects from the same action, so yes, this works.
If it were otherwise, he'd say "...move to the current battlefield to straighten him..." or "If he moved, straighten him."
Yeah, sounds like I was definitely thinking of how the LCG works
To be fair, the majority of cards with abilities sort of like that have the second one conditional on the first. He's just trying to show off.
Well, it still costs a follower, and an undead one at, so for example the token goblin follower from the Goblin "Barracks" don't count
Thanks Qalyar and Marcus.
Follow Up question: May I use his ability even when Unopposed? So that I may do this weird combo a friend and I found?
Thanks Marcus and Qalyar. I'm mainly asking because of this... pay2win combo I'm discussing with a player
[ Defiant Ground ] would let me re-attach the follower destroyed by [ Daigotsu Shikenuro ] who then destroys the follower which gets re-attached by Defiant Ground. Over and Over (Paying all costs of course) but would allow multiple token followers to be generated by [ The Forgotten ] as well as Expendable or Destined keyword triggers if used with respective followers with those keywords.
[attachment: image.png] [attachment: image.png] [attachment: image.png]
Card: [ Like A Twig ] Question: The card says bow my target unit; that means at least my Personality has to be unbowed, right? I can still use it even if I have bowed attachments? If so and if the condition on the enemy unit is met, my whole unit then straightens?
[attachment: RtR_138.png]
yes, must be unbowed because its "bow to do something"
I want to say yes because undead hordes are cool, and because it's still needing to draw 3 cards with at most 3 copies out of at least 80, but on the other hand, doomstacks
Conversely, can I use it if the Personality is bowed but an attachment is unbowed?
I would say no to both instances, entire unit must be unbowed to pay costs
@Brook Cunningham
Bow Unit //=// Bow a Card
It also raises the question of if you can perform an action if the effect doesn't happen and thus doesn't affect the board state, not counting costs paid (in this case, you're neither moving nor straightening, which are the effects of the action)
Hmm.
[attachment: image.png]
"However, things that target a unit target only its Personality."
Only targets the Personality, but all the cards in the unit had to be able to bow to proceed past the "to".
Yep
So that means Like A Twig can only be used if my whole unit is unbowed?
As in, bowing as a cost is part of "Things that affect a unit"?
Correct.
Thanks, just making sure!
Can't use him while unopposed because you're unable to legally announce the action. Currently this is in the Onyx rules as Good Faith Rule element 0.3.
[attachment: image.png]
Thanks! We just wanted to make sure.
Also, [Defiant Ground] says "opposed" (from discard)
Shikensuro's ability doesn't target
it doesnt matter. just part of trait after dot allows to destroy any follower during battle with equal or lower force than one you equipped.
yes, you are correct
but if you want to "equip a follower from discard" that part specifies you need to be opposed
Right... but targeting isn't part of 0.3. Still have to meet the starting "if" conditional.
Ah, ok.
dang I missed that. Thanks!
question:
Can i declare an attack , declare no attackers/assignment, and use my cav guy to ABSENT ENGAGE move into the current battle field (from home)?
(even if it doesn't say Home?)
Card: [ Yamigatai ] Question: By "Put the [ Ring of Earth ] into play", is it correct to assume that it means from my hand and not from my deck or discard pile?
[attachment: image.png]
although Onyx version of the cavalry Absent Engage no longer has at any location in its wording, I would assume this should still be the case that you can still do that.
Assigning is still optional in general and you can declare an attack and not assign or move anyone anywhere for the fun of it.
[attachment: image.png] [attachment: image.png] [attachment: image.png]
Correct, it’s from hand
Yes. Onyx datasheet uses simplified descriptions of some keywords. For more detailed info just check 20F CR.
The Rulebook ability doesn't need to say "Home"; that keyword is only for abilities on cards in units, overriding the requirement for them to be at the Battlefield by Rule of Location.
Oh?
So, how about this=
Lion attacks Crab
Battlefield A: Has crab vs lion, 1 v 1
Battlefield B: Lion 1 unopposed.
Battlefield B resolves first.
Pass engage Crab pass Lion plays [Kano's March](Roj), targeting Crab person at battlefield A (to bring him into battlefield B)
Can Crab play [unyielding stance] (rtr) to negate the movement?
(No, because its not absent interrupt? Or yes because interrupts dont require rule of location?)
(Isnt this the Same thing with the whole [final sacrifice] situation/ discussion?)
Or does this only apply to cav-rulebook-keyword?
Cavalry is Absent. If you have Absent Interrupt you may play it also without presence.
Player's abilities shouldn't have Home.
[attachment: image.png]
If this is correct in terms of the interrupt, then Kanos March should either straighten the unit or personality of any enemy personality it brings in, and/or gain Tactical
[attachment: image.png]
Why straighten?
In the scenario, Crab can't Interrupt because he lacks Presence and Interrupt lacks Absent.
If there was another way to stop the movement, though, it would cause something of a paradox, I agree. 😛 Not sure how straightening or Tactical solves that? Or was that not your issue?
Bringing in a bowed peep is bad, every other provoke straightens at least the personality
Card balance, not rules
That's the point - bring someone in to die
Ah, I see. And it's worse because you can do it where they don't have Presence and therefore can't non-Absent Interrupt to stop it. I'm more worried about what happens if something does stop the movement. :/
Yup that can be just a way of execution a bowed enemy... i think there were other "hooks" like that in past but they were straightening enemy units. Cause enemy doesent wants it there and its for he's disatvantage (or at last should ) and if the straightening is a balancing factor
Elite laughs 😉
who would bring enemies Elite unit?
unless for an action execution like duel or some chi death